Question from a Muslim work colleague

[Cleansebyfire]

When someone makes an outrageous claim like that, it’s their responsibility to provide the proof.

He claimed that was on their website, I asked him on who’s website then said the Vatican and still not yet shown such evidence.

You can start with asking where it shows Mohammed even knew anything about Constantine in the first place.

Good question Thanks.

 

[Sam_777]

His problem was with both but the questions he raised was pacifically against Catholic Church. I think he is trying to undermine my faith may be convert me to Islam.

Maybe you should invite him to CAF, there are many things and facts which prove that the Islamic dogma is a man made religion which was not inspired by the true GOD.

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

I think he is trying to undermine my faith may be convert me to Islam.

Pray and find & give great answers to each of his questions and you just may be instrumental in his conversion to the Catholic Church.

Dr. Scott Hahn has three CDs I’d recommend for you which can be purchased for like $3.50 to $4.50 each (MP3s costs even less) from Lighthouse Catholic Media:

1. God’s Family and Ours: The Church and the Trinity
2. Abba or Allah
3. The Fourth Cup

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

I think he is trying to undermine my faith may be convert me to Islam.

Pray and find & give great answers to each of his questions and you just may be instrumental in his conversion to the Catholic Church.

Dr. Scott Hahn has three CDs I’d recommend for you which can be purchased for like $3.50 to $4.50 each (MP3 costs even less) from Lighthouse Catholic Media:

1. God’s Family and Ours: The Church and the Trinity
2. Abba or Allah
3. The Fourth Cup

 

[LtTony]

I told a work Muslim work colleague that I went to Mass for lunch he started making claims against Catholic Church (none of which I agree with and sounds like 3rd Century Heresy) but I would like to here the opinions of the members and admin of this forum.

He stated that the Catholic Church had nothing to do with Christ and the apostles was the state religion of the Roman Empire, established in the 3rd Century and persecuted early Christians.

Can anyone shed light on this I would greatly appreciate it.

Some of this is very routine anti-catholic rhetoric. Very common on muslim boards in attacks of christianity in general. The BC thing is first for me, however.
I would remind your friend – very charitably, of course – of a couple of things. One, he must present some evidence, some specifics in his allegations if we are to take them seriously. It will also be much easier and more verifiable way to respond to his claims. They are pretty vague at this point.

Two, there were likely several sects of christians early in the history of the church. Not unusual thing for any relkigion, inluding Islam. Certainly more violence in the formation of Islam.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Shia_Islam

Muslims usually claim Trinitarian Christianity persecuted unitarian Christians out of existence. They offer no proof, however. More importantly, they fail to show that the unitarians had any connection with Peter, Paul or any of the Apostles. I understand that all of the Apostles established Christian communities that essentially believe what we Trinitarians believe today. No one has shown me anything to the contrary.
Ask your muslim friend if any of those “outsider” and persecuted sects can trace their beginnings back to the apostles.

Great resource is:

answering-islam.org/

 

[LtTony]

He claimed that was on their website, I asked him on who’s website then said the Vatican and still not yet shown such evidence.

Of course he hasn’t. It doesn’t exist. That is how his type operate.

Maybe you should invite him to CAF, there are many things and facts which prove that the Islamic dogma is a man made religion which was not inspired by the true GOD.

Great suggestion.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

I told a work Muslim work colleague that I went to Mass for lunch he started making claims against Catholic Church (none of which I agree with and sounds like 3rd Century Heresy) but I would like to here the opinions of the members and admin of this forum.

He stated that the Catholic Church had nothing to do with Christ and the apostles was the state religion of the Roman Empire, established in the 3rd Century and persecuted early Christians.

Can anyone shed light on this I would greatly appreciate it.

Many Thanks and God Bless :knight1:

Did he forget that for the first few centuries after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ that Christians were relentlessly persecuted by Roman officials, with explicit sanctions of specific Roman emperors? Did he also forget the countless martyrs who spilled their blood in defense of the Church? He apparently says the Catholic Church “persecuted” the early Christians. Can he explain when? How?

Even when Constantine legalized Christianity in 313 AD, the Church was not the state religion. That didn’t occur until the reign of the Emperor Theodosius.

However the dominant form of Islam today, Sunni Islam, rampaged throughout the Middle East and asserted its supremacy as the most numerous branch of Islam through brute force, and brute force alone. Ask the Shi’as whether they’ve been persecuted throughout the centuries because of their differences with the Sunnis.

Even when Christianity became dominant in the Roman Empire, the Church’s officials were not always safe. Anger an impious emperor, and a Pope could be deposed. Heck, even Catholic monarchs in Europe weren’t afraid to act against the Pope - have we forgotten about the 1537 sack of Rome?

He’s just spewing nonsense. He’d better back himself up with some evidence, and respond to the claims of the Church instead of dismissing it for alleged “atrocities.”

 

[Reuben_J]

He’s just spewing nonsense. He’d better back himself up with some evidence, and respond to the claims of the Church instead of dismissing it for alleged “atrocities.”

Not uncommon for non-Catholics to do this. The bigger question is how do we deal with them? I would think a good explanation will go a long way for their understanding if we have the opportunity to do it in a reasonable atmosphere. If not, no amount of explanation would be sufficient.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

That was a rude remark.

I call it pointing out the obvious, sometimes being a bit rude helps get the point accross.

 

[MartinJordan]

Did he forget that for the first few centuries after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ that Christians were relentlessly persecuted by Roman officials, with explicit sanctions of specific Roman emperors? Did he also forget the countless martyrs who spilled their blood in defense of the Church? He apparently says the Catholic Church “persecuted” the early Christians. Can he explain when? How?

:sad_yes:

And no, he won’t be able to explain.

MJ

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Not uncommon for non-Catholics to do this. The bigger question is how do we deal with them? I would think a good explanation will go a long way for their understanding if we have the opportunity to do it in a reasonable atmosphere. If not, no amount of explanation would be sufficient.

It’s a strange question in the first place because it comes from people who are influenced by an essentially Catholic (Christian) mindset.

Yes, it’s true that the armies of the Crusades invaded the Middle East and Africa, and in the First Crusades, caused some atrocities.

Yet, harsh warfare like displayed in that time period was quite common. And the concept of “human rights” was still in its early phase, being pioneered by the Church at the time, certainly not by the Muslims. It’s funny that nowadays the concept of humanity and “justice” is used against the Church when it was the Church that originated those concepts in the first place. The moralizing influence has been so extensive that people don’t even realized how steeped in it they are.

The very belief that we should preserve human life because it is all precious is not something that the pagan Europeans believed in, nor was it a belief that was accepted in the Middle East and Africa either. And certainly Islam can’t really talk about being peaceful, seeing that the Crusades in the first place were a defensive strike against Muslims that had already conquered three of the five holy Christian patriarchates and besieged a the fourth and fifth (Constantinople, Rome) on more than one occasion.

Sorry, I do not accept these arguments from non-Christians. They have no leg on which to stand.

 

[Reuben_J]

It’s a strange question in the first place because it comes from people who are influenced by an essentially Catholic (Christian) mindset.

Yes, it’s true that the armies of the Crusades invaded the Middle East and Africa, and in the First Crusades, caused some atrocities.

Yet, harsh warfare like displayed in that time period was quite common. And the concept of “human rights” was still in its early phase, being pioneered by the Church at the time, certainly not by the Muslims. It’s funny that nowadays the concept of humanity and “justice” is used against the Church when it was the Church that originated those concepts in the first place. The moralizing influence has been so extensive that people don’t even realized how steeped in it they are.

The very belief that we should preserve human life because it is all precious is not something that the pagan Europeans believed in, nor was it a belief that was accepted in the Middle East and Africa either. And certainly Islam can’t really talk about being peaceful, seeing that the Crusades in the first place were a defensive strike against Muslims that had already conquered three of the five holy Christian patriarchates and besieged a the fourth and fifth (Constantinople, Rome) on more than one occasion.

Sorry, I do not accept these arguments from non-Christians. They have no leg on which to stand.

Indeed it is. And I can understand your indignance.

 

[weller2]

He looked at Christian beliefs through the ages. Starting with the nineteenth century (he was writing in 1844), he worked backward century by century, seeing if Catholic beliefs existing at any particular time could be traced to beliefs existing a century before. Back and back he went, until he got to New Testament times. What he demonstrated is that there is a real continuity of beliefs, that the Catholic Church has existed from day one of Church history, that it is in fact the Church established by Christ.

This only proves is that Catholic beliefs existed in the days of early Christianity, not that they were the only beliefs.

One could equally “prove” that Catharism was one true religion by backtracking the “YHWH is evil” idea all the way to Marcion of Sinope (c.a. 100AD) and his reading of the Gospels.

 

[jakasaki]

Brethren I agree it absurd , I meant to say he claimed that the Catholic Church was 3rd Century BC just to clarify. I just to find if anyone knows where these claims come from or was it just from there fevered imaginations.

This thread has had me bugged since it was posted and right after reading this, I went to the web and searched but could not find anything.

These past few days, I’ve noticed muslims in forums posting the same claim - that the Roman Catholic church was in practice several hundred of years before Christ was born.

Today, I finally found where Muslims get this false claim.

There is a site out there called islam tomorrow dot com.

Here is the quote:

Many people today, even Catholics, do not know the Holy Roman Catholic Church was already in business several hundred years BEFORE Jesus, peace be upon him, was even born. It was a pagan church established by the Roman government in an effort to control the subjects of Rome by having them all participate at least to some extent, along with other Roman citizens in some kind of common worship practices and beliefs.

Source: islamtomorrow.com/bible/NicaeaCouncil325.htm

There is also a youtube video on this topic created by a muslim:

catholicism existed 300 years before Jesus(AS) - YouTube

www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xl2LhaMDTg

Apr 24, 2012 - Uploaded by 336muslim
catholicism existed 300 years before Jesus(AS)

 

[Sam_777]

Thank you sister in Christ for the reference, that ignorant author needs a lot of logic before writing.

Many people today, even Catholics, do not know the Holy Roman Catholic Church was already in business several hundred years BEFORE Jesus, peace be upon him, was even born. It was a pagan church established by the Roman government in an effort to control the subjects of Rome by having them all participate at least to some extent, along with other Roman citizens in some kind of common worship practices and beliefs.

Kabba also was a central pagan worship place, does that means Islam was already in business several hundred years before Muhammed also!!!

 

[jakasaki]

Thank you sister in Christ for the reference, that ignorant author needs a lot of logic before writing.

Kabba also was a central pagan worship place, does that means Islam was already in business several hundred years before Muhammed also!!!

Thanks Sam ~

We know the claim is false, but these muslims who read this sort of stuff, believe in it.

I did not watch the video I posted with Yusef Estates… did you…?

Muslims love this guy because he was a Christian who converted to Islam and guess how they got him to deny Christ.

They asked him to show the muslims where in the Bible does Jesus say I am god, worship me. …

 

[Sam_777]

I did not watch the video I posted with Yusef Estates… did you…?

No, I just read the HTML page.

They asked him to show the muslims where in the Bible does Jesus say I am god, worship me. …

That is a well known issue for Muslims to understand specially when there is no direct quotes by JESUS saying it. However, Muslims should also think deeply into the meaning of OT (Zechariah 12) & NT (John 8:58), those are direct quotes by THE MOST HIGH & JESUS.