Question from a Non-Catholic about TC Baptisms

[HashemEchad]

OK, I hope someone can advise me here, I’m not sure what to tell this lady.

I do volunteer work as an exit counselor; this means I assist Jews who are coming out of cults and non-Jewish religions.

I received a call earlier from another exit counselor, about a woman who contacted them, seeking to return to traditional Judaism. Here is my question:

She had been baptized in 1978 by a splinter Traditionalist Catholic group (I forget the name of it), and married in that splinter group.

She then gave birth to 3 children, two of whom were baptized by another splinter group (SSPX), and a few years later, left them to join an Eastern Catholic parish, where her 3rd and last child was baptized.

Now, I told her that chances are good that she was never really baptized Catholic anyway (ditto for her first 2 children), but I’m pretty sure her last one was validly baptized.

Can anyone tell me what the actual situation would be? There is another thread on the forum, about people who leave the RCC sending a letter to their bishop asking to be removed from church rolls, but in this lady’s case (and that of her first 2 children), they were all baptized not by the mainstream RCC but by splinter TC groups.

So where would their baptisms stand, just FTR? She wants to return to Judaism and so do her kids (her husband has since died), but I’d like to know what the actual status is of the baptisms, if anyone can tell me.

Thanks.

 

[LilyM]

The Catholic Church recognises any baptism whatsoever as valid, regardless of which denomination it is performed in, or even if done by an atheist (as long as the intent is to genuinely baptise) … IF it is done in the proper manner - ie by pouring, sprinkling or immersion in water, and the words “I baptise you in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit”.

This is demonstrated in practice by the fact that, if the baptism was done in this manner, they would NOT need to be baptised again should they revert to Catholicism.

I have to say, with no disrespect intended, I’m not fond of the idea of former Catholics being seen to require ‘exit counselling’ and lumped in with cults :bigyikes: - I hope you don’t view the two groups as the same? harumph

 

[jmcrae]

Yes, all of the baptisms described above are valid in the eyes of the Church, because the members of the splinter groups most likely used valid form and matter. (It’s extremely unlikely that they didn’t, since one of the hallmarks of these groups is that they tend to be very legalistic about making sure that the right forms are followed.)

The minister of the Sacrament of Baptism can be anyone; it doesn’t have to be a member of clergy in good standing with the Church, as long as they followed the norms of the group that they were with, which seems to be the case, here.

Edited to add: the whole family automatically became members of the Catholic Church when they began to receive the Sacraments in the Eastern Catholic Church that they attended, where the youngest one was baptized, so if they want to formally defect from the Church, they would do so through the Metropolitan of the Eastern Catholic Church that they were attending at the end. Otherwise, they will be considered bound by Catholic law with regard to marriage and also with regard to what Rite they follow, should they at some later time choose to return to the Church.

(For example, if she marries a Jewish man outside the Church, and then later chooses to come back to the Church, her marriage to the Jewish man would have to be convalidated in the Church before she would be able to receive the Sacraments again. Also, if she were to return to the Church, she would be required to take up with the same Rite that she had originally left.)

 

[HashemEchad]

Thanks to both of you for your information, that helps in knowing how to discuss this with her.

And I apologize if I offended by referring to cults and non-Jewish religions in the same sentence. What we do is assist any Jew seeking to return to our faith, regardless of what group (if any) they were involved in. We have assisted Jews who had become Hare Krishnas, Moonies, JWs, Presbyterians, Buddhists, Baptists, Catholics, atheists, you name it.

I suppose what I should have said is that we assist Jews seeking to return to Judaism from any and all non-Jewish religious groups.

Thanks again for the info! I know a lot about the teachings of the RCC, but was not quite sure about the validity of splinter RC baptisms.

 

[LilyM]

Thanks to both of you for your information, that helps in knowing how to discuss this with her.

And I apologize if I offended by referring to cults and non-Jewish religions in the same sentence. What we do is assist any Jew seeking to return to our faith, regardless of what group (if any) they were involved in. We have assisted Jews who had become Hare Krishnas, Moonies, JWs, Presbyterians, Buddhists, Baptists, Catholics, atheists, you name it.

I suppose what I should have said is that we assist Jews seeking to return to Judaism from any and all non-Jewish religious groups.

Thanks again for the info! I know a lot about the teachings of the RCC, but was not quite sure about the validity of splinter RC baptisms.

No offence taken, really. I guessed that what you’ve said was probably the case, just found the way it was phrased somewhat interesting

Pleased to be of help, anyways :tiphat:

 

[rpp]

This is certainly off topic, but I suspect the answer will be simple.

Haschem, you said you are an “exit counselor” helping Jews to return to Judaism.

What about non-Jews interested in Judaism? If, say, an Irishman came to you desiring to learn more and possibly convert, how do you (you personally ) deal with that?

And, no, I am referring to myself; it is just a general question. I feel quite happy being Catholic. Nor do I believe that Jews faithful to Judaism are bound for Hell.

I do not mean to derail this thread, I am looking for a quick answer.

 

[HashemEchad]

This is certainly off topic, but I suspect the answer will be simple.

Haschem, you said you are an “exit counselor” helping Jews to return to Judaism.

What about non-Jews interested in Judaism? If, say, an Irishman came to you desiring to learn more and possibly convert, how do you (you personally ) deal with that?

And, no, I am referring to myself; it is just a general question. I feel quite happy being Catholic. Nor do I believe that Jews faithful to Judaism are bound for Hell.

I do not mean to derail this thread, I am looking for a quick answer.

A Gentile wanting to convert to Judaism would not need to come to me, though I have had a number of them come to me, seeking conversion.

I cannot convert anyone; I would need to refer them to an Orthodox rabbi.

There is one rabbi I usually refer them to in my area. He is a Lubavitcher (Chasidic) rabbi, who is himself a convert–an Irishman from County Cork, in Ireland! He makes a stunning sight, with his long, flaming red beard, I must say!

 

[rpp]

A Gentile wanting to convert to Judaism would not need to come to me, though I have had a number of them come to me, seeking conversion.

I cannot convert anyone; I would need to refer them to an Orthodox rabbi.

There is one rabbi I usually refer them to in my area. He is a Lubavitcher (Chasidic) rabbi, who is himself a convert–an Irishman from County Cork, in Ireland! He makes a stunning sight, with his long, flaming red beard, I must say!

Thank you. Yes, I am sure that an Irish Jew with a red beard would make quite a sight!

God’s peace be with you.

Now back to what consists of a valid baptism…