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byeveryword
Guest
Would you please explain to me the definition of a Synod in the Orthodox Church?
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Cavaradossi
Guest
A synod is a local council of bishops, just as the quote from St. Cyprian describes.
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Celticnovice
Guest
Are you sure the portion in bold is true?
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byeveryword
Guest
Does the Synod receive (name removed by moderator)ut from the lay people of the church as to the character of the candidate for ordination? If so, in what manner?
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Cavaradossi
Guest
There are occasionally breaks in communion (they are both infrequent and temporary, however), but at the moment, I don’t think that there are any breaks in communion. Sometimes the clergy from one church will also protest celebrating the Eucharist together with clergy from another particular church if there is a strong disagreement between the two, but this rarely spreads to the laity.
Just as an example, a layman in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America is directly under the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of Constantinople, but if one day he winds up at a service in an Antiochian or Russian Orthodox Church (or any of the 13 other autocephalous churches besides his own), he is still free to approach the chalice and take communion.
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Cavaradossi
Guest
That is beyond my knowledge. I think that Synods in the Orthodox Church, like Synods in the Roman Catholic Church have very little lay participation if any. I can’t say that I know for sure if they call character witnesses or not from that particular candidate’s congregation.
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byeveryword
Guest
I thank you for your forthrightness. Now, it would seem from St.Clement, Bishop of Rome, that the consent of the whole local congregation was needed. Would you think this is what St. Clement is saying?
St. Clement’s letter to the Corinthians.
1Clem 44:1
And our Apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would
be strife over the name of the bishop’s office.
1Clem 44:2
For this cause therefore, having received complete foreknowledge,
they appointed the aforesaid persons, and afterwards they provided a
continuance, that if these should fall asleep, other approved men
should succeed to their ministration. Those therefore who were
appointed by them, or afterward by other men of repute with the
consent of the whole Church, and have ministered unblamably to the
flock of Christ in lowliness of mind, peacefully and with all
modesty…,
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byeveryword
Guest
There is one more quotation, maybe all of us need to consider in the light of St.Clement, Bishop of Rome’s writing (96AD).
The Constitutions of the Apostles, Book VIII, Sec.2 (date unknown)
IV. Wherefore we, the twelve apostles of the Lord, who are now together, give you in charge those divine constitutions concerning every ecclesiastical form, there being present with us Paul the chosen vessel, our fellow-apostle, and James the bishop, and the rest of the presbyters, and the seven deacons. In the first place, therefore, I Peter say, that a bishop to be ordained is to be, as we have already, all of us, appointed, unblameable in all things, a select person, chosen by the whole people, who, when he is named and approved, let the people assemble, with the presbytery and bishops that are present, on the Lord’s day, and let them give their consent. And let the principal of the bishops ask the presbytery and people whether this be the person whom they desire for their ruler. And if they give their consent, let him ask further whether he has a good testimony from all men as to his worthiness for so great and glorious an authority; whether all things relating to his piety towards God be right; whether justice towards men has been observed by him; whether the affairs of his family have been well ordered by him; whether he has been unblameable in the course of his life. And if all the assembly together do according to truth, and not according to prejudice, witness that he is such a one, let them the third time, as before God the Judge, and Christ, the Holy Ghost being also present, as well as all the holy and ministering spirits, ask again whether he be truly worthy of this ministry, that so “in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.” Matthew 18:16 And if they agree the third time that he is worthy, let them all be demanded their vote; and when they all give it willingly, let them be heard. And silence being made, let one of the principal bishops, together with two others, stand near to the altar, the rest of the bishops and presbyters praying silently, and the deacons holding the divine Gospels open upon the head of him that is to be ordained, and say to God thus :—
The Constitutions of the Apostles, Book VIII, Sec.2 (date unknown)
IV. Wherefore we, the twelve apostles of the Lord, who are now together, give you in charge those divine constitutions concerning every ecclesiastical form, there being present with us Paul the chosen vessel, our fellow-apostle, and James the bishop, and the rest of the presbyters, and the seven deacons. In the first place, therefore, I Peter say, that a bishop to be ordained is to be, as we have already, all of us, appointed, unblameable in all things, a select person, chosen by the whole people, who, when he is named and approved, let the people assemble, with the presbytery and bishops that are present, on the Lord’s day, and let them give their consent. And let the principal of the bishops ask the presbytery and people whether this be the person whom they desire for their ruler. And if they give their consent, let him ask further whether he has a good testimony from all men as to his worthiness for so great and glorious an authority; whether all things relating to his piety towards God be right; whether justice towards men has been observed by him; whether the affairs of his family have been well ordered by him; whether he has been unblameable in the course of his life. And if all the assembly together do according to truth, and not according to prejudice, witness that he is such a one, let them the third time, as before God the Judge, and Christ, the Holy Ghost being also present, as well as all the holy and ministering spirits, ask again whether he be truly worthy of this ministry, that so “in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.” Matthew 18:16 And if they agree the third time that he is worthy, let them all be demanded their vote; and when they all give it willingly, let them be heard. And silence being made, let one of the principal bishops, together with two others, stand near to the altar, the rest of the bishops and presbyters praying silently, and the deacons holding the divine Gospels open upon the head of him that is to be ordained, and say to God thus :—
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Orthodox ordinations are not illicit. Again, being non-Catholics, they are not subject to Catholic Canons. You can only be illicit if you go against the canons that govern you.
They are valid, they are licit, but they are not Catholic.
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Rawb
Guest
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Cavaradossi
Guest
It sure does look like that would be what St. Clement is saying. I’m not sure when exactly the practice might have changed from asking for the consent of the lay, deacons and priests (which is what St. Clement seems to be saying) to only using a council of bishops, but it probably happened pre-schism since both the RCC and the EOC do not do that any longer.
It’s also possible that he’s using a hyperbole and that he simply meant that they would ask if the people had any objections, rather than ask them for their explicit approval, which might be more consistent with how both the RCC and the EOC do it these days; that is, if the people disapprove of a bishop, and they have a good case, then the bishop can be deposed. It’s something which has happened throughout the history of the Church and continues to happen today.
I guess that it can sometimes be hard to determine what exactly these early church fathers meant when they said things because of the tendency towards figurative speech which can be inherent in their writings, but I think that both interpretations might make some sense, with one being a literal reading and the other being a little more in line with modern day practice (which both Churches would claim goes back to the time of the apostles).
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Rawb
Guest
Well, the people’s approval is still received whenever someone is ordained. That’s what the people’s cry of “Axios!” means: “Worthy!” but I’m not sure if the entire preceding is stopped if someone cries out “Unworthy!”
I know when my friend’s diocese in the OCA was electing a new bishop not too long ago their parish met with their priest and decided upon their choice from among a group of men (three?), and their priest took it to a diocesan ‘council’, and some representatives from that, both laity and clergy, were then sent to the Synod who made the a final decision, taking into account the opinion of that diocese as presented by the representatives. It might work different in different jurisdictions though.
I know when my friend’s diocese in the OCA was electing a new bishop not too long ago their parish met with their priest and decided upon their choice from among a group of men (three?), and their priest took it to a diocesan ‘council’, and some representatives from that, both laity and clergy, were then sent to the Synod who made the a final decision, taking into account the opinion of that diocese as presented by the representatives. It might work different in different jurisdictions though.
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Cavaradossi
Guest
Not having witnessed an ordination yet at my parish, I must admit that I was not aware of the people shouting “Axios!” I certainly hope, however, that I never have to see the day when somebody shouts out “unworthy!”
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TrentCath
Guest
Which is why I said in my first post ‘,…but being in schism they have far more serious things to worry about’
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Cavaradossi
Guest
Strange, I don’t worry about not being in communion with the bishop of Rome, nor could I find for you many Orthodox Christians who do.
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TrentCath
Guest
No. I am well aware that they wouldnt be concerned about them, I was merely pointing out that they should be in reference to something said earlier. Making presumptions generally isnt helpful.
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TrentCath
Guest
You misunderstand I was not saying that you worry about them (I have yet to meet an ‘Orthodox’ who does) rather that you should, coming from the Catholic perspective.
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