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VociMike
Guest
Why do people want purpose in their lives? No other organism wants purpose in its life. What is different about people, and why are they alone dissatisfied with reality? Biologically it makes no sense.
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I_Leatherman
Guest
Thats the same thing as saying;
- remove religion and peoples fear of death will cause them to commit suicide.
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kaschmidt
Guest
Good morning, Predator 
I am new to the forums but stumbled upon this thread and just wanted to drop a line that I hope you will find helpful. I sense that you are a very intelligent person. I find that the intellect often is a stumbling block for many people when it comes to faith. Over the years, I have come to see that this mindset borders upon sinful pride (i.e., a vice) in the intellect…as if we humans could know everything there is to know about the universe. Perhaps some people are emboldened to say that given all the spectacular scientific advances, but what we know compared to what is out there to be known is but a drop in the ocean. I have personally found that concepts regarding religion and faith that were previously at odds with my very logical, analytical self became much more understandable and often even believable when I approached them with this kind of humility. I try to use my intellect now to learn more and become as knowlegeable as possible about my faith. This means keeping my critical eye open…not just accepting everything I read. I saw someone else recommended “Mere Christianity” by C.S. Lewis. I am a cradle Catholic (who came back to the Church in my 30’s) and that book blew my mind. I would also recommend "The Case for Christ: A Journalist’s Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus " by Lee Strobel. Keep reading and searching…best of luck in your journey.
I am new to the forums but stumbled upon this thread and just wanted to drop a line that I hope you will find helpful. I sense that you are a very intelligent person. I find that the intellect often is a stumbling block for many people when it comes to faith. Over the years, I have come to see that this mindset borders upon sinful pride (i.e., a vice) in the intellect…as if we humans could know everything there is to know about the universe. Perhaps some people are emboldened to say that given all the spectacular scientific advances, but what we know compared to what is out there to be known is but a drop in the ocean. I have personally found that concepts regarding religion and faith that were previously at odds with my very logical, analytical self became much more understandable and often even believable when I approached them with this kind of humility. I try to use my intellect now to learn more and become as knowlegeable as possible about my faith. This means keeping my critical eye open…not just accepting everything I read. I saw someone else recommended “Mere Christianity” by C.S. Lewis. I am a cradle Catholic (who came back to the Church in my 30’s) and that book blew my mind. I would also recommend "The Case for Christ: A Journalist’s Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus " by Lee Strobel. Keep reading and searching…best of luck in your journey.
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R_McGeddon
Guest
In that case, where did the creator come from?
Sounds reasonable.
If God is not created, therefore he does not exist.
No.
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Philthy
Guest
I will simply point out that you have made an assumption in claiming that people want “purpose in their life” - it’s not a scientifically verifiable contention, nor can you possibly know it as a universal truth for all people. In postulating such a notion you have embraced it as a belief - you have faith in it.
Back to your comment…
Your contention, then, is that people naturally want “a purpose” in life and that in seeking an illusory ( your opinion) concept of God that purpose is fulfilled? This makes sense to you? I dont get it at all. How is it logical that illusion consistently satisfies reality?
Philthy
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R_McGeddon
Guest
What seems to be overlooked by everybody, is the possibility that the big bang may just have altered the universe from one state of existence into another.
What is an undeniable fact, is that nobody knows with 100% certainty either way.
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Philthy
Guest
that is because such a possibility does not alter the substance of the discussion. It does, however, sound very theistic to me, …
Actually, no one can speak of the certainty of others - we can only speak for ourselves - our own knowledge. Augustine claimed an “awareness” of a being greater than that which could be thought of. There is no way to determine the validity of such a claim…
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ricmat
Guest
So where did the original state of existence come from?
You don’t seem to be making any progress here…
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ricmat
Guest
The thought that there is actually a God, and life after death scares me more than the thought of oblivion.
When I imagine what it could be, might be, might not be, and realize how little we all know about it (except the certainty that it exists), and that what I have done and failed to do here on earth affects my eternal life, it scares me - yes, it really does.
If I were going to invent something merely to be comforting, non-God would be the thing I’d pick.
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Keikiolu
Guest
The Creator has no need to “come from somewhere/something” because only that which is created has that requirement.
Is that circular? Yes.
Is that a problem? Only if you make it one. And if you make it one, you don’t understand the meaning of “Monotheistic Creator”.
And if you don’t understand the meaning of “Monotheistic Creator”, then nothing anyone will or can say to you will make ANY sense whatsoever…!
See my statement above.
Of course not. See my statement above.
Any questions?
Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaika
i ia oe. Aloha nui.
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Benedictus
Guest
Frankly, I had the opposite reaction. That book pushed me further towards agnosticism. Aside from being incredibly boring, the reasoning is embarrassingly bad and the analogies are lousy. I almost gave up after the first chapter because his arguments using the “Moral Law” were so shallow and obviously problematic, but I decided to keep reading in hopes it got better. It didn’t.
I started reading it with the sincere hope that it would help me out with belief. It was very disappointing. The book is often promoted as being the book to read for a reasoned defense of Christianity and belief. If this is the best defense of Christianity available, maybe Christianity isn’t for me.
It’s really too bad. I like C.S. Lewis and some of his other writings, but this book was a real disappointment.
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kaschmidt
Guest
Sorry to hear that, Benedictus. What books do you recommend?
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Keikiolu
Guest
“An infinite series” simply pushes the problem of “creation” to a very VERY long way away, but doesn’t eliminate it.
“An uncaused cause” sounds rather like “In the beginning God created…”.
Neither postulate eliminates the NEED for God.
If the NEED for God to have created creation hasn’t been eliminated, then it remains a NEED,… which we are surely allowed, even under “scientific requirements”, to hold as the truth.
The amount of certainty of any postulate (belief) is never 100%, unless a person simply decides that one of their beliefs is that some things for them will be held as beliefs with 100% certainty.
So,… you’ve chosen to hold the belief that NO beliefs CAN be held with 100% certainty,… which you’re free to do.
What are the side effects of your holding this belief…?
Those side effects are not what “believers in certainty” wish to inflict on themselves.
It’s as simple as that…
Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaika
i ia oe. Aloha nui.
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Keikiolu
Guest
Hmmm…
What examples of reasoning, specifically, did you find “bad”?
I’m curious because I have an odd feeling that you had some preconceptions that colored what you were reading.
Thanks.
Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaika
i ia oe. Aloha nui.
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tdgesq
Guest
Working backwards, you do discuss it but give us no reasons that justify the atheist’s belief that the senses are reliable and that past events are a reliable indicator future events. You just make a bare assertion that this isn’t faith. But by your own standard in order for it not to be faith there must be some evidence or reason supporting these propositions.
On the flip side, you positively assert that the theist believes in God on faith because there is no evidence or reason supporting it. None. Then you declare that it’s not your burden to establish this assertion. Tell me, what justification do you have for shifting the burden to the theist? It is legitimate to pose a challenge to theists to offer you some evidence of the existence of God. Perhaps that’s what you were meaning to do. But you are going to have a difficult time maintaining that you are an atheist if you can’t demonstrate that no such evidence exists.
Then you accept this on faith. Without proof that God doesn’t exist, all you can really say is that you don’t know whether God exists or not.
Religious people do make this assertion, but it is not the assertion that religious people sometimes make that is at issue. It is your assertion that God doesn’t exist.
But this is exactly what you have not demonstrated. That there is no empirical data that supports the existence of God. Even if you don’t accept as evidence any of what the theists here give you for God’s existence, the best you can do is say “well, I’ve never been presented with any evidence that God exists.” That is a far cry from having established that there is no evidence that God exists. Without establishing this, wouldn’t you have to say that is possible that God does exist?
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jmcrae
Guest
Meaning that the universe has always existed, but at one time it was in a different form.
True. It is just as impossible to prove that there is no God to someone who believes that he has spoken to God as it is to prove that there is a God to someone who begins by assuming that there is no God.
Faith in God begins with personal experience of God, and there is no way for another person to provide that experience to anyone. Most of us have these personal experiences when we are children, before anyone has tried to teach us that there is no God, but for some reason, some people miss out - these are the people who end up becoming atheists. Only God Himself can cure atheism - and for whatever reason, in many cases, He simply chooses not to. I often wonder if they will be held accountable, in the end. I’m thinking most likely not - unless God had revealed Himself to them at some point, and they deliberately chose to be atheists - but this seems very unlikely, to me.
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clmowry
Guest
You obviously “believe” something to be true or you wouldn’t have an opinion on the subject.
If you believe something that cannot be proven to be true then what is that if not faith?
Chuck
If you believe something that cannot be proven to be true then what is that if not faith?
Chuck
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clmowry
Guest
Really? Prove both.
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predator_CA
Guest
Yes, I do think it is possible for god to exist, but I don’t think it is probable or plausible.
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VociMike
Guest
Do you realize that the minute you say this, the only rational thing you can do is to believe in God and live your life accordingly? For improbable is nothing as compared to the infinite consequences, good or bad, that await you if God does happen to exist. Whether you think that probability is only 10% or 1% or 0.001%, the infinite consequences of that small percentage being true (neverending life in heaven, or neverending life in hell) infinitely outweigh the consequences of it not being true (those consequences being merely oblivion).
As I say, rationally you must now believe in God and live your life accordingly. To do otherwise is irrational.
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