[Question] Monarchy of God the Father

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I have a few simple questions. I heard this quote from an EO inquirying OO. Agio was the first few letters of his name.
They dogmatically teach that “the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son as from one principle”. What other eternal procession from the both the Father and the Son as if from one principle could possibly be suggesting besides the ontological spiration of the Holy Spirit? To teach that the Holy Spirit is generated from the Father and the Son is to compromise the monarchy of the Father and perverts the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity.
The quote was from a thread made by a non-Catholic, non-Othrodox seeking Christ’s Church.

So I’m a bit confused. Could someone knowledgable help me out.
  1. What does he mean about the monarchy of the Father?
  2. Isn’t all three persons of God all part of one being, God?
  3. Is there a surpremacy or primacy or anything like a monarchy of one Person over the others?
  4. What does “spiration” mean in this context?
  5. And what is the underlining issue here between this individual’s claim as the dispute between the two Churches?
For background, I read a few of the threads about the filioque. However, it’s confusing in the sense that isn’t God God. How do we know exactly and why is the Catholic understanding wrong?

Thank you for your time and efforts. I’m an easily confused child and I appreciate your patience.
 
I haven’t heard of a doctrine regarding the Monarchy of the Father, but it is certainly scriptural:

“Then the end will come, when he [Christ] hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.” (1 Corinthians 15:24)

Now obviously this cannot be interpreted to mean that one Person of the Holy Trinity is superior to the others since They are all equal - They are all God. But this falsifies your friend’s theory. Because if the future Monarchy of the Father precludes the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Son, then the current Monarchy of the Son would preclude the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father! No, the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son…

“And I will ask the Father, and he [the Father] will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—the Spirit of truth.” (John 14:16-17)

“Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I [the Son] will send him to you.” (John 16:7)

Also, the Holy Spirit is described as the Love between the Father and the Son, which Love is obviously mutual. So again, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. And of course, since God exists eternally the Holy Spirit must proceed from the Father and the Son eternally. But your friend makes another error when he changes the dogmatic term “proceeds” to his word “generates” - that is not the same thing, and I don’t think the Catholic Church has ever declared that the the Son generates the Holy Spirit. I think that both the Catholic and Orthodox understanding of this can be harmonized if we say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son. But hopefully somebody more knowledgeable than me on this issue can answer that. Here’s more from Scripture and the early Church:

scripturecatholic.com/the_holy_spirit.html

God bless.
 
StillWondering, would you like me to speak for myself?
Sure thing Agios. I did not wanted to be off-topic so I made a new thread. If you can clarify what you meant it would be very helpful. And can you contrast that with Catholic teaching on the Trinity in the same respects so I can see what you mean in different perspectives?
 
The monarchy of the Father is a description of the Father as the “source” of the godhead. He’s the person of the Trinity that is neither begotten nor proceeds. This has no effect on the other persons of the Trinity as far as co-omnipotence, etc. It does figure into the economy of salvation, though, and the differing relations between the persons of the Trinity.

Spiration refers to the “breathing forth” of the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father and the Son. The problem is that the Orthodox tend to interpret the filioque as meaning some sort of joint breathing forth of the Spirit by the Father and Son. Most Orthodox theologians (and all the Catholic ones I know of) would accept “from the Father through the Son” as the better formulation. The picture is like this:

Father --------->Son-------------->Spirit

Rather than:

Father
I
I Spirit
I /
Son

The quote you gave messes up itself in speaking of the Holy Spirit as “generated.” The HS is eternal. There is no generation.
 
Thank you both Luke and Kook. That makes a lot more sense, particular Kook’s explaination. If Agios comes back maybe I can understand what Agios means in his own words. At least I understand the terms. =)
 
To teach that the HS and the SP are generated compromises the Son as only begotten. They agree that theHoly Spirit proceeds from theFather and the Son as from one principle but disagree that the Son is the final cause of the Holy Spirit. The Son is the image of the Father and the Spirit is the image of the Son. This doctrin is what they feel compromises the Monarchy of the Father.

Roman Cathiolics defend this doctrin by saying that the Son is the image of the Father so the image of the Holy Spirit is the Father’s image :twocents:
 
Thank you both Luke and Kook. That makes a lot more sense, particular Kook’s explaination. If Agios comes back maybe I can understand what Agios means in his own words. At least I understand the terms. =)
We can best glimpse the trinity when we think of God alone as eternal being, existing alone, before He created anything, and what we know about what God is, His perfections.

He is love, life, truth, existance. God is uncreated. If the Father created the Son, the Son is not eternal and therefore not God, since God is eternal. Therefore the father did not come before the Son. Father ----> Son ------> Holy Spirit, does not work.

Jesus said everything the Father has is mine. All that the Father is, Jesus is. The Father gives Himself to the Son entirely, holding nothing back. What does the Son do. He gives Himself to the Father. They do this eternally, from before time began.

We say that God is infinite. If the Father had something the Son lacked then the Son would not be infinite, and not God.

In this self donation we see a giver of a gift, the gift, and the receiver, a trinity. Love gives Love to Love, a trinity.

This eternal giving we can see this way. Father <-------->Holy Spirit<--------->Son.

Before the schism of Orthodox and Catholic everyone agreed on a word formula. The Trinity is three persons with one nature. In order to understand this some we have to think about the difference between person and nature. A person is about who we are, a nature is about what we do. You have human nature so you walk, talk, eat, read, see, smell, sing, laugh, cry, etc. So do I. We share human nature, although we are not identical. Maybe you have freckles and I do not. Or you have athletic ablity I lack and do things I can’t. The three divine persons are identical, because they are infiinte. They all possess the same attributes to the same infinite degree. That means they all do the same things and are the same.

Some people object to the idea that the Church says the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. Maybe it might help if more was said. If the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, where does He go? Eternally He goes to the Son. There was no other place to go, before God made creation. If the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son, where does He go? He goes to the Father. This giving and receiving, God giving God to God is eternal, so all three are eternal Being.
 
This eternal giving we can see this way. Father <-------->Holy Spirit<--------->Son.
This is exactly the wrong idea of the Procession of the Holy Spirit, and precisely what the Orthodox object to. It’s also against the teaching of the Church Fathers.

The proper diagram would be this:

Father =====>Son>------Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit is with and through the Son, from the Father. We can’t say that the Father and Son contribute to the Holy Spirit distinctly. This is why the whole “relationship of Love” notion is problematic and does more to harm the teaching of the filioque than to resolve it.

The proper teaching, embraced by both East and West, is that the Father alone is the Source of the Holy Spirit, and that the Son receives the Spirating of the Holy Spirit, not as if the Son is the “target”, but that the Son receives the “power” to bring forth the Holy Spirit from the Father precisely because He is the Son.

This is the Monarchy of the Father, that the Father is the sole Source of all deity. That is also the teaching of the Council of Florence:
The Latins asserted that they say the holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son not with the intention of excluding the Father from being the source and principle of all deity, that is of the Son and of the holy Spirit, nor to imply that the Son does not receive from the Father, because the holy Spirit proceeds from the Son, nor that they posit two principles or two spirations
The diagram posted above shows two principles and two spirations, directly contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Peace and God bless!
 
This is exactly the wrong idea of the Procession of the Holy Spirit, and precisely what the Orthodox object to. It’s also against the teaching of the Church Fathers.

The proper diagram would be this:

Father =====>Son>------Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit is with and through the Son, from the Father. We can’t say that the Father and Son contribute to the Holy Spirit distinctly. This is why the whole “relationship of Love” notion is problematic and does more to harm the teaching of the filioque than to resolve it.

The proper teaching, embraced by both East and West, is that the Father alone is the Source of the Holy Spirit, and that the Son receives the Spirating of the Holy Spirit, not as if the Son is the “target”, but that the Son receives the “power” to bring forth the Holy Spirit from the Father precisely because He is the Son.

This is the Monarchy of the Father, that the Father is the sole Source of all deity. That is also the teaching of the Council of Florence:

The diagram posted above shows two principles and two spirations, directly contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Peace and God bless!
Thanks, Ghosty! You’re exactly right. 👍
 
I don’t think the error is conceptual it’s in keyboard limitation.

I’m beginning to consider the Monarchy of the Father as a false alert and an obstacle in developing understanding. No matter how you slice it God generating Cognizance of Himself , that is, His Word, the second Person, in of it’self preserves the Monachy of the Father. The distinction that identifies God The Father preserves the Monarchy IMO
 
but that the Son receives the “power” to bring forth the Holy Spirit from the Father precisely because He is the Son.

!
I’m not sure I agree. The Father spirating and generating two persons one of which recieves power to bring forth the other is problematic

Father ======>Son-------------->HS
Father ------------>HS

admittedly I’m a rookie at this
 
I’m not sure I agree. The Father spirating and generating two persons one of which recieves power to bring forth the other is problematic

Father ======>Son-------------->HS
Father ------------>HS

admittedly I’m a rookie at this
Well, that’s what the Council of Florence has defined so it’s what Catholics have to go on. The Son receives from the Father, and the Father is the Source of deity.

Saying that the Holy Spirit is somehow put back and forth between the Father and the Son, or that both contribute distinctly, is exactly the “double procession” that is anathemized by the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic Communion. The Holy Spirit must be from a single Spiration, not a Spiration from the Father and then also from the Son, but from the Father and Son together, with the Father being the principal of all deity.
I’m beginning to consider the Monarchy of the Father as a false alert and an obstacle in developing understanding. No matter how you slice it God generating Cognizance of Himself , that is, His Word, the second Person, in of it’self preserves the Monachy of the Father. The distinction that identifies God The Father preserves the Monarchy IMO
The Monarchy of the Father is only preserved if the Father alone is the Source of deity, as both the Orthodox and the Catholic Communions have declared. You won’t find any Church Fathers who say otherwise, not even St. Augustine. 🙂

Peace and God bless!
 
He is love, life, truth, existance. God is uncreated. If the Father created the Son, the Son is not eternal and therefore not God, since God is eternal. Therefore the father did not come before the Son. Father ----> Son ------> Holy Spirit, does not work.
Nobody is suggesting that the Father created the Son. The Son is eternally begotten.
I’m not sure I agree. The Father spirating and generating two persons one of which recieves power to bring forth the other is problematic

Father ======>Son-------------->HS
Father ------------>HS

admittedly I’m a rookie at this
Right. If the Spirit proceeds from the Father alone, with no involvement of the Son, what you wind up with is two Sons, since the relations between them and the Father are identical.
 
Well, that’s what the Council of Florence has defined so it’s what Catholics have to go on. The Son receives from the Father, and the Father is the Source of deity.

Saying that the Holy Spirit is somehow put back and forth between the Father and the Son, or that both contribute distinctly, is exactly the “double procession” that is anathemized by the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic Communion. The Holy Spirit must be from a single Spiration, not a Spiration from the Father and then also from the Son, but from the Father and Son together, with the Father being the principal of all deity.

The Monarchy of the Father is only preserved if the Father alone is the Source of deity, as both the Orthodox and the Catholic Communions have declared. You won’t find any Church Fathers who say otherwise, not even St. Augustine. 🙂

Peace and God bless!
It would be more than amazing if we could use a keyboard and make a stick drawing that would capture the Infinite.

The Father gives Himself to the Son. Father ---------> Son. If we do not want to use the divine perfection of love, let’s use life. Life------------->Life. The Divine Persons are in a communion. They are not separate beings sitting in a room, apart from one another. Maybe a mental picture of life------->life would be two identical glasses, one being poured out into the other. But now one is empty and the other full. The Father empties Himself into the Son and is never emptied, but remains full. Another problem with this analogy is it is in time. They emptying takes time.

The Divine Persons would be different if one had something the other lacked. If that were the case one could be infinite, but the other not. So we say the Father continually gives all of Himself, all that He has and is, to the Son.

The problem with a drawing X-------->X is that it is a dead end, and it shows a giver and a receiver without showing the thing that is given, the gift. If we say X–gives—>X–to–>X, we can see the giver, the gift and the receiver, but it is still a dead end. The action is done.
One glass is emptied and the other full. God is eternally full and emptying Himself into Himself. We can have an image of a well spring.

What does the Son then do when He receives the Father? He gives Himself back to the Father. Jesus comes from the Father and goes or returns to the Father, eternally. We hear Him saying this in scripture.

So we see X<=======>X. There is an endless or eternal giving, not a dead end. They are two distinct persons with identical nature. But God is three persons, not two.

Remember that God has no beginning. God has no source. He exists of Himself. He alone exists of Himself. That means that if Jesus is a Divine Person, God, and exists of Himself, He has no source. But Florence says the Father is the source of the Godhead. Yet if Jesus is God He can have no beginning. The Father can be the eternal source of the Son if from all eternity the Son comes from the Father without beginning. Father--------->Son. But Jesus says He goes back to the Father. Father<-------Son. All that He has and is He receives from the Father and returns. Father<===>Son.

We can have a mistaken image if we leave it at that. We could see a father son image of an adult and a boy, a big and a little. But both Persons are Infinite, the same.

We can say Existence gives Existence to Existence. God is eternal, so why not say Existence gives Existence to Existence, to Existence, to Existence eternally? E-------->E------->E--------->E-------->E. Then you have God not in three Divine Persons, but infinite persons. The last diagram would describe the way Mormons see God. They use the term eternal progression.

But we know the Son comes from and returns to the Father. F<=====>S. We have God giving and receiving God, from God.

The Son receives and gives, but not in that order. It is simultaneous giving and receiving, or else you have time, and God exists eternally, not in time.
 
Right. If the Spirit proceeds from the Father alone, with no involvement of the Son, what you wind up with is two Sons, since the relations between them and the Father are identical.
That is very good perspective. Thank you.
 
The Son receives and gives, but not in that order. It is simultaneous giving and receiving, or else you have time, and God exists eternally, not in time.
The problem is that nowhere in Scripture does it say that the Son “gives back” to the Father, especially not the Holy Spirit. Also, nowhere in the early Church Fathers is such a thing said.

It is purely theological speculation with no grounding in Scripture or Patristics, and therefore doesn’t belong in any discussion of dogma, especially with the Orthodox and Eastern Catholics. When we get this far into human speculation aside from Divine Revelation we will always run into problems; the moment we put theological speculation above and/or beyond actual Divine Revelation we have lost all legitimacy in speaking on the topic.

It’s worth pointing out that even the greatest theologians who used the language of “Love between the Father and the Son” did not do so to indicate any kind of “back and forth”, but rather that the Love proceeds ever outward. So the Father Loves the Son (and Himself, and the Holy Spirit, and all creation) in breathing forth the Holy Spirit, and the Son Loves the Father (and Himself, and the Holy Spirit, and all creation) by breathing forth the Holy Spirit. This is because the Holy Spirit, being a Person of the Divine Nature, contains the Father and the Son in Himself, in a certain sense, as they share the same being; just as we say the Son is the Image of the Father, and the Holy Spirit is the Image of the Son. So just as I love my painting, and the object of my painting, by painting and putting it forth, so is the Holy Spirit the Love of God. There is no reference to an object that receives this Love as if it is a back and forth, but rather the object that is represented by the act of Love (in this case God is shown by the Holy Spirit).

This is not to say that the Holy Spirit is the essential power of Divine Love (which is common to the whole Trinity), but rather that the Holy Spirit is the expression of Divine Love as a Person, just as the Son is the expression of Divine Wisdom (the Logos) as a Person.

Incidentally (and a bit off-topic), this is also where I believe the Byzantine language of the Holy Spirit proceeding “energetically” from the Son, but essentially from the Father comes from. The Father alone is the source of all Deity, and the Holy Spirit is ultimately a reflection of the Father Himself, but the Son also puts forth the Holy Spirit eternally as the ultimate and infinite act of Love. The Holy Spirit, in this sense, can’t be essentially from the Son because the Son Himself is ultimately from the Father, but the Holy Spirit can and is eternally breathed forth by the Son, and this is an energetic action (not to be confused with the Divine Energy, which is the action of the whole Trinity and Divine Nature Itself). This is also the belief and definition of the West, as can be seen at Florence when it says that the Son receives from the Source, who is the Father (or when theologians like Augustine and Aquinas speak of the Father being the principal principle), but the Latins never utilized this linguistic distinction to the same degree as the Greeks, and so it can be easily overlooked when we’re not careful.

Peace and God bless!
 
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It’s worth pointing out that even the greatest theologians who used the language of “Love between the Father and the Son” did not do so to indicate any kind of “back and forth”,
God is love. The three persons are love. They are the same.
There is no reference to an object that receives this Love as if it is a back and forth, but rather the object that is represented by the act of Love (in this case God is shown by the Holy Spirit).
Goodness! Are you saying the Son does not love the Father and the proof of it is that you can’t find a scripture that says He does?

Jesus came from the Father and returned to the Father. Into your hands I commend my spirit. I go to the father.
This is not to say that the Holy Spirit is the essential power of Divine Love (which is common to the whole Trinity), but rather that the Holy Spirit is the expression of Divine Love as a Person, just as the Son is the expression of Divine Wisdom (the Logos) as a Person.
If you try to attribute the different perfections of God to one of the Divine Persons and not the other, you make them different in nature. They are three persons with ONE nature. Sorry I did not mean to yell, but only emphasize, one nature, one and the same.

Jesus is God’s love revealed. If you have seen me you have seen the Father. I and the Father are one.
Incidentally (and a bit off-topic), this is also where I believe the Byzantine language of the Holy Spirit proceeding “energetically” from the Son, but essentially from the Father comes from. The Father alone is the source of all Deity,
We can use the word source as long as it does not mean beginning. The Three Persons eternally exist. One did not create the other. We do use the word begotten alone (begotten not made) in the Creed, but what is meant is eternally begotten, without beginning.
[/QUOTE]
 
Goodness! Are you saying the Son does not love the Father and the proof of it is that you can’t find a scripture that says He does?

Jesus came from the Father and returned to the Father. Into your hands I commend my spirit. I go to the father.
Christ going back to the Father does not indicate a going back and forth of the Trinity, it simply means that Christ is going to the Father.

Obviously the Son Loves the Father, but not by “giving” anything to the Father. The Father gives, the Son receives. The Son does not “give” to the Father in any eternal sense, and this much is said by the Council of Florence. The Son Loves the Father by breathing forth the Holy Spirit, not TO the Father, but simply by breathing Him forth. This is similar to how I love a picture by painting it; I don’t give anything to the painting, I simply paint it. Since the Holy Spirit is “from the Father”, the Son Loves the Father by breathing the Holy Spirit forth. That is the only way that the Holy Spirit can be said to be the Love between the Father and the Son.
We can use the word source as long as it does not mean beginning. The Three Persons eternally exist. One did not create the other. We do use the word begotten alone (begotten not made) in the Creed, but what is meant is eternally begotten, without beginning.
Obviously Source doesn’t mean a beginning in time, and it doesn’t even imply it by its definition. It means that the Father is the foundation of the Trinity; the Son is the Image of the Father, and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father. The Son and Holy Spirit reflect nothing other than the Father, and this relationship is eternal.
Something that is infinite is unchanging. If a thing is expanding or increasing (proceeding outward), it is changing. But God is imutable. If something changes there is a before and an after (time). God exists outside of time. God is eternal and imutable. If God were to change then He is something different after than He was before. Infinity can not change, or God is not eternal infinite being. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
Unchanging doesn’t mean static and innactive. Begetting and Spirating are actions, but eternal and unchanging actions. The Son is eternally begotten, and the Holy Spirit is eternally Spirated. God is eternally begetting, and eternally spirating, and these actions are going “ever outward”, not in the sense of change, or in the sense of approaching something external, but in that they are eternal expressions, and not static states.
If you try to attribute the different perfections of God to one of the Divine Persons and not the other, you make them different in nature. They are three persons with ONE nature. Sorry I did not mean to yell, but only emphasize, one nature, one and the same.

Jesus is God’s love revealed. If you have seen me you have seen the Father. I and the Father are one.
There is an essential nature, and a Personal expression of certain traits of the Divine Nature. The Wisdom of God, which is God, and contains all that God is, is the Word. The Essential Wisdom is shared by all Persons, but the Wisdom expressed is the Son; this much is said by St. John in his Gospel when he says that “in the beginning there was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”. Likewise the Holy Spirit can be said to be the Personal expression of Divine Love, not as the essential attribute which is common to the Trinity, but as “God going forth in Love”, with Personal being.

continued…
 
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