Question of fate?

[tonyrey]

So you have to either agree on the second scenario or accept that the creature, who was supposed to turn into devil, could stay good until eternity. This is however contradictory with the assumption of God’s omniscience.

I don’t know how you reach that conclusion but you are certainly implying that God cannot share His power with us. In other words you are assuming God is not omnipotent - and if God is not omnipotent He cannot be omniscient!

The real basis of your argument is that free will does not exist, i.e. every thought and every action has a physical cause. How on earth could you justify that opinion? If you can’t choose what to think there is no guarantee that any of your thoughts are worth considering!

 

[Bahman]

God is outside of time and sees all of creation at once. Every moment since the creation of the world and its end is present to him “now”. Thus, he is infinitely knowledgable of the past, present and future.

I am aware of this definition of God. This definition however is not anomaly free since a good God cannot create an evil being as I stated. I mean God knows the fate of a creation as you stated since it knows the future. The main question is then why God create a being knowing that its final destiny is evil?

 

[fhansen]

I had a few discussions with other friends on different threads about good, evil, creation and God and I was not satisfied with their answers. I think it is crucial to sped sometimes to discuss the issue in different thread. The main question is:

When does God knows the fate of a creation (a creature for example to simplify the problem)?

There are three possible options available here, namely before creation, right away after creation and cannot know at all. We assume that God is omnipotent, omniscience and perfectly good.

By omnipotence I mean God is able to do anything which is logically possible.

I use two definition for omniscience, one which is strong meaning that God knows everything and the other which is weak which means that God is only aware of current state of being.

Good is clear.

Lets start with, God knows the fate of creature before creation (this is strong omniscience): This unfortunately leads to an paradox. The following argument explain the argument:

1. God know the fate of an creature.
2. God create a creature.
3. The creature turns into devil.
4. God created a devil (since it knew its final destiny).

Creation of a creature with devil destiny is against the last God’s attribute, which state that God is perfectly good, so it can neither do evil nor create devil to do evil.

God knows the fate of creature after creation:

This first reduce omniscience of God. It is also very ironic statement since it reduces God to an entity without plan and knowledge about its creation. This remind me a picture that shows God throwing a dice when it creates something. We are not free of any anomaly in this case either.

1. The creature with the eventual evil/good fate did not have any control on its creation.
2. An creature with the eventual evil/good fate has not any control on its fate (since its fate only depends on the number that dice shows which was out of God’s control either)
3. Evil/good creature get punishment/reward for what they have no control on it since their fate is already defined.

This is again against the concept of good God since a good God never punish a devil that its fate was out of its control.

God does not know the fate a creation at all:

This is weak omniscience but anomaly free. It also means that the concept of fate is an delusion.

This paragraph from the CCC should be relevant:

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.

 

[Bahman]

I don’t know how you reach that conclusion but you are certainly implying that God cannot share His power with us. In other words you are assuming God is not omnipotent - and if God is not omnipotent He cannot be omniscient!

I don’t know my friend. I tried to be very specific and to my understanding there are no other possibilities than what I defined in starting of this thread (three possibilities). You can pick up one and we start from there. I didn’t assume that God does not have omnipotent. I just assume three different types of omniscience.

The real basis of your argument is that free will does not exist, i.e. every thought and every action has a physical cause. How on earth could you justify that opinion? If you can’t choose what to think there is no guarantee that any of your thoughts are worth considering!

I neither said that free will does not exist nor said that every action has a physical cause.

 

[Bahman]

This paragraph from the CCC should be relevant:

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.

I am sorry but I didn’t get what your post has to do with my discussion. Do you mean that we are blind and any logical argument we make about God/creation is intrinsically false since we don’t have access to the truth.

 

[Porknpie]

I am aware of this definition of God. This definition however is not anomaly free since a good God cannot create an evil being as I stated.

Everything in God’s creation is good. Since he IS good he can only create good. God does not create anything evil. He does give us free will and through our free will we can make choices that do not reflect the goodness of God, his all-loving nature and his commandments as revealed through revelation.

I like the view of St Aquinas, that evil is a privation or the absence of good. From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

A complete account may be gathered from the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas, by whom the principles of St. Augustine are systematized, and to some extent supplemented. Evil, according to St. Thomas, is a privation, or the absence of some good which belongs properly to the nature of the creature. (I,Q. xiv, a. 10; Q. xlix, a. 3; Contra Gentiles, III, ix, x). There is therefore no “summum malum”, or positive source of evil, corresponding to the “summum bonum”, which is God (I, Q. xlix, a. 3; C. G., III, 15; De Malo, I, 1); evil being not “ens reale” but only “ens rationis”–i.e. it exists not as an objective fact, but as a subjective conception; things are evil not in themselves, but by reason of their relation to other things, or persons. All realities (entia) are in themselves good; they produce bad results only incidentally; and consequently the ultimate cause of evil if fundamentally good, as well as the objects in which evil is found (I, Q. xlix; cf. I, Q. v, 3; De Malo, I, 3). Thus the Manichaean dualism has no foundation in reason.

The main question is then why God create a being knowing that its final destiny is evil?

The encyclopedia again references St. Thomas as he asked and answered the same question. A little further down the page … comments that God himself has to retain his free will. Think of it… if we as his creation have free will, we reflect that which is seen to a greater extent in the creator.

First, it is asked why God, foreseeing that his creatures would use the gift of free will for their own injury, did not either abstain from creating them, or in some way safeguard their free will from misuse, or else deny them the gift altogether? St. Thomas replies (C. G., II, xxviii) that God cannot change His mind, since the Divine will is free from the defect of weakness or mutability. Such mutability would, it should be remarked, be a defect in the Divine nature (and therefore impossible), because if God’s purpose were made dependent on the foreseen free act of any creature, God would thereby sacrifice His own freedom, and would submit Himself to His creatures, thus abdicating His essential supremacy–a thing which is, of course, utterly inconceivable.

 

[fhansen]

I am sorry but I didn’t get what your post has to do with my discussion. Do you mean that we are blind and any logical argument we make about God/creation is intrinsically false since we don’t have access to the truth.

It means that God knows our free choices before He created and yet He deemed that our ability to choose-our free will-was a good in itself, and a good of such great value to Him that it was still worth it to create even if it meant that some would choose evil. The catholic faith teaches that God made the universe in a “state of journeying” to perfection, the ultimate goal being a creation that freely chooses the Good, alone, having turned fully from evil and coming to love Him, goodness and love personified, with their whole heart, soul, mind and strength and their neighbor as themselves.

 

[Bahman]

The encyclopedia again references St. Thomas as he asked and answered the same question. A little further down the page … comments that God himself has to retain his free will. Think of it… if we as his creation have free will, we reflect that which is seen to a greater extent in the creator.

First, it is asked why God, foreseeing that his creatures would use the gift of free will for their own injury, did not either abstain from creating them, or in some way safeguard their free will from misuse, or else deny them the gift altogether? St. Thomas replies (C. G., II, xxviii) that God cannot change His mind, since the Divine will is free from the defect of weakness or mutability. Such mutability would, it should be remarked, be a defect in the Divine nature (and therefore impossible), because if God’s purpose were made dependent on the foreseen free act of any creature, God would thereby sacrifice His own freedom, and would submit Himself to His creatures, thus abdicating His essential supremacy–a thing which is, of course, utterly inconceivable.

This statement if we agree upon it, means that God creation of being with ultimate destiny devil was unavoidable. This put two/more attributes of God against each other leading to an anomaly, namely creation of devil from a perfect good being. I don’t know to what extend is correct that we assign a set of attributes to God and then deduce something from it. I mean how we could be sure that reductionism does not lead to any anomaly when we are dealing with a being like God even ourselves. Anyhow this means that creation of devil was unavoidable. Now another question arises that why God should punish devil knowing the fact that its creation was unavoidable? I mean we can agree that

1. The creation of devil was unavoidable.
2. A good being like God never dose bad thing.
3. Punishing a devil that its final destiny was unavoidable (knowable) is bad.
4. God does not punish devil.

 

[Bahman]

It means that God knows our free choices before He created and yet He deemed that our ability to choose-our free will-was a good in itself, and a good of such great value to Him that it was still worth it to create even if it meant that some would choose evil. The catholic faith teaches that God made the universe in a “state of journeying” to perfection, the ultimate goal being a creation that freely chooses the Good, alone, having turned fully from evil and coming to love Him, goodness and love personified, with their whole heart, soul, mind and strength and their neighbor as themselves.

But it promised that devils will be set in fire: biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=fire&version1=NRSVCE&searchtype=all&spanbegin=47&spanend=50

 

[anruari]

The way I understand the “Eternal Punishment” is this:

All created creatures are essentially created by the Good who is God. They are therefore created good, and for good.
They / we, are given the gift of Free Will by which we can choose to cooperate with Good, with God, or we can choose not to.

In rejecting Good, we place ourselves outside His Love. In doing so in a permanent manner we not only reject His Love on a temporary bases but do so for all eternity.

“Hell” is that place / State where Gods Love and Presence has been rejected completely. For an imortal creature, like an Angel or our Soul, if we reject God’s Love; if we reject God, then it is a logical consequence of Free Will that He must permit us to completely leave the effect of His Presence.
To do this, however, is a massive torture on the Soul as it is created Good, by Good, and For Good. to exist having withdrawn from all that is good is a perminant torture. The descriptions in Scripture describe this state as like being in an unquenchable fire - one that tortures but does no burn up the soul.

On the other hand, if the Soul accepts God’s Love and Forgivness, in order to enter completely into His Presence, all that is in us which is not Pure Good must be burned away. This is described as a “Refiners Fire” which burns up all the Dirt, Grass, Straw, and Wood; leaving only the pure Metal of our Soul. This process, which is part of Judgement for those who accept thier Salvation, is a far hotter, more intense Fire: but it is not eternal. It is a loving process through which the soul will pass: into His eternal Love and Goodness.

So a creature of “Pure Evil” does not exist. Satan is in fact an Archangel. His name was “Lucifer”: i.e. “The Angel of Light”. He, due to the sin of Pride, refused to Serve God’s Plan, or to accept that God could become a Man, where Man is a lesser creature than an angel.
Other angles followed him.

 

[Bahman]

So a creature of “Pure Evil” does not exist. Satan is in fact an Archangel. His name was “Lucifer”: i.e. “The Angel of Light”. He, due to the sin of Pride, refused to Serve God’s Plan, or to accept that God could become a Man, where Man is a lesser creature than an angel.
Other angles followed him.

I am sorry but I don’t if I understand how a being (human) could be lesser than angel at the same time could become God, higher than angel? How possibly creatures of God could look differently in the eyes of God? To me all creatures looks similarly in eyes of God, following different journeys to find, feel and understand their essences which lead to a better understanding God wishes and plan as well. To me we could not comprehend God’s plan unless we prepare ourselves to love and understand each other since there is a certain quality in each essence which is intrinsically unknowable unless it is shared. Otherwise one has to experience all state of minds/being which is very hard task if not impossible.

 

[tonyrey]

So you have to either agree on the second scenario or accept that the creature, who was supposed to turn into devil, could stay good until eternity. This is however contradictory with the assumption of God’s omniscience.

“the creature, who was supposed to turn into devil” is vague. What precisely does it mean? Predestination is incompatible with free will.

 

[fhansen]

But it promised that devils will be set in fire: biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=fire&version1=NRSVCE&searchtype=all&spanbegin=47&spanend=50

Yes, not all will choose wisely

 

[Bahman]

“the creature, who was supposed to turn into devil” is vague. What precisely does it mean? Predestination is incompatible with free will.

I have a question for you:

Does God know whether a creature turn to devil or not?

If yes then the creature does exactly as God knows. This means that creature for example does an evil act at specific location and time, turning into devil after ward, like rebelling against God in case of Satan. This means that creature cannot possibly does anything else at that specific moment and location since otherwise it contradict omniscience of God.

 

[fhansen]

I have a question for you:

Does God know whether a creature turn to devil or not?

If yes then the creature does exactly as God knows. This means that creature for example does an evil act at specific location and time, turning into devil after ward, like rebelling against God in case of Satan. This means that creature cannot possibly does anything else at that specific moment and location since otherwise it contradict omniscience of God.

No-God’s omniscience just means He can’t help but know the free choices of everyone before they take place. And there is no “before” for Him, BTW.

 

[Bahman]

No-God’s omniscience just means He can’t help but know the free choices of everyone before they take place. And there is no “before” for Him, BTW.

I do have two questions from you?

1. Do you mean that free choice is an illusion from our reference of view since God already knows all our actions/choices/decisions? I mean free will is either an intrinsically unpredictable quality or not. If it is predictable from God point of view then it is not free choice at all since it loses its intrinsic essence (unpredictability). You could say that free choice is a quality which is only unpredictable from our point of view then the problem of unpredictability is reduced to the problem unknowability from our point of view. This means that the concept of free choice as an illusion.
2. What is the point of creation of universe if God knows final destiny of all being? I mean, we are living in the state of suffering had to wait for our final destiny that God knows! Why we should suffer for our final destiny that is known and possibly could be damned!?

 

[fhansen]

I do have two questions from you?

1. Do you mean that free choice is an illusion from our reference of view since God already knows all our actions/choices/decisions? I mean free will is either an intrinsically unpredictable quality or not. If it is predictable from God point of view then it is not free choice at all since it loses its intrinsic essence (unpredictability). You could say that free choice is a quality which is only unpredictable from our point of view then the problem of unpredictability is reduced to the problem unknowability from our point of view. This means that the concept of free choice as an illusion.
2. What is the point of creation of universe if God knows final destiny of all being? I mean, we are living in the state of suffering had to wait for our final destiny that God knows! Why we should suffer for our final destiny that is known and possibly could be damned!?

God’s perspective is huge, eternal-and it matters not to us that He foreknows the outcome-the beginning from the end-because from our own point of reference-from our perspective- we can and do make choices without those choices being pre-determined-and that’s all that’s needed in order for us to be morally responsible for those choices. Knowing our choices beforehand is not the same as determining those choices for us. By not interfering with our choices-by giving us the freedom to oppose even His own will-human free will is made possible.

 

[tonyrey]

I have a question for you:

Does God know whether a creature turn to devil or not?

If yes then the creature does exactly as God knows. This means that creature for example does an evil act at specific location and time, turning into devil after ward, like rebelling against God in case of Satan. This means that creature cannot possibly does anything else at that specific moment and location since otherwise it contradict omniscience of God.

You are still assuming that knowledge implies causation. How would you prove that?

 

[Bahman]

God’s perspective is huge, eternal-and it matters not to us that He foreknows the outcome-the beginning from the end-because from our own point of reference-from our perspective- we can and do make choices without those choices being pre-determined-and that’s all that’s needed in order for us to be morally responsible for those choices. Knowing our choices beforehand is not the same as determining those choices for us. By not interfering with our choices-by giving us the freedom to oppose even His own will-human free will is made possible.

First you didn’t answer my second question " Why we should suffer for our final destiny that is known and possibly could be damned!?"

Second, how we could make any relationship with such a God? I mean before, now and after have a clear meaning for us as without that everything would be static from our point of view, there would be not any action, neither any changes. The main question is then how God who is in state of timeless could possibly observe any changes in the creation and possibly interact with us. I mean I am here now and will be at other place sometimes later. You could easily observe me and have a understanding from my situation. But God is the sate of timeless, no before, no after… how it could possibly distinguish between those two cases since one of them occurs after another one.

 

[Bahman]

You are still assuming that knowledge implies causation. How would you prove that?

No, I am saying that God omniscience in the way that you define it causes a paradox. You tell me if whether God knew the exact time and location at which Satan rebel against time? I know that your answer to this question is yes. Satan reaches to that specific location and has to make a decision about rebelling against God. He has two choices:

1. Satan decide to rebel against God (no inconstancy with omniscience of God).
2. Satan decide to does not rebel against God. My question from you is that whether this choice was feasible option at all. You answer is no since it oppose omniscience of God. Now remove the second choice and go back ward through my statement to see where would you reach. Satan has only one feasible option: to rebel against God.

Apply this example to every action takes places in our life and see what would you conclude: all our actions are known by God and we have no feasible option to do otherwise since otherwise it contradict God omniscience.