Question of Catholic prayers

[slh3016]

My husband and I are contemplating Catholicism in search of the fullness of truth. One thing, however, that is “different” to us (not bad, just different) is the way we see Catholics around us praying (i.e., scripted prayers, sign of the cross, etc.)

Are these things *required * for a Catholic to do or can prayers be less “formal” and less scripted?

 

[christofirst]

The short answer is both. Our common liturgical prayer is scripted, so to speak, and draws heavily on Sacred Scripture and our 2,000+ year history. Our private prayer can also draw on our long tradition, or it can be quite spontaneous. Your private prayers and devotions are not bound by formalities, but as you become more familiar with these age-old prayers, you might, as many of us do, find them to be a source of great comfort and inspiration.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

No. (Edit: this “no” is for the OP, not for christofirst’s post with which I agree. )

Reciting memorized prayers is what one author calls “Talking at God” (reference to the book is below)

It has its use, but does not get to where you want. You want to get past 1) talking at God (memorized prayer), through 2) talking to God (made-up prayer), and 3) listening to God (contemplative/silent prayer).

See the CCC 2700-2724 for the three “expressions of prayer,” vocal, meditative, and contemplative. Note that it says we should go beyond vocal and meditative, and into contemplative prayer.

A couple excerpts:

2704 Because it is external and so thoroughly human, vocal prayer is the form of prayer most readily accessible to groups. Even interior prayer, however, cannot neglect vocal prayer. Prayer is internalized to the extent that we become aware of him “to whom we speak;” Thus vocal prayer becomes an initial form of contemplative prayer.

2708 Meditation engages thought, imagination, emotion, and desire. This mobilization of faculties is necessary in order to deepen our convictions of faith, prompt the conversion of our heart, and strengthen our will to follow Christ. Christian prayer tries above all to meditate on the mysteries of Christ, as in lectio divina or the rosary. This form of prayerful reflection is of great value, but Christian prayer should go further: to the knowledge of the love of the Lord Jesus, to union with him.

2718 **Contemplative prayer is a union with the prayer of Christ **insofar as it makes us participate in his mystery. The mystery of Christ is celebrated by the Church in the Eucharist, and the Holy Spirit makes it come alive in contemplative prayer so that our charity will manifest it in our acts.

2709 What is contemplative prayer? St. Teresa answers: "Contemplative prayer [oracion mental] in my opinion is nothing else than a close sharing between friends; it means taking time frequently to be alone with him who we know loves us."6 Contemplative prayer seeks him "whom my soul loves."7 It is Jesus, and in him, the Father. We seek him, because to desire him is always the beginning of love, and we seek him in that pure faith which causes us to be born of him and to live in him. In this inner prayer we can still meditate, but our attention is fixed on the Lord himself.

Fearful and underinformed Catholics will tell you “contemplative prayer is not for everyone” but they are at odds with Church teachings. It’s just that contemplative prayer forms (such as Lectio Divina which contains a “contemplatio” segment) have been in the monasteries for centuries and are just now peeking out since the Information Age can’t keep them hidden from the Bad Guys and stuff.

These same Catholics will insist that you pray the Rosary incessantly because “our Lady has told us that God wishes that,” when in fact that is not required Church teaching at all, but from an apparition which is not binding on Catholics.

So note that “acting Catholic” means a different thing depending on whether you go by the Catechism, or by the example of certain other Catholics. In some cases they align; in others they do not. You will get both types here, and probably both on this thread and some telling me off about writing this. “Oh you are telling a person bad things about our beloved Mother’s prayer” to which I say in advance, “no I am telling the truth about what the Church teaches, to offer counterpoint to your version.”

Or they will tell me that if I don’t love the Rosary, that’s about as bad as not loving Jesus OR his mother and how can I call myself “Catholic” anyway? That is my absolute favorite attack because True Catholic Teaching (as opposed to their ego speaking through their mouth) is that I could renounce my faith or be excommunicated, and I’m still officially “Catholic,” once having been baptized into the Church.

Sorry if I seem negative, but I’m trying to talk you out of thinking that just because all the “cool kids” say they are doing it, doesn’t make them “more Catholic” than you. It makes them exactly as much Catholic as you, whether they like being in the same group or not. This hurt me for years because I always felt “less Catholic” because of my disinterest in the Rosary, until I finally asked my pastor and he said it was an optional devotion. We have many devotions so we don’t have to all use the same. And I was a cradle Catholic, and always involved in parish events and leadership.

Here’s the book on Catholic prayer I recommend above any others I’ve seen, for the situation you’re describing. It was written by a Jesuit, and is being used at some seminaries for introductory prayer class. It takes you through all types of Catholic prayer, and even what to do when it seems like you’re “not doing it right.” (Hint: you’re never “not doing it right.”)


Mark Thibodeaux S.J. (Author)

 

[slh3016]

No…

Or they will tell me that if I don’t love the Rosary, that’s about as bad as not loving Jesus OR his mother and how can I call myself “Catholic” anyway? That is my absolute favorite attack because True Catholic Teaching (as opposed to their ego speaking through their mouth) is that I could renounce my faith or be excommunicated, and I’m still officially “Catholic,” once having been baptized into the Church.

Sorry if I seem negative, but I’m trying to talk you out of thinking that just because all the “cool kids” say they are doing it, doesn’t make them “more Catholic” than you. It makes them exactly as much Catholic as you, whether they like being in the same group or not. This hurt me for years because I always felt “less Catholic” because of my disinterest in the Rosary, until I finally asked my pastor and he said it was an optional devotion. We have many devotions so we don’t have to all use the same. And I was a cradle Catholic, and always involved in parish events and leadership.

Here’s the book on Catholic prayer I recommend above any others I’ve seen, for the situation you’re describing. It was written by a Jesuit, and is being used at some seminaries for introductory prayer class. It takes you through all types of Catholic prayer, and even what to do when it seems like you’re “not doing it right.” (Hint: you’re never “not doing it right.”)


Mark Thibodeaux S.J. (Author)

Thank you, thank you, thank you! This is exactly what I was asking. My husband’s personality is very minimalist (not that he only wants to do the minimum) but he is rather put off by seemingly complicated “showy” expressions of faith, although he has a deep, abiding faith. I just know that if he is ever to “drink the water” of the Catholic Church, I am not sure he’d EVER be one to publicly or privately recite scripted prayers or devotions. I would imagine that his prayer life would stay much the same as it is now, which “I” believe is already at a deep level in many ways. I totally “get” that as he (we) understand more of the faith, these may be avenues we wish to pursue (rosary, etc.) but I am so afraid that if he is told or feels that these things are required of him as he is just coming to terms with conversion, he may balk and head back the other way

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Thank you, thank you, thank you! This is exactly what I was asking. My husband’s personality is very minimalist (not that he only wants to do the minimum) but he is rather put off by seemingly complicated “showy” expressions of faith, although he has a deep, abiding faith. I just know that if he is ever to “drink the water” of the Catholic Church, I am not sure he’d EVER be one to publicly or privately recite scripted prayers or devotions. I would imagine that his prayer life would stay much the same as it is now, which “I” believe is already at a deep level in many ways. I totally “get” that as he (we) understand more of the faith, these may be avenues we wish to pursue (rosary, etc.) but I am so afraid that if he is told or feels that these things are required of him as he is just coming to terms with conversion, he may balk and head back the other way

I’m so glad it helped. Somehow I felt your real issues, right through your question. Been there and done that and wore out many t-shirts for decades, not doing it any more!

Oh and by the way I’ve sampled a lot of different kinds of water that get thrown around, and I suggest you just trust your nose and you’ll be fine.

Ahhh … it has a bouquet of the sweetest of peace … :heaven:

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Oh yeah, and as you are listening to the razzle-dazzle you will always encounter during your search for TRVTH, I think your husband and St. Paul may have some commonality in their approach.

When they try to baffle with bull, keep in mind:

1 Cor 1
10 I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose. 11 For it has been reported to me about you, my brothers, by Chloe’s people, that there are rivalries among you. 12 I mean that each of you is saying, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I give thanks [to God] that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one can say you were baptized in my name. 16 (I baptized the household of Stephanas also; beyond that I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with the wisdom of human eloquence, so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its meaning.

18 The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the learning of the learned I will set aside.”

20 Where is the wise one? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world did not come to know God through wisdom, it was the will of God through the foolishness of the proclamation to save those who have faith. 22** For Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, Jews and Greeks alike, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.**

26 Consider your own calling, brothers. Not many of you were wise by human standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 Rather, God chose the foolish of the world to shame the wise, and God chose the weak of the world to shame the strong, 28 and God chose the lowly and despised of the world, those who count for nothing, to reduce to nothing those who are something, 29 so that no human being might boast before God. 30 It is due to him that you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God, as well as righteousness, sanctification, and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Whoever boasts, should boast in the Lord.”​

Question what “seems right” to people, avail yourself of the “full” resources of the Church and don’t be limited by what may be an incomplete or even false teaching, and use that prayer book and get into some really good prayer modes, and you will find riches beyond measure right here inside the Church with apostolic succession clear back to Peter “laying hands on” to each bishop and then to confirmation recipients. Riches even beyond the Bible which was put on scrolls by early founders of the Church so that others could take it and measure us by it via God’s diversity plan (Reformation) and it became stronger. There are more riches inside the Church than you can devote your lifetime absorbing. The showy surface stuff can be very helpful for some of us and in some situations, or they can distract us from the real heart of the matter.

 

[JRKH]

My husband and I are contemplating Catholicism in search of the fullness of truth. One thing, however, that is “different” to us (not bad, just different) is the way we see Catholics around us praying (i.e., scripted prayers, sign of the cross, etc.)

Are these things *required * for a Catholic to do or can prayers be less “formal” and less scripted?

Great answers already - let me just add that every “scripted” prayer was once less formal and less scripted. I mean - someone had to “make it up” as it were.

Such prayers can be very useful to many people at various times in one’s life. Other times we just want to “pour out our hearts” to God in spontaneous prayer.

Peace
James

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Great answers already - let me just add that every “scripted” prayer was once less formal and less scripted. I mean - someone had to “make it up” as it were.

Sounds like Chopin. He ad-libbed almost all the time. Much of what we have of his works, were written by his students after watching him make stuff up.

:harp:

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

You know what my favorite part of Rosaries are?

It seems I spend most of my time avoiding them or explaining why.

But when I do them, especially in times of stress like at funerals, it gives a formal ritual that we can all go through together as our thoughts wander back and forth and around from the prayers to our world. We can meditate on mysteries or just plain feel loss and grief, all together in fellowship with voices as one, in prayer. This gives me a 20 minute mental and emotional retreat from having to make any decisions or come to any conclusions, except to follow along (mindlessly or mindfully either way) as the leaders go through the decades.



Kind of a prayer form of a :grouphug: of the heart.

Kind of like someone is grieving and even while they speak, the sorrow is carried as a subtle audio signal added to the more obvious verbalizing, through more noticeable expressions. Kind of like a spiritual sneeze and everybody, by continuing to pray with you as they experience the grief by your side, says a silent and knowing:

 

[slh3016]

Great answers already - let me just add that every “scripted” prayer was once less formal and less scripted. I mean - someone had to “make it up” as it were.

Such prayers can be very useful to many people at various times in one’s life. Other times we just want to “pour out our hearts” to God in spontaneous prayer.

Peace
James

Yes, I like pouring out my heart Sometimes it’s even hard to articulate but I know that God knows the depths of my heart and that He hears what my heart cries for, even if my lips cannot even put it into words.

We went to dinner with our Catholic neighbors recently and our eyes got a little wide when he recited an obviously rote Catholic prayer for grace followed by the fingers to the lips (it was cute even watching their 3-year-old do that ). Of course, we and our children had NO idea. It was a rather funny moment…lol.

It’s those little things, though, that have my husband worried. He doesn’t want to convert to a system but to have deeper relationship, and, right now, those rote prayers do not equal the relationship he is seeking. Maybe in time they will, though

 

[JRKH]

Yes, I like pouring out my heart Sometimes it’s even hard to articulate but I know that God knows the depths of my heart and that He hears what my heart cries for, even if my lips cannot even put it into words.

We went to dinner with our Catholic neighbors recently and our eyes got a little wide when he recited an obviously rote Catholic prayer for grace followed by the fingers to the lips (it was cute even watching their 3-year-old do that ). Of course, we and our children had NO idea. It was a rather funny moment…lol.

It’s those little things, though, that have my husband worried. He doesn’t want to convert to a system but to have deeper relationship, and, right now, those rote prayers do not equal the relationship he is seeking. Maybe in time they will, though

Just do not let what you see on the surface fool you into thinking that is all there is.

By the way - just for my own curiosity - what do you mean by the term “rote prayer”.
The term “rote” really doesn’t apply to a prayer - but more to a manner - an action.
That’s why I’m curious about the meaning you intended to convey above.

Peace
James

 

[Catholic1954]

My husband and I are contemplating Catholicism in search of the fullness of truth. One thing, however, that is “different” to us (not bad, just different) is the way we see Catholics around us praying (i.e., scripted prayers, sign of the cross, etc.)

Are these things *required * for a Catholic to do or can prayers be less “formal” and less scripted?

You can be a Catholic, in good standing with the Church, and NEVER say one single, Hail Mary, Our Father, Glory Be or any other of our formal prayers. I must warn you, however, that the more you learn of their history and meaning the less weird they will seem to you; some of them express such deep feelings for the love of God that you may not want to stop praying them! The same applies to devotion to Mary, but that will be another topic. Welcome Home!

 

[slh3016]

Just do not let what you see on the surface fool you into thinking that is all there is.

By the way - just for my own curiosity - what do you mean by the term “rote prayer”.
The term “rote” really doesn’t apply to a prayer - but more to a manner - an action.
That’s why I’m curious about the meaning you intended to convey above.

Peace
James

I was using the word “rote” as an adjective to describe a prayer that has been learned by repetition and memorization (ie, rote) and that CAN be said by someone effortlessly and mindlessly without any genuineness of heart or intent.

 

[pianistclare]

The Our Father is s rote prayer. Scripted by Jesus Himself. I think it’s probably ok.
Showy things don’t appear showy when everyone is doing them. They appear as a community of like prayer. The sing of the cross is an affirmation of the Trinity. “In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” is what we pray while doing it. It’s not simply a gesture. It’s the preface to silent or oral prayer. We literally put on the cross.
**You have wonderful answers here from the others. Welcome home. **
One has to consider that many people say that they don’t’ know “how” to pray, so these prayers that we learn as children help them quite a bit. Some are too humbled to think they can properly speak to God. As children we learn the ABC’s in order to read. As Catholics, we learn prayers that are beautiful, in order to be able to form our own, heartfelt prayers. These are the tools to deeper spirituality.
Thanks for sharing! And again, a most hearty welcome, and a blessed Christmas season.

 

[JRKH]

The Our Father is s rote prayer. Scripted by Jesus Himself. I think it’s probably ok.
Showy things don’t appear showy when everyone is doing them. They appear as a community of like prayer. The sing of the cross is an affirmation of the Trinity. “In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” is what we pray while doing it. It’s not simply a gesture. It’s the preface to silent or oral prayer. We literally put on the cross.
**You have wonderful answers here from the others. Welcome home. **
One has to consider that many people say that they don’t’ know “how” to pray, so these prayers that we learn as children help them quite a bit. Some are too humbled to think they can properly speak to God. As children we learn the ABC’s in order to read. As Catholics, we learn prayers that are beautiful, in order to be able to form our own, heartfelt prayers. These are the tools to deeper spirituality.
Thanks for sharing! And again, a most hearty welcome, and a blessed Christmas season.

Great Reply.

I was using the word “rote” as an adjective to describe a prayer that has been learned by repetition and memorization (ie, rote) and that CAN be said by someone effortlessly and mindlessly without any genuineness of heart or intent.

Thanks for clarifying.
That leads me to another question then…
Why should your “eyes widen” at the idea of the man using a “standard” prayer instead of making one up? Why did you find this a “funny moment”?
Again - I’m just curious…

(By the way - I’ve never head of the " fingers to the lips" as part of meal time prayer - we never did that in my family).

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

You can be a Catholic, in good standing with the Church, and NEVER say one single, Hail Mary, Our Father, Glory Be or any other of our formal prayers. I must warn you, however, that the more you learn of their history and meaning the less weird they will seem to you; some of them express such deep feelings for the love of God that you may not want to stop praying them! The same applies to devotion to Mary, but that will be another topic. Welcome Home!

Actually this is not precisely true. Since the Our Father is said at every mass, and participation in the mass is obligatory for a Catholic in good standing - you pretty much ARE going to have to say the Our Father…

Just sayin…

Peace
James

 

[pianistclare]

Great Reply.

Thanks for clarifying.
That leads me to another question then…
Why should your “eyes widen” at the idea of the man using a “standard” prayer instead of making one up? Why did you find this a “funny moment”?
Again - I’m just curious…

(By the way - I’ve never head of the " fingers to the lips" as part of meal time prayer - we never did that in my family).

Peace
James

Most likely they are referring to the sign of the cross followed by the fingers to the mouth. In many cultures, when praying, at the end, they kiss the crucifix. In Mexico, and other countries, this habit extends to ANY sign of the cross. The children mimic what they see their parents do, even if they do not have a crucifix in their hand. My priest used to call them the “thumb kissers”.
It’s a cultural thing, not a “teaching of the Church” thing. This is one of those “small t” traditions in some countries.
Peace.

Also, the eyes wide thing made me chuckle. I saw myself in it. I always thought it was odd that people would bow their heads when a leader says “Let us pray”… I can pray looking up down, or around. I never felt that bowing my head made my prayers more effective or sincere. That’s why I like conversing with others of different faith traditions. We all learn from each other. Postures change and vary from culture to culture. God hears all. He is so good.

 

[slh3016]

That leads me to another question then…
Why should your “eyes widen” at the idea of the man using a “standard” prayer instead of making one up? Why did you find this a “funny moment”?
Again - I’m just curious…

(By the way - I’ve never head of the " fingers to the lips" as part of meal time prayer - we never did that in my family).

Peace
James

Our eyes didn’t widen because we were offended. It was just that, in our families, we’d never been taught a memorized prayer for saying grace (and our children had certainly never experienced it). It was just very new and different for us, as are most things Catholic

The three year old was the funny part because she obviously knew every word by heart and when she sealed it with kissing her fingers, it was precious

I just googled the kissing the fingers and found this:
“…some people end the Sign by crossing the thumb over the index finger to make a cross, and then kissing the thumb as a way of “kissing the Cross.””

 

[Magdalen2013]

My husband and I are contemplating Catholicism in search of the fullness of truth. One thing, however, that is “different” to us (not bad, just different) is the way we see Catholics around us praying (i.e., scripted prayers, sign of the cross, etc.)

Are these things *required * for a Catholic to do or can prayers be less “formal” and less scripted?

In private prayer, you can do whatever you want. In public prayer, which is what the Mass is…you follow the rubrics of the Mass. There’s usually a card in the pew with the missal/hymnal that tells you what to do and say and when.

If you do become Catholic, you will be expected to make the sign of the cross during some parts of the Mass, as well as pray the Lord’s Prayer, and you will be expected to sign yourself with Holy Water as you enter and leave the church.

I was received into the Church at the Easter Vigil this year, and I love the scripted prayers, and am learning to pray the Liturgy of the Hours. Your husband might find Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament more his speed, as it can be purely contemplative and requires only that you be there with the Lord. I found it very helpful in developing my internal prayer life.

As for saying Grace before meals, some folks find it easier to follow a script, others don’t. I think cultivating an attitude of gratitude is good, no script necessary.

In the last year, I found that as I grew more comfortable with the scripted prayers my internal dialog with God improved immensely. May your journey likewise thrive.

 

[slh3016]

If you do become Catholic, you will be expected to make the sign of the cross during some parts of the Mass, as well as pray the Lord’s Prayer, and you will be expected to sign yourself with Holy Water as you enter and leave the church.

We walked into Mass last Sunday (my second, DH’s first) and were warmly greeted and even asked if we’d like to take the gifts forward My husband stumbled for an answer but it was painfully obvious that we were out of our element, especially when we walked right by the holy water to take a seat in the next to back row. Even during the service, we struggled to understand the Missal and order of things. DH even got up to go the restroom right before the consecration of the Eucharist and I jerked him back to his seat. He just had no idea

I could tell that he was feeling a little antsy with some things he was observing but was quite surprised that he actually had a better attitude after we left Mass than I thought he would have

Thanks, everyone, for all the insight!