Question from a confused pagan on the Anti-Catholic Catholics

[Lycorth]

I have to say that this post is breathtaking. A personal relationship with Jesus? What could be more personal than kneeling in front of the Blessed Sacrament? What could be more personal than Forty Hours Devotion or Benediction? Quite frankly, I and many others on this forum who continually post that we did and do understand the Mass in Latin are getting tired of having this same tired myth brought up at every opportunity.

This post is almost Protestant in its breathtaking scope. These are all allegations that Protestants hurled at us back in those days. We were not some peasants in some backwoods village in a Dracula or Wolfman movie. I am a product of thirteen years of Catholic education and I was taught a great deal more about theology, etc. back then than my two sons ever got in their recent Catholic education. At the very least I knew my Baltimore Catechism far better than the watered down pap I found in my son’s religion textbooks.

To the OP. I am a medievalist and was a long time member of a medieval reenactment group. I have had several pagan friends - Norse and Celtic mythos. I am also an anthropologist by training. There is so much disinformation and deliberate distortion about “what things were like” that it makes me sick. I grew up before Vatican II and “am not dead yet, I’m feeling better”. I would take with a huge grain of salt these modern day folk-tales about what it was like back then.

From a strictly objective point of view, there have been massive changes and there are many of us who grew up in the pre-Vatican II church and never liked what happened in the years after.

I have no animus against non-traditional Catholics. I am not asking them to revert back to that which I grew up with. I have hoped and prayed for 45 years that we would come back to our senses and recognize what we have lost. The fact that my cathedral choir still chants hymns composed a thousand years ago and before never fails to impress me.

I am Catholic. My ancestors suffered for their religion in Ireland, England, and Scotland.
We take our own hard fought heritage and reduce it to superstition. What a shame.

I know I’m resurrecting an old thread by posting this, but this was one of the finest defenses of the traditional faith I’ve ever heard. From one Medievalist to another - bravo!

I am Polish by descent; my ancestors fought hard for the Church in Poland as well, and the traditional Faith helped unite them into a nation to begin with. It is a crying shame that such a rich and powerful faith is being watered down into bland nothingness as it is today.

For no one having a “personal relationship with Jesus” before the age of enlightenment, we sure do have a lot of pre-Vatican II saints.

Indeed! And look at how little we see today. No great theologians, no great saints, none of what the elder Church was absolutely rife with.

That ought to point clearly to where we should be heading.

 

[Yggdrasil]

I know I’m resurrecting an old thread by posting this.

That’s okay, I’m glad you did, for the benefit of those of us who missed it the first time around.

I sympathize with the OP entirely. I spent two years defending Christianity on atheist forums and it strengthened my Catholic faith. Then I spent the next two years on Catholic forums, and sometimes I feel like it’s made me an atheist. Well—agnostic, really. I could never be an atheist. There is, for me, a mystical dimension to existence that precludes any sort of denial, and which could still be called “God” were I even to become a certified agnostic.

Although “Goddess,” actually, would not be out of the question. She was called Isis in the Levant; she was Brigid to the ancients of my own ancestry; and it was said that “her service is perfect freedom.” That same line was appropriated by Christian churchmen and applied to the Almighty, and it was even incorporated into the language of the liturgy—and there it yet remains, during Lauds in the Collect for Peace in the Book of Common Prayer. It is claimed by the pagans that their Mater dea was forcibly shoved aside and whitewashed into disremembrance when the romper-stomper Deus pater of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob marched ashore on the Isles.

Whether this is true or not (it’s no way to treat a lady), I do not know—but this much I do know: if Vatican II, the Novus Ordo, and the current hierarchy are truly Christian, then the entire scheme is revealed as a creation of mortal men. My understanding is that the Sacraments and Revelation—the depositum fidei—were given to the Apostles to be passed down and guarded safely, not innovated and played around with willy-nilly in the interest of being relevant. If the latter is somehow true, then I shall be like the Druid who was introduced to St. Winwallus on the deathbed of King Gradlon, when Gradlon told Winwallus:

The ills I have endured are as nothing compared to the agonies through which he has passed—he has lost his gods! What sorrow can compare with this sorrow? Once he was a Druid; now he mourns a dead religion.

Brigid (the goddess) was supposedly born under the door arch of a Druid’s home: right on the threshold between the sanctuary of the mystic and the realm of worldly affairs. A familiar scheme for those of us torn between faith and doubt. May St. Brigid (not the goddess) pray for us all. Kyrie eleison.

 

[littlequestion]

Cyberwolf, thank you for opening this thread.

There are some posts in the first pages about charismatic catholic gatherings (rolling on the floor, etc) that compare that to vodou and they are right, that horrible heresy is exactly an incursion of vodou into the holy Church. I went to a meeting when it first began that was in a Church Basement at the invitation of a friend and I saw the vodou of it right away.

You have very clear spiritual vision, Cyberwolf, and I will have a bunch of people jump on me for what I am about to say, as a traditional Catholic who is blessed with having been able to find a weekly Latin Mass nearby: you are still Catholic and not nearly as far removed from Grace as many who are in the sanctuary.

There are many classes of spirits. We are warned as Catholics not to seek them out, but the Holy Spirit does open the door for some individuals. However, the vodou practices that have appeared in the disguise of charismatic worship involve evil spirits and are destructive. Those are not the natural pre-Christian paganism, they are truly evil. I am among those who believe that Haiti is suffering now specifically because the Church compromised itself with vodou in a wave of pseudo-ecumenical events.

I don’t know that much about Druid practice, but from what I have seen, some of it involves benign pre-Christian spirituality, quite different from vodou. It is still not good in ecumenical terms to mix religions, no matter how benign, St Paul speaks of this, but we also have natural ethnic customs that do not rise to the level of a loss of spiritual integrity.

You recognize that we have great spiritual integrity in the Traditional Latin Mass. I hope you can attend. Then perhaps you can help me pray for my daughter. She followed the Wiccan path and was horribly attacked by some Catholic relatives behind my back. I have not seen her since, and it was a long time before I was able to find out what happened. I want to know that she is safe and that she will one day forgive me enough to speak to me. She thinks I was aware of the ambush and that I approved it because that lie was told to her by one of the attackers.

The hate that infests the Catholic Church was not there when I was a child. We kept to ourselves and did not mix with other religions. The hate that is in the Church today (which is no different from hate everywhere) is largely due, in my opinion, to the failure of Fatima. That failure led to a terribly false ecumenism that came out of Vat-II, the falseness being that spiritual integrity was broken. True ecumenism would have allowed us to participate more openly with other religions in secular efforts like health clinics etc but we would have drawn the line at changning the sacred liturgy, the sacred architecture, and the way doctrines are interpreted and Sacraments offered.

I hope I am making sense, here. God bless you, anyway…

 

[brotherhrolf]

And there is voodoo here in south Louisiana. There is tourist voodoo which is sold in New Orleans and there is the authentic variety which so very few, so very, very few practice where the “sun don’t shine”.

Those poor folks in Haiti are the victims of a natural disaster every bit as much as the poor folks in New Orleans. Do you honestly think that Katrina was divine retribution? If so, you need to remember that Betsy slammed into New Orleans in 1965 and the levees failed. The Ninth Ward flooded back then but the difference was that the Ninth Ward was white Italian Catholics and the amphibious equipment was right there and not over in Iraq.

I was a freshman in high school in New Orleans in 1965. Many of the same areas that flooded in 2005 were flooded. We were promised better levees and given…

Those folks in Haiti are Catholic. They are Catholic. Do you want to talk about ethnic irish practices that I grew up with in New Orleans?

 

[peary1]

Simple question.

Why do so many Catholics want to get rid of the Rosary, the chaplets, scapulars, formula prayers (glory be, hail mary, litanies ect.), saint’s devotions, medals and so forth.

There is also the hate on for the old TLM Mass ( as a Druid I love it! ) and latin in general…

But these kind of Catholics seem to love the speaking in tounges and rolling on the floor charismatic deal, which reminds me a lot fo voudou and trust me I’ve seen voudou it is the exact same thing, okay we can argue source but if you get a chance youtube them side by side.

So why are some Catholics out to make there own church just another protestant denomination?

I just don’t get it!

I truly believe that it has a lot to do with arrogance and pride.

 

[Robert_Michael]

Well Pope Paul VI said in the 1970s that the smoke of satan had slipped into Christ’s Church.

Basically some rebels with non-Catholic beliefs chose to stay inside the Church to cause more damage and have more influence as they know the negative consequences for those who split off from the Church (eg one domination splitting up into several dozen)

Fortunately after JPII and B16 most of them are gone but unfortunately some of them remain.

Well, Satan has been messing around with the Church for a long time. Way before now. He tried selling indulgences and all that. But the Holy Spirit kept the Church from it, and it was delivered.

 

[Lycorth]

That’s okay, I’m glad you did, for the benefit of those of us who missed it the first time around.

I sympathize with the OP entirely. I spent two years defending Christianity on atheist forums and it strengthened my Catholic faith. Then I spent the next two years on Catholic forums, and sometimes I feel like it’s made me an atheist. Well—agnostic, really. I could never be an atheist. There is, for me, a mystical dimension to existence that precludes any sort of denial, and which could still be called “God” were I even to become a certified agnostic.

I recently was an active member at another Catholic forum (which shall remain nameless), and was so put off I just quit frequenting it cold turkey. The disgustingly liberalized presentation of Catholicism makes one wonder if most Catholics aren’t just Catholics in name only. If I were exploring the Faith for the first time, I’d have given up right then and there.

Although “Goddess,” actually, would not be out of the question. She was called Isis in the Levant; she was Brigid to the ancients of my own ancestry; and it was said that “her service is perfect freedom.” That same line was appropriated by Christian churchmen and applied to the Almighty, and it was even incorporated into the language of the liturgy—and there it yet remains, during Lauds in the Collect for Peace in the Book of Common Prayer. It is claimed by the pagans that their Mater dea was forcibly shoved aside and whitewashed into disremembrance when the romper-stomper Deus pater of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob marched ashore on the Isles.

That reminds me of my pagan days, trying to reconcile different pagan gods into one coherent religion. I don’t think I was ever so spiritually dead as in those days.

Whether this is true or not (it’s no way to treat a lady), I do not know—but this much I do know: if Vatican II, the Novus Ordo, and the current hierarchy are truly Christian, then the entire scheme is revealed as a creation of mortal men. My understanding is that the Sacraments and Revelation—the depositum fidei—were given to the Apostles to be passed down and guarded safely, not innovated and played around with willy-nilly in the interest of being relevant. If the latter is somehow true, then I shall be like the Druid who was introduced to St. Winwallus on the deathbed of King Gradlon, when Gradlon told Winwallus:

Indeed! However, we know better

 

[Yggdrasil]

That reminds me of my pagan days, trying to reconcile different pagan gods into one coherent religion. I don’t think I was ever so spiritually dead as in those days.

Dead you may’ve been, and “alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord” you may indeed be now. But “coherency” was never supposed to be paganism’s strong suit. The pagan religion, because it comes from the forests, isn’t as sophisticated or intricate as those of us raised within the Christian framework expect a proper religion to be. Propriety, however, does not always rule the day. As you doubtless already know, the pagan cult of the goddess is earthy, lustful, and bloody; assuredly cyclical and beautifully elusive. And for this reason it retains a certain sense of mystery and romanticism—particularly for us who are far distant from “the holy word that walk’d among the ancient trees.”

If it leaves you spiritually dry, then that is that. Neither Diana nor Danu will condemn you to hell for it—after all, you tried your best—and very few of your former tribe are likely to accuse you of apostasy or schism for dropping the ball. As the Druid told St. Winwallus, ever so serenely: “all paths lead to the same center.”

Indeed! However, we know better

Ah, but do we?

 

[brotherhrolf]

We have really strayed from the original topic but I just have to reply. I am a medievalist and I had friends who were pagan. I am also an anthropology and history major. I am familiar with most of the mythos of Western Europe including those of my Celtic ancestors (Irish, Scot and Breton).

Pope St. Gregory the Great told St. Augustine of Cantwaraburh (Canterbury) to adopt all that was good in the Sasenach culture. St. Patrick of blessed memory did the same in Ireland earlier. So, Brighet became St. Bridget and so on. The Romans slaughtered the main Druidic stronghold in Anglesey. St. Augustine did a fairly good job of establishing Christianity in pre-Viking Saxon England. St. Columba and his successors did a really spiffy job of bringing Christianity into Scotland and then into Merovingian France and into Germany.

The Druids relied heavily on mnemonic practices to pass their faith down. I am not aware of any Anglo-Saxon manuscripts or Norse runes which lay out in some detail what those pagan faiths were like. We know a bit more about the Norse because Christian monks commented on them.

As an anthropologist, I have to opine that modern paganism is nothing but an approximation and cannot resemble the ancient practices. We know a whole lot about Yanamamo practices in the jungles of Brazil but how much do we know about Druidic, Saxon, or Norse practices?

I can cite any number of manuscripts going back 2,000 years to confirm Christian beliefs and practices - in Greek, Latin, and Semitic. Most pagan references come from Victorian England - centuries later than the actual cultures and highly suspect.

Religious syncretism has long been a method of conversion. HMC failed in China and Japan because of Renaissance fervor.

The Saxons and the Norse were of similar stock but their mythos were vastly different from the Irish. There is no mythos for Western European paganism with a one size fits all.

This was a great “around the campfire” conversation and maybe I need to start another thread.

 

[Melchior_1]

\Why do so many Catholics want to get rid of the Rosary, the chaplets, scapulars, formula prayers (glory be, hail mary, litanies ect.), saint’s devotions, medals and so forth.

There is also the hate on for the old TLM Mass ( as a Druid I love it! ) and latin in general…

But these kind of Catholics seem to love the speaking in tounges and rolling on the floor charismatic deal, which reminds me a lot fo voudou and trust me I’ve seen voudou it is the exact same thing, okay we can argue source but if you get a chance youtube them side by side.\

**I’ve not met a single Charismatic Catholic who wants to get rid of any traditional devotion. There are even those who prefer the Extraordinary Form.

Have you actually met any Catholics who PRACTICE their faith who want to suppress the Rosary or such devotions?**

This x 1000000000000. For further examples people should look into the Companions of the Cross and/or the Franciscans who run Steubie U in Ohio. HIGHLY Orthodox, very Charismatic.

No true Catholic wants to do away with traditional things like TLM, even those who prefer stuff like modern music.

 

[littlequestion]

I’ve met some of those “Steubies” who follow Scott Hahn like he was Jim Jones.

Let me tell you something, you can look & feel as Traditional as you want, but when you send your proteges into Parishes with the express mission of running older cradle-catholics OUT of the Church with two dozen different sneaky underhanded and disingenuous tactics, you better just be careful. The Holy Spirit does not need to roll around on the floor to assert its power, and this is something Catholics who were born and raised in the devout communities that were disrupted and dispersed in the 1970’s know very well. Hahn was a cult-builder before he decided to get inside the Catholic Church and he is still a cult-builder. Steubenville may as well be Jonestown, IMHO.

Some young enthusiasts don’t seem to know that there is a very strict Catholic wall up when it comes to demoniac activity. Only specially trained priests are supposed to go anywhere near an exorcism, and the whole problem with the Charismatic movement is that it opened itself to vodou and other spiritual traditions without having any of the traditional protections of the Catholic orders in place. Steubenville apparently, from the ones I met, has a little underground thing going where Hahn introduces his students to casting-out-demons, etc which is a highly heretical and dangerous practice.

Paul speaks about the spirit world very carefully in several epistles. He indicates that not all are evil, but not all are beneficial, either, and with the admonition that “we see through a glass darkly” we are left to understand that we must not try to make our own path to the spirit world, and we learn more through all of the great Saints & Doctors of the Church who followed and who developed very careful devotional and mystic practices,

Sneaking the demonology in under the guise of Charismatic Catholicism is what I saw going on. The altered states of consciousness of glossolallia can leave people, especially young people, with serious mental deficits.

 

[Melchior_1]

I’ve met some of those “Steubies” who follow Scott Hahn like he was Jim Jones.

Let me tell you something, you can look & feel as Traditional as you want, but when you send your proteges into Parishes with the express mission of running older cradle-catholics OUT of the Church with two dozen different sneaky underhanded and disingenuous tactics, you better just be careful. The Holy Spirit does not need to roll around on the floor to assert its power, and this is something Catholics who were born and raised in the devout communities that were disrupted and dispersed in the 1970’s know very well. Hahn was a cult-builder before he decided to get inside the Catholic Church and he is still a cult-builder. Steubenville may as well be Jonestown, IMHO.

Some young enthusiasts don’t seem to know that there is a very strict Catholic wall up when it comes to demoniac activity. Only specially trained priests are supposed to go anywhere near an exorcism, and the whole problem with the Charismatic movement is that it opened itself to vodou and other spiritual traditions without having any of the traditional protections of the Catholic orders in place. Steubenville apparently, from the ones I met, has a little underground thing going where Hahn introduces his students to casting-out-demons, etc which is a highly heretical and dangerous practice.

Paul speaks about the spirit world very carefully in several epistles. He indicates that not all are evil, but not all are beneficial, either, and with the admonition that “we see through a glass darkly” we are left to understand that we must not try to make our own path to the spirit world, and we learn more through all of the great Saints & Doctors of the Church who followed and who developed very careful devotional and mystic practices,

Sneaking the demonology in under the guise of Charismatic Catholicism is what I saw going on. The altered states of consciousness of glossolallia can leave people, especially young people, with serious mental deficits.

As an RCIT (RCIA for Teens) instructor, I make it VERY clear that we are not to mess around with exorcisms. We have a Priest in my diocese who is the assigned exorcist and he’s the expert on the matters of casting out demons. Now just about any Priest can go and bless houses, but if you want the real bad stuff gone you call in the Big Guns. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know there’s a difference between praying over someone and an actual Rite of Exorcism.

As someone involved with Life Teen for several years, I can safely say we’re not trying to push people out. Quite the opposite, actually, we want more than just youth coming out. We want EVERYONE coming out. I don’t see what the benefit of them driving people out is, and would love to see concrete evidence that Scott Hahn is the man responsible and not some people who took what was said too far. Some people do follow the leader a bit too zealously. We’ve seen news reports to that effect recently, if I’m not mistaken.

As a leader in my community, something I always try to be mindful of is trying to build a community around fraternity, and not on an individual (ie; myself or another leader). The avoidance of building a cult is something all leaders (myself included) is paramount, which is why most leaders focus on building a community through fraternity and fellowship.

The concept of doing that (building a community around fraternity) is a core value of Franciscan Spirituality. It’s no coincidence that as someone who came back to Rome due to Steubie and as someone born on the Feast of Saint Francis that I have a very large devotion to him, and certainly mold my spirituality in a Franciscan manner. I find it HIGHLY doubtful that the U of S, run by Third Order Regulars, lay members of the Secular Franciscan Order, plus members of the First order would engage in the activities you speak of because it clearly runs contrary to the ideals the Order Stands for.

The University has done much in the way of good, and the leadership there promote orthodox teaching, some charismatic elements, and radical devotion to the Blessed Sacrament. They also promote Franciscan values, and to me (obviously) there are fewer things better than that.

 

[littlequestion]

That word “radical” is very popular with those people, isn’t it? Well, we Cradle Catholics have some pretty radical memories of what that word has always signified, and it is not good. But the people who throw that word around so easily are rarely aware of what they are doing when they use it because they are generally pretty young.

I am reassured to see your points on the Priestly role of exorcism. Maybe there should be another thread up somewhere on that topic before we hijack the Druids…

(we sure don’t want to mess with hijacked Druids! )

 

[Melchior_1]

That word “radical” is very popular with those people, isn’t it? Well, we Cradle Catholics have some pretty radical memories of what that word has always signified, and it is not good. But the people who throw that word around so easily are rarely aware of what they are doing when they use it because they are generally pretty young.

I am reassured to see your points on the Priestly role of exorcism. Maybe there should be another thread up somewhere on that topic before we hijack the Druids…

(we sure don’t want to mess with hijacked Druids! )

You know, I never thought of that. People my age (and lets face it, several people my age are in this position) use radical to describe things sometimes, but people from a different age likely have bad memories of “radical” things and people who were “radical”. I hope you know what I truly meant by what I said.

You’re right though, we better stop hijacking this thread

 

[cyberwolf001]

Okay lads don’t make me sharpen my boline!

But hey I am all over a split off. I got some stories of a Charismatic group giveing me an excorcism to do in my own home solo. It never sat right with me as a Catholic.

 

[Lamafacaja]

Originally Posted by Lamafacaja
Ah, so.

And so it’s interesting to me that you, a Druid finds the subject at hand to be interesting… Is it just idle curiosity on your part, perhaps a general interest in religions in general, or is it because of your Catholic friends and family that you want to know?

Wolf: I’m just sort of wondering the why of it…
Curiosity. From the outside it is like watching a religion rip itself apart.

In recent years there’s been a great crisis in our Church. But the crisis wasn’t without warning.

Pope Leo XIII had a terrifying vision of what would happen to us in the 20th century.

In 1947 Father Domenico Pechenino related what he had witnessed over six decades before.

“I do not remember the exact year. One morning the great Pope Leo XIII had celebrated a Mass and, as usual, was attending a Mass of thanksgiving. Suddenly, we saw him raise his head and stare at something above the celebrant’s head. He was staring motionlessly, without batting an eye. His expression was one of horror and awe; the colour and look on his face changing rapidly. Something unusual and grave was happening in him.

“Finally, as though coming to his senses, he lightly but firmly tapped his hand and rose to his feet. He headed for his private office. His retinue followed anxiously and solicitously, whispering: ‘Holy Father, are you not feeling well? Do you need anything?’ He answered: ‘Nothing, nothing.’ About half an hour later, he called for the Secretary of the Congregation of Rites and, handing him a sheet of paper, requested that it be printed and sent to all the ordinaries around the world. What was that paper? It was the prayer that we recite with the people at the end of every Mass. It is the plea to Mary and the passionate request to the Prince of the heavenly host, (St. Michael: Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle) beseeching God to send Satan back to hell.”

Cardinal Giovanni Batista Nassalli Rocca di Corneiliano wrote in his Pastoral Letters on Lent: “the sentence ‘The evil spirits who wander through the world for the ruin of souls’ has a historical explanation that was many times repeated by his private secretary, Monsignor Rinaldo Angeli. Leo XIII truly saw, in a vision, demonic spirits who were congregating on the Eternal City (Rome). The prayer that he asked all the Church to recite was the fruit of that experience. He would recite that prayer with strong, powerful voice: we heard it many a time in the Vatican Basilica. Leo XIII also personally wrote an exorcism that is included in the Roman Ritual. He recommended that bishops and priests read these exorcisms often in their dioceses and parishes. He himself would recite them often throughout the day.”

The Prayer written by the Pope is of course the famous prayer to Saint Michael:

Sancte Michael Archangele,
defende nos in proelio;
contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.
Imperet illi Deus, supplices deprecamur:
tuque, Princeps militiae Caelestis,
satanam aliosque spiritus malignos,
qui ad perditionem animarum pervagantur in mundo,
divina virtute in infernum detrude.
Amen.

This is the version I learned as a boy:

Saint Michael, the Archangel, defend us in the battle. Be our protection against the malice and snares of the Devil. We humbly beseech God to command him. And do thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host, by the powers of God, cast into Hell Satan and all the evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls.

In 1886 this prayer was added to the prayers that in 1884 Pope Leo had ordered to be said after every low Mass. In 1964, by Inter oecumenici, the Payer to Saint Michael, along with the other Leonine Prayers after low Masses, were suppressed. I have always thought that a great pity. Rest assured that Satan did not cease his activity in 1964, and Pope Leo sought to remind us of that activity and through the prayer to Saint Michael to help guard us against it. It is still a common prayer in my house.

Our Lady of Fatima had warned us about chastisements. She warned us of wars, of the persecution of the Church, of the persecution of the Holy Father, and the the annihilation of nations. The Blessed Mother urged us to pray the rosary so that all this wouldn’t come to pass.

Pope Paul the VI warned at that time of greatest confusion that “the smoke of satan has entered the Church”.

So much confusion has surrounded our post VII era and we almost lost the TLM completely. Many Catholics aren’t very familiar with our own beautiful devotions and with the TLM. They weren’t taught the catechism. So many of us grew up ignorant of our Faith to one extent or another. So, from this crisis has come so much confusion. It’s hard for contemporary Catholics to love the things that they don’t know. The new Mass and the way things are now are all they know. And they don’t want that changed. Many modern Catholics see Traditionalism as a threat. They see traditionalists as having rejected their religion as it is today. So, as you may know, when ever you have to groups who are competing within a society, you’re going to see animosity. And the Catholic Church, unfortunately is no different.

 

[karoleck]

"I’ve met some of those “Steubies” who follow Scott Hahn like he was Jim Jones. "

littlequestion you sure fire off wonderful statements and to think that you come from Texas!!

One of my favorite songs is called “The yellow rose of Texas is the only girl for me,her eyes are bright and shinning–” You do not fit into that song–more like one about a rattle snake or some cactus with sharp thorns everywhere!! I am glad you say "we are catholics"and post yourself as a catholic,I would never had realized this, by your nasty posts,sorry to say you write like a biggoted protestant! Are you trying to frighten every potential convert away from The True Church,founded by St.Peter.I already pointed out that what you say about the wonderful Scott Hahn is to put it in Texan language just BULL
Perhaps in future you should justify yourself in your allegations about Scott Hahn by quoting from his wonderful CD ,DVD or books,I have the priviledge of gracing my bookshelf with some of these.Perhaps you might like to join the “learned and the clever” Druid follower in whatever he or she adhears to?.I can guarantee you that if scott Hahn continues in the path that he is on, a great place in Heaven awaits him.You will have to eat humble pie before you have a chance to be there with him!! Druids? no I think some converted from their pagan ways and became Catholics.You Druid should do the same–your rues about being a confused pagan is just plain bulldust,sorry!

 

[littlequestion]

Okay lads don’t make me sharpen my boline!

But hey I am all over a split off. I got some stories of a Charismatic group giveing me an excorcism to do in my own home solo. It never sat right with me as a Catholic.

See that? The Holy Spirit never abandons us! Now I am risking a lot by saying this in front of many who might not understand, but I think you do understand as well as others who have ventured* in good faith *into the other spiritual paths, and that is that the natural pre-Christian (as opposed to later anti-Christian) spiritualities have built structures around their approach for the protection of the human soul. This is why such paths have usually been carefully guided through shamanism and communal ritual.

Many criticize the Catholic Church for having actually incorporated similar structures into our Liturgy and we are accused of having done this in order to fool the pagans into joining us, but I believe there is a natural level of soul-protection and the Church acknowledged it in the same way that natural health is acknowldged and incorporated into our daily life.

We are brought into the Communion of Saints and thus into Life Everlasting at Baptism, but the souls who have explored other spiritual realms without ever having been baptized, while they may reap whatever rewards in this life are available through those realms, they do not reap the reward of Life Everlasting in the Communion of Saints that is offered to those who choose it.

We have a guardian angel assigned to us at Baptism. That angel never leaves, no matter where we go in life.

 

[Celtic_Catholic]

Simple question.

Why do so many Catholics want to get rid of the Rosary, the chaplets, scapulars, formula prayers (glory be, hail mary, litanies ect.), saint’s devotions, medals and so forth.

:

I’m not following this thread as I just saw it and there are sooooo many posts to go through. But the initial post really got my attention.

I don’t know any Catholics who wish to give up these things. But I’m from a small, conservative town so I don’t know what’s going on in bigger areas. I couldn’t imagine Catholicism without our beautiful Rosary, Scapulars, Saints and so on. It is such a big part of our “personality” and spirituality. Our religion wouldn’t be the same without every aspect of all it is today and all it was before. And I, personally, would never give up those things because they are apart of who I am.

Forgive me for this post that’s “sticking out like a sore thumb”.