Question for X-SDA or knowledgeable Catholic

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I sure would like to know what church peter was part of if not the catholic church. It looks like christian777 can’t even come to terms on that.

Matt
There is nothing to come to term with. Peter was of the church that kept all the commandments of God. Including the Sabbath. The real question is, what will God have us to do? Not what we like or think is right.
 
There is nothing to come to term with. Peter was of the church that kept all the commandments of God. Including the Sabbath. The real question is, what will God have us to do? Not what we like or think is right.
You have absolutely no proof that that the early church kept the sabbath and plenty of proof that they didn’t…But you gotta keep to the company line! Yawn zzzzzzzzz
 
I guess my quesiton is - why did it take until 1863 for Joseph Bates, James White, Ellen G. White, and J. N. Andrews to see the error of the Catholic Church’s ways? I also pose this question to any protestant as well. Why did it take 1500 years after Christ established His Chruch on earth for Martin Luther to believe that he was right and the rest of the Church was wrong?

SDA’s also fall into the fallacy of Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone) - apparently they do not realize that the traditions of the Catholic Church were around prior to the New Testament ever being written down.

Just saying…🙂
 
Take note note, if a man come to you with a gun you would try to excape but if he come to you with a bible what would you do? Do you think satan wants you running?
Actually, if he were offering to give me the gun, I might take him on up on it. Been a lot of burglaries in our neighborhood.

The last group that came to my door with a Bible were Mormons. I offered to pray with them, we had a nice talk, they gave me one of their Books of Mormon but didn’t accept my return offer of a Catechism. They were nice boys, hope they’re doing well.
How did the church treat the christians that tried to live by the bible? Here is a hint, Foxes book of martyrs.
Those were medieval men with medieval mindsets, and such social upheaval as the Reformation brougth forth political strife and bloodletting on both sides. Those violent days characterized the violent men who lived during them. If the Reformation had happened 30 years ago instead of 500, it would’ve been far less bloody and we’d all be on better terms. with one another.
 
It should be clear that the Lord’s Day is not Sunday. The lord’s Day is Sabbath, Mat. 12:8For the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath day.
It should also be noted that Act 20:7 does not support Sunday worship either.
Acts20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
Please note that the Jewish day started at evening, so that the first day started around 6 pm, so for us that would be Saturday night at 12: that they are taking about. It would also indicate that they were there for Sabbath worship and continued pass sunset into the first day of the week because Paul was leaving the next day.
Their worship was the breaking of bread on the first day of the week (not the last day of the week). The laws of Mosaic worship gave way to the laws of Messianic worship. Sacrificial rights involiving the blood of animals gave way the the Eucharistic sacrifice of Christ (Matt. 26:26-28; Mark. 14:22,24; Luke 22;19-20; 1 Cor. 11:24-25) .

If, then, perfection came through the levitical priesthood, on the basis of which the people received the law, what need would there still have been for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not reckoned according to the order of Aaron? When there is a change of priesthood, there is necessarily a change of law as well. Now he of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, of which no member ever officiated at the altar. It is clear that our Lord arose from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. It is even more obvious if another priest is raised up after the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become so, not by a law expressed in a commandment concerning physical descent but by the power of a life that cannot be destroyed. For it is testified: "You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek."On the one hand, a former commandment is annulled because of its weakness and uselessness, for the law brought nothing to perfection; on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. (Heb 7:11-19)
 
C77 has a very narrow boxed in view of everything .Never mind him trying to wrap his head around anything Catholic:eek:To him and others like him we are “the Great Satan”.So trying to get him accept even historical truths is like teaching a sheep to cha-cha-It just can’t be done.
Do be charitable. There are many who have grievances against someone in the Catholic Church and who take these out on any Catholic available, or against doctrine or tradition. If we are patient when they are not, our patience bears greater witness to the Truth.
 
There is nothing to come to term with. Peter was of the church that kept all the commandments of God. Including the Sabbath. The real question is, what will God have us to do? Not what we like or think is right.
God will have us obey the New Covenant, which fulfills and replaces the Old. We are no longer beholden to the form of Mosaic Law, though the substance remains. For example, the substance of separation from pagan worship remains, though the form changes. Levitical and Deuteronomic laws command to Israel to avoid certain clothing and foods to separate themselves from the pagan tribes who lived around them. That separation is acheived for 1st Century Christians by avoiding food offered to idols and avoiding imitating the pagans in behavior. Note that Paul writes that Christians are not beholden to ritual washings or purification by avoiding certain foods (ie, Col 2:16, Heb 9:10). Thus the expression changes, not the intent.
Please note that the Jewish day started at evening, so that the first day started around 6 pm, so for us that would be Saturday night at 12: that they are taking about. It would also indicate that they were there for Sabbath worship and continued pass sunset into the first day of the week because Paul was leaving the next day.
If the Sabbath day runs from Saturday at sunset to Sunday at sunset, so that it includes Saturday night at midnight, then all services that take place within that time period comprise worship on the Sabbath. Is that correct?
 
Their worship was the breaking of bread on the first day of the week (not the last day of the week). The laws of Mosaic worship gave way to the laws of Messianic worship. Sacrificial rights involiving the blood of animals gave way the the Eucharistic sacrifice of Christ (Matt. 26:26-28; Mark. 14:22,24; Luke 22;19-20; 1 Cor. 11:24-25) .

If, then, perfection came through the levitical priesthood, on the basis of which the people received the law, what need would there still have been for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not reckoned according to the order of Aaron? When there is a change of priesthood, there is necessarily a change of law as well. Now he of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, of which no member ever officiated at the altar. It is clear that our Lord arose from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. It is even more obvious if another priest is raised up after the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become so, not by a law expressed in a commandment concerning physical descent but by the power of a life that cannot be destroyed. For it is testified: "You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek."On the one hand, a former commandment is annulled because of its weakness and uselessness, for the law brought nothing to perfection; on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. (Heb 7:11-19)
Precisely, ryan 👍; and such practices as almsgiving and divine praise which the Jews attached especially to the Sabbath have been transferred to the Day of Resurrection -as is seen in 1 Cor. 16. And there is, of course, the witness of the change from sabbath-keeping to worship on the Lord’s Day in the letter of St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Magnesians (c.a. A.D. 110); St. Ignatius, who with St. Polycarp was a hearer of St. John and the immediate successor of St. Peter to the bishopric of Antioch wrote: “If, then, those who walked in ancient customs came to a new hope, no longer sabbathing but living by the Lord’s Day, on which we came to life through Him and through His death. . .” Sunday worship can be seen in the Didache (A.D. 140): “On the Lord’s Day of the Lord gather together, break bread and give thanks after confessing you transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure.” It can be seen in the First Apology of St. Justin, Martyr (c.a. A.D. 146-155): “The Day of the Sun is the day on which we all gather in a common meeting, because it is the first day, the day on which God, changing darkness and matter, created the world, and it is the day on which Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.”

But, according to christian, these early Fathers hadn’t a clue on the subject.
 
I guess my quesiton is - why did it take until 1863 for Joseph Bates, James White, Ellen G. White, and J. N. Andrews to see the error of the Catholic Church’s ways? I also pose this question to any protestant as well. Why did it take 1500 years after Christ established His Chruch on earth for Martin Luther to believe that he was right and the rest of the Church was wrong?

SDA’s also fall into the fallacy of Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone) - apparently they do not realize that the traditions of the Catholic Church were around prior to the New Testament ever being written down.

Just saying…🙂
The errors of “the church” were always known. She succeeded by eradicating those who opposed her. It is estimated that she was responsible for more deaths than those in the world wars. Why would the church forbid persons from reading the bible and seek to kill those who made it available to the common people?
 
The errors of “the church” were always known. She succeeded by eradicating those who opposed her. It is estimated that she was responsible for more deaths than those in the world wars. Why would the church forbid persons from reading the bible and seek to kill those who made it available to the common people?
More rubbish from the rubbish squad.That has to be the most outrageous lie yet.No century ever has been bloodier then the twentieth.The body count was a amazingly high.You have two world wars and purges by the commies in both east and west.You have mechanized weapons that kill way more efficiently then a sword could,guns that fire multiple rounds and bombs that fall from the sky.Try another lie.That one will not fly.Beside the Black Death that decimated Europe the various wars if you add the outrageous amount of concocted deaths that have been added on by persons like you ,you would have and virtually next to no one left.Since logically and historically we know that did not happen we have yet another lie,a calumny,against Catholics.the amount of lies that have been promulgated by you and yours is rather large and rather sad.
 
The errors of “the church” were always known.
Weasel words - passive language and “always known”. By whom were these errors known, and was the response of those who knew of the errors an expression of correct doctrine or another error in itself?
She succeeded by eradicating those who opposed her.
You’re still here. Can you name the last person executed by the Catholic Church?
It is estimated that she was responsible for more deaths than those in the world wars.
Weasel claim: passive language. Also, I don’t believe you have the resources to verify this, so I’m pulling the baloney card and asking for your source.

Scholarly sources cited on wikipedia estimate total deaths between the two world wars at 60 to 70 million. Your accounting must surpass that number to legitimize your claim. As the context of your claim is that the Church killed those who opposed her on religious grounds, you’re allowed to include those who were killed by official mandate of the church for religious reasons.

You may also include, but please note separately:
  • Those condemned via judicial magistrate for civil crimes committed
  • Active combatants who were not Christian (ie, the 12,000 Muslim soldiers killed in the Battle of Tours)
  • Those condemned for preaching doctrines that do not bolster either a general Christian view or your own specific understanding of Christianity. This includes, but is not limited to, pagans.
  • Combatants killed in purely defensive actions, regardless of religious affiliation (ie, those Protestants shot by the U.S. Army while attempting to burn down Catholic churches in the Philadelphia riots of 1844)
Why would the church forbid persons from reading the bible and seek to kill those who made it available to the common people?
If the sole grievance the Church had against the heretics was reading from the Bible and making it available to the common people, this would be a terrible legacy.

Your description, however, does not describe the majority of heretical groups, nor does it even include all of the Reformers. Take John of Leiden, who, after leading a popular Reformist revolt in Munster, declared himself king and instituted what amounts to mandatory rape and concubinage of unmarried women. He was killed following defeat by Catholic military forces.

There is the more ancient case of Priscillian, who espoused (from the Bible, he argued) a view that matter is evil, spirit is good, and each human has two opposing divine forces living within him, driven by the opposing deities of the Father and the Son. Priscillian took Satan as coequal with the Father worshipped by the Israelites, and taught that salvation came through fleeing the domination of matter. Is this Christian doctrine? He was executed for performing magic, so I don’t know if that constitutes religious persecution by your understanding.

Lastly, if the Catholic Church tried so hard for millenia to suppress the spread of the Word, why would such a Church continue to publish a Bible that is identical to Protestant Bibles of the same translation, minus the Deuterocanonicals? If you take a Catholic RSV and a Protestant RSV, the New Testaments are identical. Why would we not alter the Scriptures? Indeed, if the Catholic Church is so intrinsically evil, why do you believe that the Bibles published today are faithful replicas of those originally written?
 
More rubbish from the rubbish squad.That has to be the most outrageous lie yet.No century ever has been bloodier then the twentieth.The body count was a amazingly high.You have two world wars and purges by the commies in both east and west.You have mechanized weapons that kill way more efficiently then a sword could,guns that fire multiple rounds and bombs that fall from the sky.Try another lie.That one will not fly.Beside the Black Death that decimated Europe the various wars if you add the outrageous amount of concocted deaths that have been added on by persons like you ,you would have and virtually next to no one left.Since logically and historically we know that did not happen we have yet another lie,a calumny,against Catholics.the amount of lies that have been promulgated by you and yours is rather large and rather sad.
Did you realize that you started with denying that the church killed more person than those killed in the twentieth century than denying that the church was responsible for the death of many? Does that then mean that deep down you admit that the church did kill many Christians? Please note that this is not to put you down or any other catholic for that matter but we need to take a close look at the evidence.
Pro 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.
Christ Himself said. Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. If the elect can be in trouble what about us? Are we absolutely sure we have it right?
The church always site it age as one reason for it to be accepted as the church of God. Here are two things to consider.
  1. Age does not guarantee that she was not contaminated. For Paul said. Thess. 2: 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. This clearly states that things started to go wrong early. Now again the point is made that the one who would be against God would come out of the last of the kingdoms spoken of by Daniels, so that age is no guarantee against error. Dan. 7:25 He shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. In context you would see that this came out of Rome and there is of old. It is not age that counts.
  2. The true church of God would go into hiding for a period of time.
    Rev. 12: 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
    5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
    6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
    A careful look woul show that this is a description of the fall of satan and his attempt to kill Jesus by Herod. What is important here is that the woman (church) that Christ is of goes into the wilderness for a while. Is it not the true church that is leading always, for she is in hiding for a wide, escaping the attacked of the devil.
 
Did you realize that you started with denying that the church killed more person than those killed in the twentieth century
Rhetorical error: Proof by assertion. I could likewise ask “Do you still do terrible things to your dog with a fork?” You previously argued that the Catholic Church is responsible for more deaths than those in the two World Wars combined. We await the statistical evidence, the accounting, and until such time cannot accept such a claim.
than denying that the church was responsible for the death of many?
Actually, that wasn’t denied. We know that Catholic forces killed thousands of Muslims in defense against the Moorish invasion of Europe.
Does that then mean that deep down you admit that the church did kill many Christians?
Rhetorical error: Begging the question. When you present your accounting of the deaths caused by the Catholic Church, we will examine your specific line items of number of Christians killed.
Please note that this is not to put you down or any other catholic for that matter but we need to take a close look at the evidence.
Which in the form of body counts should be categorical and numeric.
Pro 14:12
…
Mat 24:24
Rhetorical error: Premise-Conclusion gap. Your argument is of the form:
  1. Cite verse from Scripture condemning falsehood
  2. Condemn Catholicism as that falsehood
Where is the specific evidence linking the Catholic Church to these passages from Scripture?
The church always site it age as one reason for it to be accepted as the church of God. Here are two things to consider.
  1. Age does not guarantee that she was not contaminated. For Paul said.
    Thess. 2: 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. This clearly states that things started to go wrong early.
Your evidence is non-specific. Paul elsewhere also wrote about heretical groups with more specificity, including those who focused on genealogies (1 Tm 1:4) and those continued to adhere to Mosaic Law (Ti 3:9). Given Gnostic texts that have survived to this day, it is thought that genealogies (which feature strongly in Gnostic cosmology) in Timothy refer to Gnostic groups who we know were active even before the time of Christ and who subsequently adopted a Christological stance. And we know that Jewish converts continually had to be reminded that they were freed of the obligations of the Mosaic Law. From early Christian writers - those who identify themselves as followers of Christ and leaders of congregations - we know of other groups who taught heretical doctrines. So it is not that ‘things started to go wrong early’ but rather that divergent understandings arose and asserted themselves potently enough to be considered a threat to the early Church. However, in order to include the Catholic Church in these groups, one must provide specific condemnation as is done for the Gnostics in Paul’s letter to Timothy, as well as for the Docetists in the letters of Ignatius of Antioch (as one example).
Dan. 7:25 … In context you would see that this came out of Rome and there is of old. It is not age that counts.
The context of Daniel 7:25 is the 7th century BC and is more immediate to the Greeks and Seleucids than to the Roman Empire. If the Roman Empire is included, we know of many villains among the emperors who martyred Christians. Again, this does not uniquely show the Catholic Church as contemptible person.
  1. The true church of God would go into hiding for a period of time.
The citation of Rev 12 is appropriate, but your interpretation is vague. The Catholic Church was underground for quite some time, though where the local magistrate had been converted it could have a more visible presence.
Is it not the true church that is leading always, for she is in hiding for a wide, escaping the attacked of the devil.
And often not escaping. Consider, again, the martyrs.
 
To losh14
Here is some information for you. Some others go as far as 95 million but the amount is not that important to me. The issue is that it happened and as far as I know God does not act in that way. These acts and the doctrines of the church put it outside the will of God for His people. Note that I am not saying that there are not christians in the Catholic Church, for there may be more committed to God than I am, but the things that the church hold to be true fall short of the truth and perfect will of God…

74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:U6WMXyYDyLQJ:www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/estimates.doc+estiamtes+of+the+number+killed+by+the+papacy&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk
 
Here is some information for you. Some others go as far as 95 million but the amount is not that important to me.
Thank you for posting a link. While it gives something of an accounting, I am inclined to take the list with a heavy grain of salt.

The author, David A. Plaisted, is a professor of Computer Science at UNC. Hardly an historian.

His list comprises 9 chapters, taken from 13 cited sources (and others that, for whatever reason, are not cited). There is at least one error in the list of sources as well - “The History of the Ancient Christians” by Perrin is cited as being written in 1618, however it was actually authored in 1847 and is titled “History of the Ancient Christians inhabiting the valleys of the Alps”. A facsimile of the edition originally belonging to the New York Public Library is available on Google Books.

So of these 13 cited, 12 were written after 1830 by American Protestants. Of these 12, 7 were written during a time of Nativist sentiment against Catholic immigrants that at times exploded in violence (as in the Philadelphia riots of 1844). This Nativism voiced itself politically as well, through the Know-Nothing Party, through support for the Ku Klux Klan and its lynchings, and through various local and national movements to prohibit Catholics from holding office, settling in the West, or even bringing a Bible translation other than the KJV into public schools.

Even looking at the titles of the sources - “Popery the Enemy of Civil and Religious Liberty”, “The American Textbook of Popery”, “History of Romanism” - I wonder whether these historical sources at best describe the anti-Catholic sentiment of the mid-19th to mid-20th century, rather than anything that actually occured before the United States came into existence.

I also wonder how a professor - in any good conscience - could use such questionable sources in putting forth an argument. Perhaps he is a good mathematician, but his critical reasoning skills are awful.

So you have given me a document, written by a non-historian, based predominantly upon a list of polemically-motivated, incitatory sources written for the purpose of arousing anti-Catholic sentiment, written by people who are not historians, who do not consult primary historical sources. I am not surprised that these not only include lists of deaths allegedly caused by the Catholic Church, but I am also not surprised that they vary so greatly in scope. To have estimates that vary from 50 million to 150 million calls into question the techniques used to measure and account for deaths, or even whether such techniques were actually used.

As I read the document, I find the author generally accepts wholesale whatever these 19th century non-historians argued was the number. He does not - surprisingly, for a computer science professor - utilize any sort of sampling technique nor evaluate the techniques used by his source.

As a statistician - one who actually performs numerical analysis for a living - I am astonished by his sixth chapter - “An estimate based on population growth” - which uses entirely rudimentary methods to estimate rates of population growth and the impact of persecutions upon that growth.

So I’m wondering whether it’s even worth it to build an accounting table from this document.

It’s also interesting that the author goes to great pains to attempt to tie Albigensians, Waldensians and Bogomils as some historic ‘lost thread’ or ‘hidden church’. I will say that of all the heretical groups persecuted, the Waldensians probably deserved it the least - but I don’t think you can argue that the Bogomils or Albigensians were your precursors and still adhere to a Christian theology. These latter groups were subsets of Catharism, which viewed the God of the Old Testament as Satan and saw the Father and the Son in conflict with one another. Salvation for a Catharii meant sloughing off physical matter - and so marriage was forbidden, starving oneself was seen as a good thing, and suicide was welcomed. Surely you don’t hold to such doctrines today? If one cites such a theology as part of one’s theological history, how does one get from Scripture to today in an unbroken method?
 
The issue is that it happened and as far as I know God does not act in that way.
God does not kill people? Have you read the Old Testament?

It was one thing when Christians in the first-century willingly went to their deaths under Imperial Rome. We commemorate and celebrate these martyrs for their sacrifice.

However, when a Christian political leader, with a militia at his disposal and carrying the responsibility of protecting thousands of lives, is faced with a marauding Moorish army who will devastate the land, murder innocents and enslave and forcibly convert those who survive, should he make the same choice to lay down arms and surrender and die? Jesus commands us to turn the other cheek, but does he command us to allow innocent lives to be lost when they could be spared?

Likewise, should a Christian religious leader tolerate the rising of heresy (the dualism of the Albigensians, for example) without arguing against it? The Catholic Church engaged in 10 years of deténte with the Catharii - public discussions and debates, non-violent rebukes - before violence erupted. The first violent act was that of the Catharii, assassinating a Papal Legate. Would the true Christian church allow its leadership to be killed by those who held the Gospel in contempt?
These acts and the doctrines of the church put it outside the will of God for His people.
Are you suggesting that we Catholics who live in the 21st century and have never personally taken a life are responsible for the blood of those who died centuries ago? Will God have His revenge against us for actions we, personally, did not commit?
Note that I am not saying that there are not christians in the Catholic Church, for there may be more committed to God than I am, but the things that the church hold to be true fall short of the truth and perfect will of God.
And you can put forth this argument without calling the blood of many on the hands of those who had no part in it. You can also do it without citing biased writings and rekindling a spirit of hatred. You can indeed oppose the Catholic Church in love, but you cannot do it in a spirit of love by referring to texts that argue “Popery” as the enemy of civil and religious liberty.

Was innocent blood shed by Catholics in the Middle Ages? Yes, and by Muslim, non-Catholic (heretic or otherwise). Bloodshed was a fact of the age, not unique to Catholicism nor required by it. Only recently in human history has conflict truly had the possibilty of being settled without the loss of life.

Perhaps going forward we will learn to settle conflict without resort to falsehood.
 
The Catholic church has publicly apologized for the crusades, has any other religion?
 
This response is for Christian 777. I have been a Roman Catholic 61 years of my 65years of age. I left the Church to find the True Church several years ago. I looked for five years. Then one day on the way homefrom my church of choice at that time I could hear the Lordf say to me "why don’t you study my Church as you have looking tt others. When I went back in time to the Apostles and immedately afterh them, the Early Fathers, I could only come away with the full knowledge of Christ’s Church: the Roman Catholic Church. I ask God’s mercy to be shed on those who have been called to believe but have not. To those who are sitting on the fence, I commend you to do a real study of The Church. Just as Scott Hahn, a famous, former Presybyterian Pastor and present Roman Catholic theologian and apologist, you too will see that the Catholic Church which was originally called The Way, then Christian, before being changed to Catholic meaning universal. Don’t throw stones when many of you are throwing stones from something you have heard or read after Christ had long been gone. Without the Catholic Oral tradition you would not have had written scriptures. When Christ and then the apostles were teaching,they didn’t have scriptures. The New Testament did not come around until 30-40 years after Christ died. Study what you arguing against before you run off without going back to the witnesses and those who immediately came after the witnesses. Martin Luther founded the True Church (The Lutheran Church) about fifteen hundred years after Christ.Who better knew what Christ taught; the Apostles and the Early Fathers or Martin Luther? Sorry folks; you have been led down a road by a zillion different denominations and preachers. Christ left one head of His Church and that wasn’t Martin Luther or Pat Robertson. God is Truth and there cannot be a zillion Truths. May God bless you and give you the grace to truly study the Catholic Church. Don’t just pay attention to what you have heard. Do your own study on the Internet. Your will find the documents from the first translated bible (Latin Vulgate) to the Early Fathers and the early heresies that they had to fight as well as the Catholic Catechism and why it was written. In other words do your homework instead of hand-me-down religions that have been passed along after Christ. May the Good Lord bless you and have mercy on you and I both.
 
The Church isn’t identified by the behaviour of it’s members so much as it’s historic role as the community that surrounded Christ since the Beginning and her relationship with theological constructs that are unique to the Christ Event.

Also the Church has visible boundaries and has always desired to be a light on a hill. St Paul teaches that the religion of the anti-christ is hidden, working in secret untill the end events. Then it and it’s leader will step out of the human shadows it occupied for thousands of years.

So silly to claim that an institution that desires to be as visible as possible for two millenia is one and the same as the one that can’t be seen and desires to be as invisible as possible for the last two millenia.

Even if the Church did kill millions it wouldn’t remove the signs that point to her as the One Church. Those kinds of arguments are based on emotional reasoning.
 
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