Question of Baptism Validity

[v1gilbert]

During my last trip to Oklahoma, I asked more questions related to Baptism and my family. As it turned out, my grandmother (My mom’s mother) was not Baptized, neither was my sister.

My sister shares the desire for Baptism, she always assumed she was because she was dedicated (Christened as my dad’s mother called it) in the Nazarene faith but my mom confirmed that she was not Baptized. Dedication in the Nazarene faith is where the parents come before the congregation and state a profession of faith to raise the child in accordance with Nazarene Doctrines. Later the children are expected to be Baptized in the correct Trinitarian formula. Just to let you know my sister is going to speak to her minister very soon about getting Baptized.

My grandmother is a different story, she was diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic during the 1970’s, my grandfather took care of her at home until he passed and my mother took up care after that. She fell and went to the hospital, during the psych examination the psychiatrist mentioned that that diagnosis was utilized too frequently at the time and found the diagnosis to better suit her was untreated severe depression which led to dementia. She has a fairly sharp mind, remembers dates very well (Birthdays etc.) and she stated very clearly to me that she was never Baptized, which would fit with her Nazarene and particular family background.

Long story, short I had Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma with me, and took the formula straight from that section on the Sacraments gave it to my mom and told her to Baptize her (My mother has been Baptized). My mom, did the Baptism this past Sunday but had a follow up question. Since my grandmother is somewhat out of sorts, she probably would have rejected the Baptism if we had explicitly asked her or expressly informed her what we were doing. Is the Baptism valid?

Please let me know.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

During my last trip to Oklahoma, I asked more questions related to Baptism and my family. As it turned out, my grandmother (My mom’s mother) was not Baptized, neither was my sister.

My sister shares the desire for Baptism, she always assumed she was because she was dedicated (Christened as my dad’s mother called it) in the Nazarene faith but my mom confirmed that she was not Baptized. Dedication in the Nazarene faith is where the parents come before the congregation and state a profession of faith to raise the child in accordance with Nazarene Doctrines. Later the children are expected to be Baptized in the correct Trinitarian formula. Just to let you know my sister is going to speak to her minister very soon about getting Baptized.

My grandmother is a different story, she was diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic during the 1970’s, my grandfather took care of her at home until he passed and my mother took up care after that. She fell and went to the hospital, during the psych examination the psychiatrist mentioned that that diagnosis was utilized too frequently at the time and found the diagnosis to better suit her was untreated severe depression which led to dementia. She has a fairly sharp mind, remembers dates very well (Birthdays etc.) and she stated very clearly to me that she was never Baptized, which would fit with her Nazarene and particular family background.

Long story, short I had Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma with me, and took the formula straight from that section on the Sacraments gave it to my mom and told her to Baptize her (My mother has been Baptized). My mom, did the Baptism this past Sunday but had a follow up question. Since my grandmother is somewhat out of sorts, she probably would have rejected the Baptism if we had explicitly asked her or expressly informed her what we were doing. Is the Baptism valid?

Please let me know.

I don’t know what the rules are for Baptism in the Nazarene faith. But in the Catholic faith an adult must request or somehow indicate that they want to be Baptized, for the Baptism to be valid. Exception is if they sort of indicated this but fell into a coma before being able to be asked specifically. The Baptism would be considered valid, but the actual effect would be known only to God.

 

[palmas85]

During my last trip to Oklahoma, I asked more questions related to Baptism and my family. As it turned out, my grandmother (My mom’s mother) was not Baptized, neither was my sister.

My sister shares the desire for Baptism, she always assumed she was because she was dedicated (Christened as my dad’s mother called it) in the Nazarene faith but my mom confirmed that she was not Baptized. Dedication in the Nazarene faith is where the parents come before the congregation and state a profession of faith to raise the child in accordance with Nazarene Doctrines. Later the children are expected to be Baptized in the correct Trinitarian formula. Just to let you know my sister is going to speak to her minister very soon about getting Baptized.

My grandmother is a different story, she was diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic during the 1970’s, my grandfather took care of her at home until he passed and my mother took up care after that. She fell and went to the hospital, during the psych examination the psychiatrist mentioned that that diagnosis was utilized too frequently at the time and found the diagnosis to better suit her was untreated severe depression which led to dementia. She has a fairly sharp mind, remembers dates very well (Birthdays etc.) and she stated very clearly to me that she was never Baptized, which would fit with her Nazarene and particular family background.

Long story, short I had Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma with me, and took the formula straight from that section on the Sacraments gave it to my mom and told her to Baptize her (My mother has been Baptized). My mom, did the Baptism this past Sunday but had a follow up question. Since my grandmother is somewhat out of sorts, she probably would have rejected the Baptism if we had explicitly asked her or expressly informed her what we were doing. Is the Baptism valid?

Please let me know.

I would think not. Adults have to be willing participants in the ceremony or at least to have expressed a desire for it. Since he probably would have rejected the Baptism I doubt it would sbe valid. Now if she was dying that would be a different story

 

[Walking_Home]

I would think not. Adults have to be willing participants in the ceremony or at least to have expressed a desire for it. Since he probably would have rejected the Baptism I doubt it would sbe valid. Now if she was dying that would be a different story

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Palmas—how would it be different. If a person would reject baptism to begin with----how would it be different if the person was dying.

 

[palmas85]

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Palmas—how would it be different. If a person would reject baptism to begin with----how would it be different if the person was dying.

I believe, but I’m not sure, that if the person is dying and cannot state for himself his desire for or against baptism that the Church says go ahead and do it. If on the other had as in this case the person would probably reject it had they known about it, it probably should not be done. As I said I may be wrong but it would seem to make sense.

 

[puzzleannie]

Long story, short I had Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma with me, and took the formula straight from that section on the Sacraments gave it to my mom and told her to Baptize her (My mother has been Baptized). My mom, did the Baptism this past Sunday but had a follow up question. Since my grandmother is somewhat out of sorts, she probably would have rejected the Baptism if we had explicitly asked her or expressly informed her what we were doing. Is the Baptism valid?

Please let me know.

I followed the story until this paragraph then you lost me. you can’t seriously tell us you read in Ott’s book a direction for you to go an baptize someone who is not in danger of death and who has not even expressed a desire for Christian baptism.
This is illicit. Even in such a situation where a person is baptized in an emergency situation, the parish priest of the jurisdiction must be informed so the baptism can be recorded, and if the person survives he must complete the rite. He is also the judge of proper form and validity. contact the parish priest at once if I am reading right and this baptism was performed.

If a Nazarene approaches the Catholic Church for full communion they would probably receive a conditional baptism unless they could provide proof that the baptism was through proper form, water and trinitarian formula.

 

[v1gilbert]

puzzleannie - Let me state this more clearly and I will rely solely on your ability to discern my sincere intentions to have my grandmother incorporated into the Body of Christ, this close to her death. No I only got the correct formula from Ott’s amazing book, did not mean to imply that (don’t think I did actually) but thanks for your charitable response.

My grandmother is now currently out of her mind and had started degrading since she witnessed her mother die in her twenties, shortly after the birth of my Mom. She always went to Church and made sure her daughters did, even tried to have my grandfather do an alter call. However, by the time I was born and can remember she completely gone (30 some odd years now); she even thought at one point that Richard Nixon was living in her air ducts and trying turn everyone against her. I might have sugar coated her mental state earlier.

My point about her memory was to emphasize the fact that she has never been Baptized, which is common for Nazarene’s until they reach the age of reason. Nazarene’s Baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit so that is a valid Sacrament.

If my grandmother was not currently out of her mind I would be able to help convince her of the necessity of Baptism (the true grace would have come from the Holy Spirit), like I have with my sister and mother.

Again, is it valid? Or should I just call in on the show to hear actual valid and sincere responses?

 

[Mommyof02green]

Again, is it valid? Or should I just call in on the show to hear actual valid and sincere responses?

For a sacrament to be valid, three things have to be present: the correct form, the correct matter, and the correct intention. With baptism, the correct intention is to do what the Church does, the correct matter is water, and the correct form is the baptizing “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matt. 28:19). click here for source.

It sound like it had a valid form. However the question is was it right for your mom to baptize your Grandma? I don’t know. I do know what is stated in the CCC:
"CCC paragraph 1284:

In case of necessity, any person can baptize provided that he have the intention of doing that which the Church does and provided that he pours water on the candidate’s head while saying: “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”

Was it necessary for your Mom to do it? Was it possible to arrange a priest to do it? Was it possible to arrange a “clergy” member of your Grandmother’s Church to do it? You said that she is a “Nazarene”

I don’t understand what was the urgency was to have your Mother do it? Was there “time” to arrange a clergy member to do it?

Also there is Br. Rich SFO response:

But in the Catholic faith an adult must request or somehow indicate that they want to be Baptized, for the Baptism to be valid.

I’m sure that Br. Rich, if need could provide some quote from the CCC or Canon Law to show how this is the case. I do know that for an infant baptism the parents/godparents do this on the behalf of the child. So I assume that an Adult would have to do that for themselves. Which leads to the question: Did your Grandmother want to be baptized?

 

[v1gilbert]

My Grandmother hadn’t left the house since the 1970’s to go to Church or even to my Grandfather’s funeral. There is no connection to any Church. Let alone the Catholic Church. My Mother is not Catholic either. But again Baptism is not exclusive to those in the Roman Catholic Church it is considered a valid Sacrament in all Protestant and Orthodox Churches as well as long as they use the Trinitarian formula.

Since my Grandmother’s intentions are about that of an infant (i.e. she doesn’t have competency) I would assume that my Mother’s intentions would suffice such as when infants are Baptized.

Do people have their mentally handicapped children Baptized? Same situation here just that she is an elderly woman.

 

[Mommyof02green]

My Grandmother hadn’t left the house since the 1970’s to go to Church or even to my Grandfather’s funeral. There is no connection to any Church. Let alone the Catholic Church. My Mother is not Catholic either. But again Baptism is not exclusive to those in the Roman Catholic Church it is considered a valid Sacrament in all Protestant and Orthodox Churches as well as long as they use the Trinitarian formula.

I wasn’t trying to suggest that Baptism is exclusive to Catholic’s only. I was just trying to ask some questions based on what I have read in the CCC.

In the CCC it states that lay people (i.e. your mother) can only do give baptisms if it is necessary. Your Grandmother state and not leaving the house since the 1970 does NOT mean that it was impossible to have a clergy member do it.

I’ve known clergy members of all religious backgrounds that have gone to hospitals, homes etc to do baptisms. I guess I’m questioning way wasn’t a clergy member consulted BEFORE your mother did this? (either from your church or your mother’s church)

Since my Grandmother’s intentions are about that of an infant (i.e. she doesn’t have competency) I would assume that my Mother’s intentions would suffice such as when infants are Baptized.
Do people have their mentally handicapped children Baptized? Same situation here just that she is an elderly woman.

Yes, parents have their mentally handicapped children baptized. Yes, parents have their ill and dieing children baptized. However, parents also consult a clergy member BEFORE baptism, they don’t just take a pond themselves to do it. (The only excepting to that would be the child is going to die in hours/minutes and a clergy member cannot get there in time.)

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

My Grandmother hadn’t left the house since the 1970’s to go to Church or even to my Grandfather’s funeral. There is no connection to any Church. Let alone the Catholic Church. My Mother is not Catholic either. But again Baptism is not exclusive to those in the Roman Catholic Church it is considered a valid Sacrament in all Protestant and Orthodox Churches as well as long as they use the Trinitarian formula.

Since my Grandmother’s intentions are about that of an infant (i.e. she doesn’t have competency) I would assume that my Mother’s intentions would suffice such as when infants are Baptized.

Do people have their mentally handicapped children Baptized? Same situation here just that she is an elderly woman.

Can. 865~1 To be admitted to baptism, an adult must have manifested the intention to
receive baptism, must be adequately instructed in the truths of the faith and in the duties
of a christian, and tested in the christian life over the course of the catechumenate. The
person must moreover be urged to have sorrow for personal sins.

~2 An adult in danger of death may be baptised if, with some knowledge of the principal
truths of the faith, he or she has in some manner manifested the intention to receive
baptism and promises to observe the requirements of the christian religion.

Unless your Grandmother had been in an infantile state all her life, no that would not fly.