Question: Is gay marriage sinful?

[Thorolfr]

There are things to be open-minded about, but re-definition of truth is not one of them. The Pope has never said that marriage is open to re-definition. You said that, and you implied that the Pope might agree with you.
It is not true, though.

On the issue of redefining of marriage, do you believe that all societies that don’t follow the Catholic model of marriage have redefined marriage? For example, do you believe that Muslims have redefined marriage since they practice polygyny, i.e. one man and up to four wives? Wikipedia says that more than 50 societies practice polyandry, i.e. one woman and two or more husbands. Have those societies also redefined marriage?

 

[Thorolfr]

There hasn’t been a Christian definition of marriage that included same-sex unions. That one is very rare, even in societies in general.

Fortunately, the US is not really a “Christian nation”. As John Adams wrote, “The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” So, our marriage laws need not be based on a Christian definition of marriage.

 

[anon10271182]

Still trotting out that same out of context and falsely attributed to John Adams passage from the Treaty of Tripoli, I see. The same John Adams who a year later proclaimed, in a presidential proclamation promoting a national day of humiliation, fasting, and prayer:
“that all religious congregations do, with the deepest humility, acknowledge before God the manifold sins and transgressions with which we are justly chargeable as individuals and as a nation, beseeching Him at the same time, of His infinite grace, through the Redeemer of the World, freely to remit all our offenses, and to incline us by His Holy Spirit to that sincere repentance and reformation which may afford us reason to hope for his inestimable favor and heavenly benediction."
And that is an exceedingly Christian statement.
John Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli–he didn’t write it. Time to set the record straight. You might do a little homework, in the future.

 

[JimG]

Even polygamists realize that marriage is between man and woman—even if more than one woman or more than one man. One doesn’t find polygamists or polyandrists practicing marriage between say, four men or four women with no opposite sex involved.

Marriage always means sexual complementarity. Otherwise, it is not marital; it is not marriage. That’s because humanity is composed of men and women. That’s why marriage exists. That’s why our species is not extinct.

We seem to have drifted into an age of fantasy, where reality is denied and fantasy becomes reality.

 

[Thorolfr]

Still trotting out that same out of context and falsely attributed to John Adams passage from the Treaty of Tripoli, I see. The same John Adams who a year later proclaimed, in a presidential proclamation promoting a national day of humiliation, fasting, and prayer:

The founding fathers in general were not as religious or as Christian as some people suppose. For example, Thomas Jefferson wrote the following in a letter to John Adams dated at Monticello, 11 April 1823:

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

https://books.google.com/books?id=kNIcAQAAIAAJ&lpg=PA284&pg=PA284#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[anon10271182]

Thomas Jefferson was a founding fathers, yes. But his views on the Christian religion were aberrant, compared with other early leaders. He was influenced by the French atheist revolutionaries. And what was the product of their revolution? The Reign of Terror, including wholesale murder of Catholic priests, nuns, and monks. The typical outcome of atheist totalitarianism.
I predict that quoting Jefferson’s arrogant and condescending equation of the teachings of Christ’s one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church with Roman paganism won’t fly very far, around here.

 

[anon10271182]

“There hasn’t been a Christian definition of marriage that included same-sex unions”

Quite true. Once any church starts celebrating same sex “marriages” it is no longer a church of Jesus Christ.

 

[Thorolfr]

Thomas Jefferson was a founding fathers, yes. But his views on the Christian religion were aberrant, compared with other early leaders. He was influenced by the French atheist revolutionaries. And what was the product of their revolution? The Reign of Terror, including wholesale murder of Catholic priests, nuns, and monks. The typical outcome of atheist totalitarianism.

I predict that quoting Jefferson’s arrogant and condescending equation of the teachings of Christ’s one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church with Roman paganism won’t fly very far, around here.

John Adams was not very different from Jefferson in his views on the Catholic Church. After visiting St. Mary’s Catholic Church in Philadelphia, John Adams wrote the following in a letter to his wife, Abigail dated 9 October 1774:

This afternoon, led by Curiosity and good Company I strolled away to [illegible] Mother Church, or rather Grandmother Church, I mean the Romish Chappell. Heard a good, short, moral Essay upon the Duty of Parents to their Children, founded in justice and Charity, to take care of their Interests temporal and spiritual.

This Afternoons Entertainment was to me, most awfull and affecting. The poor Wretches, fingering their Beads, chanting Latin, not a Word of which they understood, their Pater Nosters and Ave Maria’s. Their holy Water-their Crossing themselves perpetually-their Bowing to the Name of Jesus, their wherever they hear it-their Bowings, and Kneelings, and Genuflections before the Altar.

https://www.masshist.org/digitaladams/archive/doc?id=L17741009ja

I don’t agree with Adams, BTW. Having been brought up in a Baptist church, I’ve come to like high church traditions more.

 

[anon10271182]

It’s common knowledge that the early Americans, including their leaders, we’re often virulently anti-Catholic. So what?
And quoting the statements of others mocking the Catholic Church seems little different than making those statements in the first person.

 

[Thorolfr]

It’s common knowledge that the early Americans, including their leaders, we’re often virulently anti-Catholic. So what?
And quoting the statements of others mocking the Catholic Church seems little different than making those statements in the first person.

You were the one who brought up Thomas Jefferson’s statements about the Catholic Church and implying that he was somehow different than other early American leaders in that regard. I also stated that I don’t agree with Adams and I don’t agree with Jefferson, either, on this issue. There are certainly some Catholic doctrines with which I disagree, but there are also many traditions in the Catholic Church which I admire.

 

[anon10271182]

My exact words–

“Thomas Jefferson was a founding fathers, yes. But his views on the Christian religion were aberrant, compared with other early leaders.”

I italicize the word “Christian” by which I mean all Christians at the time, not just Catholics.

Jefferson was not only anti-Catholic, he was anti -Christian in general, since most Protestants also believe in the Incarnation and the virginity of Mary. Any statement equating the Incarnation with Roman myth is an insult to Christ Himself and all who follow Him.

 

[tweedlealice]

Petra G,
I like your reply. Like: we can’t add to the ten Commandments or change the message in Scripture.
Dear Alex,
I thought about, where did homosexuality occur? After the fall, as civilization grew, and there were more ppl, it happened.Sumaritans,Greeks, Romans, etc. continued on w liberal sex of any preference. The civilizations did develop marriage in early form. Who was the Daddy, had to be discovered. A form of Monogmy occurred. God didn’t guide Adam & Eve on what not to do. They know all, thatGod knows.No limits in choices. Then, SODOM & GOMORRAH happened. It is clear in scripture that a man lying w a man is an abomination.
God left us to our imaginings. We started wanting things that are not good for us.
So, God spoke to Abraham. He spoke to Moses. He set his commandments in stone. No matter how you want to work it, it’s a sin to live a homosexual life style. Homosexuality is not a sin, in of itself. When out practicing homosexual acts or a SSM, that is a sin!
There is an order of nature, Boy meets girl. Stay together and have babies. Our bodies have certain holes for certain functions. They are not to cross over. Our rectum is a sewer for trash coming through the body… YULK!
Why are there Homosexuals, Transgenders?
Hormonal shifts, During embryonic development, a small squirt of estrogen hits a males neural tube before it closes.Some scientists feel that might be a way.
We’re not to believe in reincarnation. There are some interesting stories about it. What if a guy was a girl in a previous life. Amnesia covers our transition, and we shouldn’t recall. But some do! Second time round he’s a guy. Trip 1- girl liked guy.
Trip. 2-guy likes guy. Spirit kept old wants???
Regardless Alex337, Heterosexuals & Homosexuals are to love GOD! Be CHASTE. ( no sex at all.) Three vocations are SINGLE LIFE=No sex.
2- RELIGIOUS LIFE=(no sex). 3- Married life is allowed to have sex to procreate. Purity is for all. Marrieds must be faithful.
Sex is not a god. The great orgasm doesn’t get you into heaven.
Believing in God,w a relationship w Jesus & the Holy Spirit will get us into heaven.
Seek ye first, the kingdom of God, & everything else will be added unto you.
In Christ’s Love
Tweedlealice

 

[Thorolfr]

I thought about, where did homosexuality occur? After the fall, as civilization grew, and there were more ppl, it happened.Sumaritans,Greeks, Romans, etc. continued on w liberal sex of any preference.

The problem with your analysis, tweedlealice, is that homosexual behavior occurs in many living species, including in many of our closest relatives among the great apes or hominids, including gorillas and bonobos. Since these other primates don’t have civilizations or live in cities, it seems unlikely that the rise of civilization could be a cause for homosexual behavior. This kind of behavior has undoubtedly always existed in human populations and in the populations from which we evolved.

 

[tweedlealice]

Dear Thorolfr,
I was only referring to Homo Sapiens. Yes, other species have homosexual behavior. Sex is a tactile function. It catches our attention.
My thinking is after being thrown out of Eden, man was left to his own. No instructions. God put different things in the psyche& body to help initiate sex. In Homosexuaality, there is a deviation from the NORM. Before Abraham& God, there were no rules. What rules occurred were made from man.
When we got so bad, as the lives, in SODOM & GOMMORAH, God took a stand. Reading scripture from that point on, Rules started popping up.
I figured God wanted to protect His creation in Eden. Satan interfered. Out they go to life… God Still loved His creation. After years, God reappears w Abraham. His teaching begins…God saw homosexuality. He created sex for procreation. Sex in marriage is precious. Indiscriminate sex, is sad.
He gave the rules for us to succeed in life. If we’re disobedient, things will change. It is!
We are all to be chaste. Marrieds must be faithful.Thats Gods plan. Still loves us. We still disappoint him.
In Christ’s Love
Tweedlealice

 

[Alex337]

Alex337:

Friend, you seem to be conflating two separate discussion threads. No wonder it’s confusing. nor did I ever say the pope said that, but feel free to show where I did?

Also, marriage isn’t being redefined. Marriages has had many different definitions through time.

Well, five days ago I guess someone on this thread was posting as you. Up around post 578…

There hasn’t been a Christian definition of marriage that included same-sex unions. That one is very rare, even in societies in general.

Multiple threads of conversation, friend.

We currently have plenty of Christian churches who define same sex marriages as marriages. Same sex marriages may have been rare, but they existed along with a multitude of other marriage types.

 

[Alex337]

Even polygamists realize that marriage is between man and woman—even if more than one woman or more than one man. One doesn’t find polygamists or polyandrists practicing marriage between say, four men or four women with no opposite sex involved.

Marriage always means sexual complementarity. Otherwise, it is not marital; it is not marriage. That’s because humanity is composed of men and women. That’s why marriage exists. That’s why our species is not extinct.

We seem to have drifted into an age of fantasy, where reality is denied and fantasy becomes reality.

Except when it doesn’t. People can have same sex marriages without humanity going extinct, friend. It’s happening right now and I haven’t noticed our numbers plummeting.

 

[Alex337]

“There hasn’t been a Christian definition of marriage that included same-sex unions”

Quite true. Once any church starts celebrating same sex “marriages” it is no longer a church of Jesus Christ.

Ah, No True Scotsman/Christian. Interesting argument but it doesn’t seem likely to fly.

 

[Alex337]

Dear Alex,
I thought about, where did homosexuality occur? After the fall, as civilization grew, and there were more ppl, it happened.Sumaritans,Greeks, Romans, etc. continued on w liberal sex of any preference. The civilizations did develop marriage in early form.
Who was the Daddy, had to be discovered. A form of Monogmy occurred. God didn’t guide Adam & Eve on what not to do. They know all, thatGod knows.No limits in choices. Then, SODOM & GOMORRAH happened. It is clear in scripture that a man lying w a man is an abomination.

I admit I have some trouble following this. But if you read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, and I fear we’ve been over this in this thread already but I may be misremembering, it doesn’t actually mention homosexuality so much as it delves into rape. The men of the town wanted to rape Gods messengers.

 God left us to our imaginings. We started wanting things that are not good for us. 
So, God spoke to Abraham. He spoke to Moses. He set his commandments in stone.  No matter how you want to work it, it’s a sin to live a homosexual life style. Homosexuality is not a sin, in of itself. When out practicing homosexual acts or a SSM, that is a sin! 
 There is an order of nature, Boy meets girl. Stay together and have babies. Our bodies have certain holes for certain functions. They are not to cross over. Our rectum is a sewer for trash coming through the body.. YULK!

Just because you find certain sexual acts unpleasant doesn’t mean everyone does. Nor does it even mean all homosexual people practice that particular act, I dare say few lesbians bother with it. Nor are we all made for having children.

  Why are there Homosexuals, Transgenders? 
   Hormonal shifts, During embryonic development, a small squirt of estrogen hits a males neural tube before it closes.Some scientists feel that might be a way. 
 We’re not to believe in reincarnation. There are some interesting stories about it. What if a guy was a girl in a previous life. Amnesia covers our transition, and we shouldn’t recall. But some do! Second time round he’s a guy. Trip 1- girl liked guy.

Trip. 2-guy likes guy. Spirit kept old wants???
Regardless Alex337, Heterosexuals & Homosexuals are to love GOD! Be CHASTE. ( no sex at all.) Three vocations are SINGLE LIFE=No sex.
2- RELIGIOUS LIFE=(no sex). 3- Married life is allowed to have sex to procreate. Purity is for all. Marrieds must be faithful.
Sex is not a god. The great orgasm doesn’t get you into heaven.
Believing in God,w a relationship w Jesus & the Holy Spirit will get us into heaven.
Seek ye first, the kingdom of God, & everything else will be added unto you.
In Christ’s Love
Tweedlealice

I see no reason for homosexual folk to have a loving marriage.

 

[Sipetradayni]

God’s purpose for marriage is union and procreation and it can only be made possible between a man and a woman. In gay marriage, there’s no real marriage 'coz God’s purpose for marriage is not served.

 

[Alex337]

God’s purpose for marriage is union and procreation and it can only be made possible between a man and a woman. In gay marriage, there’s no real marriage 'coz God’s purpose for marriage is not served.

Quick question; can sterile people also not be married?