Question in forming committed disciples

[fide]

Especially any folks involved in Forming Intentional Disciples - or Rediscovering Catholicism - or ChristLife - or any of the parish programs working in this…

What can/should we say to a man who used to be a committed disciple, but now it’s in doubt - he’s confused. At first he was very excited and happy about his part in actually doing the work of Christ - helping to lead people to Christ, to make intentional disciples of the Lord. But now all that is gone - he feels alone again, maybe even outside of the Lord - maybe he’s doing something wrong but he doesn’t know what. He used to find strength and encouragement in the Bible, and in prayer, but that too doesn’t work anymore. He tries to read the Bible, and hear from God’s Word, but he doesn’t feel like he can hear anything that helps at all. He had (he thought) found something real and good, and now it’s gone.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

 

[1neophyte]

 

[pianistclare]

Especially any folks involved in Forming Intentional Disciples - or Rediscovering Catholicism - or ChristLife - or any of the parish programs working in this…

What can/should we say to a man who used to be a committed disciple, but now it’s in doubt - he’s confused. At first he was very excited and happy about his part in actually doing the work of Christ - helping to lead people to Christ, to make intentional disciples of the Lord. But now all that is gone - he feels alone again, maybe even outside of the Lord - maybe he’s doing something wrong but he doesn’t know what. He used to find strength and encouragement in the Bible, and in prayer, but that too doesn’t work anymore. He tries to read the Bible, and hear from God’s Word, but he doesn’t feel like he can hear anything that helps at all. He had (he thought) found something real and good, and now it’s gone.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Encourage him to work in the St. Vincent dePaul ministry. It’s not necessarily a “Faith” ministry, it’s to fill immediate needs and the recipients are not necessarily Catholic. There, he can live out his faith, live out the Gospel message, live out the corporal works of mercy, and he can FEEL his relationship with Christ rather than outwardly talking about it. Sometimes when we see how the good that disciples do separated from the Church building, we come to realize that the church is everywhere, in some form or another. In this way, he can serve others without everyone knowing his story, he can serve Christ without sitting in the church and feeling dryness, and he can revitalize his own prayer life by making his life a prayer.

 

[fide]

Encourage him to work in the St. Vincent dePaul ministry. It’s not necessarily a “Faith” ministry, it’s to fill immediate needs and the recipients are not necessarily Catholic. There, he can live out his faith, live out the Gospel message, live out the corporal works of mercy, and he can FEEL his relationship with Christ rather than outwardly talking about it. Sometimes when we see how the good that disciples do separated from the Church building, we come to realize that the church is everywhere, in some form or another. In this way, he can serve others without everyone knowing his story, he can serve Christ without sitting in the church and feeling dryness, and he can revitalize his own prayer life by making his life a prayer.

Thank you - I think your word “dryness” is very fitting…

and I appreciate your thoughts and suggestions.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

I saw this happen to an old uni friend, he was on fire with his faith but upon graduation couldn’t find a church where he could serve. On speaking to him recently he said that he doesn’t think church is a bad thing but it’s for other people. For many a faith that’s not put into practice will wither and die.

I agree with both above comments that this person needs to find some work to do.

 

[fide]

Encourage him to work in the St. Vincent dePaul ministry. It’s not necessarily a “Faith” ministry, it’s to fill immediate needs and the recipients are not necessarily Catholic. There, he can live out his faith, live out the Gospel message, live out the corporal works of mercy, and he can FEEL his relationship with Christ rather than outwardly talking about it. Sometimes when we see how the good that disciples do separated from the Church building, we come to realize that the church is everywhere, in some form or another. In this way, he can serve others without everyone knowing his story, he can serve Christ without sitting in the church and feeling dryness, and he can revitalize his own prayer life by making his life a prayer.

Hi pianistclare - I’m going to respond to you and to ConfusedLucy in one post: please read it to you and to her…

 

[fide]

I saw this happen to an old uni friend, he was on fire with his faith but upon graduation couldn’t find a church where he could serve. On speaking to him recently he said that he doesn’t think church is a bad thing but it’s for other people. For many a faith that’s not put into practice will wither and die.

I agree with both above comments that this person needs to find some work to do.

ConfusedLucy and pianoclaire -

Since you both recommend work for this man in the OP, I wonder about the lesson in the “Martha and Mary” episode,

Luk 10:38 Now as they went on their way, he entered a village; and a woman named Martha received him into her house.
Luk 10:39 And she had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord’s feet and listened to his teaching.
Luk 10:40 But Martha was distracted with much serving; and she went to him and said, “Lord, do you not care that my sister has left me to serve alone? Tell her then to help me.”
Luk 10:41 But the Lord answered her, “Martha, Martha, you are anxious and troubled about many things;
Luk 10:42 one thing is needful. Mary has chosen the good portion, which shall not be taken away from her.”

Works can be a distraction, a diversion away from matters that can be heard and learned only through prayer - “the good portion”.

 

[pianistclare]

ConfusedLucy and pianoclaire -

Since you both recommend work for this man in the OP, I wonder about the lesson in the “Martha and Mary” episode,

Luk 10:38 Now as they went on their way, he entered a village; and a woman named Martha received him into her house.
Luk 10:39 And she had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord’s feet and listened to his teaching.
Luk 10:40 But Martha was distracted with much serving; and she went to him and said, “Lord, do you not care that my sister has left me to serve alone? Tell her then to help me.”
Luk 10:41 But the Lord answered her, “Martha, Martha, you are anxious and troubled about many things;
Luk 10:42 one thing is needful. Mary has chosen the good portion, which shall not be taken away from her.”

Works can be a distraction, a diversion away from matters that can be heard and learned only through prayer - “the good portion”.

But they both used their gifts, and they are BOTH Saints…so…we should do what elevates our spiritual lives. If he’s not “getting it” through regular worship, the usefulness he will feel will bring him back to worship. You can’t put the Holy Spirit in a cage, especially when working with the poor. One needs a good prayer life to keep engaged, and strong, as it can be difficult, but at the same time exhilarating to know you are doing the Lord’s work. Also, most chapters unite for prayer regularly. He won’t be “away” from his faith.

 

[fide]

But they both used their gifts, and they are BOTH Saints…so…we should do what elevates our spiritual lives. If he’s not “getting it” through regular worship, the usefulness he will feel will bring him back to worship. You can’t put the Holy Spirit in a cage, especially when working with the poor. One needs a good prayer life to keep engaged, and strong, as it can be difficult, but at the same time exhilarating to know you are doing the Lord’s work. Also, most chapters unite for prayer regularly. He won’t be “away” from his faith.

Yes, clare, we are called to good works - but guarding and nurturing the interior life is essential. All the “good” that we have to offer in works, is the fruit of our interior life. Note that neither Martha nor Mary were “born saints” - they both became saints, and it seems that Mary was on the right path before her sister found it. Indeed, maybe Martha found the path of sanctity because of the intervention of Jesus on the day of this correction of her priorities, and perhaps also because of the better example of her sister Mary.

The same with Peter. Peter was called “satan” by Jesus (Mat 16:23), when he was still on the side of men and not God, in the days before his profound inner conviction and repentance following his three-fold denial of Jesus. Peter also was not born as the man he was to become.

The point I am trying to make is that even good “good works” can become the enemy of the “perfect - as your heavenly Father is perfect” that we are called to become. Prayer is the journey to that holiness apart from which we cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

God is saying something crucially important to my friend in the OP - if he seeks to escape that confrontation with Truth by the path of busyness - even “good” busyness - it will not be good for him.

 

[pianistclare]

Yes, clare, we are called to good works - but guarding and nurturing the interior life is essential. All the “good” that we have to offer in works, is the fruit of our interior life. Note that neither Martha nor Mary were “born saints” - they both became saints, and it seems that Mary was on the right path before her sister found it. Indeed, maybe Martha found the path of sanctity because of the intervention of Jesus on the day of this correction of her priorities, and perhaps also because of the better example of her sister Mary.

The same with Peter. Peter was called “satan” by Jesus (Mat 16:23), when he was still on the side of men and not God, in the days before his profound inner conviction and repentance following his three-fold denial of Jesus. Peter also was not born as the man he was to become.

The point I am trying to make is that even good “good works” can become the enemy of the “perfect - as your heavenly Father is perfect” that we are called to become. Prayer is the journey to that holiness apart from which we cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

God is saying something crucially important to my friend in the OP - if he seeks to escape that confrontation with Truth by the path of busyness - even “good” busyness - it will not be good for him.

Ok, so it’s clear you’ve made up your mind and you have a plan for dealing with him.
Why did you ask?
Tell him what you think.

But don’t be surprised if he resists your effort.
Nobody likes to be lectured.

No one ever lost faith from helping others. If we can’t be the hands and feet of Christ, then have we heard the Gospel message?

Good luck.

 

[fide]

Ok, so it’s clear you’ve made up your mind and you have a plan for dealing with him.
Why did you ask?
Tell him what you think.

But don’t be surprised if he resists your effort.
Nobody likes to be lectured.

No one ever lost faith from helping others. If we can’t be the hands and feet of Christ, then have we heard the Gospel message?

Good luck.

Thank you.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

There is a saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I certainly wasn’t suggesting this person completely and permanently give up his prayer and spiritual life but he clearly sounds burnt out. Focusing on doing good work with a manageable daily prayer could reawaken the interior spiritual life. What he is doing right now isn’t working for him.

Ideally the interior prayer and exterior work should go together.

 

[Rosebud77]

There is a saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I certainly wasn’t suggesting this person completely and permanently give up his prayer and spiritual life but he clearly sounds burnt out. Focusing on doing good work with a manageable daily prayer could reawaken the interior spiritual life. What he is doing right now isn’t working for him.

Ideally the interior prayer and exterior work should go together./QUOTE]

Absolutely so. One inspires the other;the other breathes physical life into one. . Not either or. And work can become prayer. Is the expression of prayer.

 

[fide]

There is a saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I certainly wasn’t suggesting this person completely and permanently give up his prayer and spiritual life but he clearly sounds burnt out. Focusing on doing good work with a manageable daily prayer could reawaken the interior spiritual life. What he is doing right now isn’t working for him.

Ideally the interior prayer and exterior work should go together.

Does this part of the OP sound to you like he is “burned out”?

… he feels alone again, maybe even outside of the Lord - maybe he’s doing something wrong but he doesn’t know what. He used to find strength and encouragement in the Bible, and in prayer, but that too doesn’t work anymore. He tries to read the Bible, and hear from God’s Word, but he doesn’t feel like he can hear anything that helps at all. He had (he thought) found something real and good, and now it’s gone.

 

[fide]

ConfusedLucy;14818250:

There is a saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I certainly wasn’t suggesting this person completely and permanently give up his prayer and spiritual life but he clearly sounds burnt out. Focusing on doing good work with a manageable daily prayer could reawaken the interior spiritual life. What he is doing right now isn’t working for him.

Ideally the interior prayer and exterior work should go together.

/QUOTE]

Absolutely so. One inspires the other;the other breathes physical life into one. . Not either or. And work can become prayer. Is the expression of prayer.

Rosebud - and pianistclare - are either or both of you involved in any of the discipleship ministries I listed in the OP - or any other discipleship program? If so, which one(s)?

 

[ConfusedLucy]

Does this part of the OP sound to you like he is “burned out”?

… he feels alone again, maybe even outside of the Lord - maybe he’s doing something wrong but he doesn’t know what. He used to find strength and encouragement in the Bible, and in prayer, but that too doesn’t work anymore. He tries to read the Bible, and hear from God’s Word, but he doesn’t feel like he can hear anything that helps at all. He had (he thought) found something real and good, and now it’s gone.

I’m no psychiatrist but I know that though you can often force yourself to do something and keep doing it you can’t force yourself to feel something. Maybe he is burnt out, maybe he is overthinking things and getting in an anxious loop or maybe there is something going on that he isn’t telling you about. If trying to force a spiritual prayerful mindset isn’t working then surely he needs a different strategy for now.

 

[fide]

I’m no psychiatrist but I know that though you can often force yourself to do something and keep doing it you can’t force yourself to feel something. Maybe he is burnt out, maybe he is overthinking things and getting in an anxious loop or maybe there is something going on that he isn’t telling you about. If trying to force a spiritual prayerful mindset isn’t working then surely he needs a different strategy for now.

I agree he needs a different strategy…

BTW - CL, as I asked two other posters, you involved in any of the discipleship ministries I listed in the OP - or any other discipleship program? If so, which one(s)? I’m wondering if they offer any “different strategies”, and if so, what strategy, or would they recommend good works as well?

 

[Monica4316]

I would recommend the book “Soul of the Apostolate”. Sometimes we concentrate too much on the work or the apostolate and over time we lose the prayerfulness - work is good and necessary, but a life of prayer is foundational. The book talks about the importance of an interior life and how its very easy to become a person with an apostolate but no interior life, and then the apostolate itself begins to suffer and the person doesn’t know what happened…

I don’t know this person and if this is the case, but its a great book for anyone!

If he is just going through dryness, its very important to keep praying and to not evaluate one’s spiritual life based on feelings. Sometimes God hides and its always for a purpose. Making an act of trust in faith at this time is worth much more than prayers said in times of consolation.

 

[fide]

I would recommend the book “Soul of the Apostolate”. Sometimes we concentrate too much on the work or the apostolate and over time we lose the prayerfulness - work is good and necessary, but a life of prayer is foundational. The book talks about the importance of an interior life and how its very easy to become a person with an apostolate but no interior life, and then the apostolate itself begins to suffer and the person doesn’t know what happened…

I don’t know this person and if this is the case, but its a great book for anyone!

If he is just going through dryness, its very important to keep praying and to not evaluate one’s spiritual life based on feelings. Sometimes God hides and its always for a purpose. Making an act of trust in faith at this time is worth much more than prayers said in times of consolation.

Yes, there is much wisdom in your post. Thank you.

 

[Horton]

Possibly a retreat of some kind may be in order. Is there a monastery in the area where this person can either participate in a retreat or do a self directed one?

It could possibly be God is asking this person to do something and for whatever reason the person isn’t hearing it. I am in no way saying your friend is refusing to hear, but he may not be open to whatever it is yet.

I’ve had times of spiritual dryness, times when I just didn’t know if God knew I was there. Having read about spiritual dryness and knowing it can happen I made a decision to not let it rule my life. I went to Mass faithfully, I went to confession, I continued to pray and generally the dryness was there because I wasn’t hearing what God wanted me to do.

Advise your friend to be patient through this time, trust in God, and listen.