Question: Is gay marriage sinful?

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Brother, offering to have his daughters raped is still really bad. There is no excuse for it, and it wouldn’t have been culturally acceptable then either. If I had two daughters and two angels and they were threatening to rape the angels, I would not be like, “hey, don’t worry! I have two innocent young daughters! I’ll let you rape them instead!” It’s gross and shows a lack of trust in God.

And Lot was raped. His daughters got him drunk and tricked him into sleeping with them because he was too honorable to do so on his own. That’s rape.
 
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Maybe you missed this when I posted previously:
  • “If any one lie with a man as with a woman, both have committed an abomination, let them be put to death: their blood be upon them” Leviticus 20:13
  • “Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind, because it is an abomination” Leviticus 18:22
This is the Old Testament condemning sodomy and these quotes have NOTHING to do with rape.

And if we look at some of the Catholic Church’s teaching, it’s plainly obvious what sodomy is understood to mean:
  • Summa Theologica: "Thirdly, by copulation with an undue sex, male with male, or female with female, as the Apostle states (Rm. 1:27): and this is called the “vice of sodomy.”
 
A man can live with a man, but if the sin of sodomy comes into play, no one calling themselves Christian could possibly approve. I cannot believe what is being presented in this discussion - truly disturbing!!
 
The Epistle to the Romans calls these types of relationships shameful.
 
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I am not your dude…

We are speaking of the incident in Sodom and Gomhorra…Lot was not raped in this account…he was protected by the visitors.
You should also look into eastern customs of the time as to why he offered his daughters…of course it sounds alien and ludicrous to us in this day.
He was willing to offer his daughters for a less deviant kind of wickedness to protect his guests.
the Bible is not about perfect people doing perfect things…it shows men and women warts and all…

This story in particular is just one example of why homosexuality is not approved of…
 
I am not saying I do, Eddie, but Christians do. Alex and Alex’s church are evidence of that.

We can disagree on this matter and still recognize that there is far more that unites us than divides us, and while Catholics might disagree with Alex’s perspective, we can also recognize that she is approaching this issue in good faith, and that’s okay! It really is okay to disagree!
 
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It also says that they are unnatural or against nature. Something like that.
 
It really looks like rape is disapproved of. As it should be. And I believe the rape of a drunken Lot by his own daughters was explained. It seems his life was plagued by rape.
 
That’s not Christian, that’s DIABOLICAL. And just to be clear, any so-called religion that claims to be Christian but is separate from the Catholic Church is a false religion anyway, so I guess I’m not surprised to see this rubbish coming from a false religion…
 
I think this is getting heated without cause. So could we all take a breath? I am hoping for a sensible and goodwilled discussion on a hard topic.

I think the sin of Sodom was rape. It seems like the ever present theme throughout. And we can all agree that rape is hideous.

We can also agree that things Lot did were not exactly admirable. Offering up his own daughters to be raped is bad. I don’t think that’s controversial to say.
 
BlueMaxx said:
I am not your dude…
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Sorry, Blue Maxx! I did not mean “dude” in an offensive way. I will edited it to “brother.” Truly no offense intended!
BlueMaxx said:
We are speaking of the incident in Sodom and Gomhorra…Lot was not raped in this account…he was protected by the visitors.
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Lot’s story does not end in Gomhorra. He is later raped by his daughters. It is an ironic end to Lot’s story, but the stories are connected.
BlueMaxx said:
You should also look into eastern customs of the time as to why he offered his daughters…of course it sounds alien and ludicrous to us in this day.
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And I have BlueMaxx. While the Eastern customs certainly prioritize hospitality and give women very little authority, it was still recognized as unjust and immoral to offer his daughters to rapists.

And to be clear, I am not saying I approve homosexuality. I am also not saying that the Catholic interpretation is necessarily wrong. I am saying that many Biblical scholars would consider Lot’s lack of trust in God and his offering of his daughters to rapists as the central theme in the story.

I am not saying Alex337 is necessarily right. I do not have a PhD in Biblical studies. I only have two master’s degrees in theological fields, and neither of them are biblical studies. However, having studied under several biblical scholars with PhDs in several graduate level classes at a Catholic university, I have personally been taught and shown evidence to support the interpretation I outlined earlier. That is not to say the Catholic interpretation is wrong, but it is important to remove as many of our predisposition as possible.
 
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Eddie18 said:
And just to be clear, any so-called religion that claims to be Christian but is separate from the Catholic Church is a false religion anyway, so I guess I’m not surprised to see this rubbish coming from a false religion…
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I disagree. We are all part of the one body of Christ, and the teachings of Vatican II affirm this! As a matter of fact, while I have never been taught by a Quaker, I have been taught by Lutherans and even a Mennonite at my Catholic university. Truly, there is far, far more that unites us than divides us. Truly!
 
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We can certainly start another thread about Lot an this daughters…but this is in reference to homosexuality…

The Lord is more than clear…

Leviticus 18:22
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. 23 Nor shall you mate with any animal, to defile yourself with it. Nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it. It is perversion.24 ‘Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. 25 For the land is defiled; therefore I visit[c] the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants. 26 You shall therefore [d]keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations, either any of your own nation or any stranger who dwells among you 27 (for all these abominations the men of the land have done, who were before you, and thus the land is defiled), 28 lest the land vomit you out also when you defile it, as it vomited out the nations that were before you. 29 For whoever commits any of these abominations, the persons who commit them shall be [e]cut off from among their people.

Hence the destruction of Sodom and Gommhora…

Or how about…

Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

Romans 1:26
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the [j]men, leaving the natural use of the [k]woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

1 Corinthians 6:9
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor [c]sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were [d]sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Timothy 1
8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is [c]contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.

The last being SO important…
 
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Which is exactly why there are Catholic clergy and faithful all over the world that consider Vatican II heretical and in illegitimate Council. In the 1,962 years prior to Vatican II, what you are saying was openly condemned by the Catholic Church.
 
Sorry, Blue Maxx! I did not mean “dude” in an offensive way. I will edited it to “brother.” Truly no offense intended!

No worries! 😎

Sounds like ya have a pretty big brain pan goin’ on there…I won’t go trying to measure up against ya on that…Im just a simple southern Indiana fella…tho I did have sum skoolin 😁

Also I would be happy to engage in a separate thread about Lot and his daughters, but it is sort of a red herring in this discussion…
 
Eddie18 said:
That’s not Christian, that’s DIABOLICAL. And just to be clear, any so-called religion that claims to be Christian but is separate from the Catholic Church is a false religion anyway, so I guess I’m not surprised to see this rubbish coming from a false religion…
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You should tell the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops that you disapprove of the dialogues that they are carrying out with the Lutheran World Federation which includes the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) since, in your opinion, Lutherans are practicing a diabolical and false religion. And the ELCA allows its pastors to perform same-sex marriages, too. Here’s something from only three years ago:
WASHINGTON—Drawing on 50 years of national and international dialogue, Lutherans and Catholics together have issued the “Declaration on the Way: Church, Ministry and Eucharist,” a unique ecumenical document that marks a pathway toward greater visible unity between Catholics and Lutherans. The October 30 release of the document comes on the eve of the anniversary of Martin Luther’s posting the 95 Theses, which sparked the Protestant Reformation.

“Pope Francis in his recent visit to the United States emphasized again and again the need for and importance of dialogue. This Declaration on the Way represents in concrete form an opportunity for Lutherans and Catholics to join together now in a unifying manner on a way finally to full communion,” said Bishop Denis J. Madden, auxiliary bishop of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, Catholic co-chair of the task force creating the declaration.
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http://www.usccb.org/news/2015/15-147.cfm
 
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The Catholic Church has taught otherwise for 2000 years - it has always been very specific when referring to sodomy and when referring to rape. When anyone in this world says the word “sodomy”, everyone unanimously knows exactly what it means.
 
So, I believe I already covered my thoughts on Leviticus; Christ fulfilled the law. Romans warns against lust, I agree lust should be watched for.

In terms of Corinthians the phrase was “effeminate”, some translate this to mean male homosexuals but that seems like a weak interpretation when effeminate also refers to those who may lack courage or honour. All terribly sexist I know but language evolves.

As to Timothy we refer back to the “sin of Sodom”: rape.
 
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