Question on ancestral sin

[fhansen]

We have to fight the passions do to the Fall. However, we choose to give into temptation or not. The Fall does not “make” us sin. We do that ourselves.

I understand this. But there seems to be some controversy here regarding the nature of the consequences of the Fall. Some EO maintain that man did not inherit an unjust state from Adam; we’re not prone to sin because of a lack of righteousness IOW, rather we inherited death, which traps us into a life with apparent boundaries defined by birth and death, concupiscence being the result of an underlying angst driven by that limitation, that knowledge that life is short. Jesus’ triumph over death removes these boundaries or limitations, freeing us from our fear of being deprived of the life we’ve been given. I think that’s the idea at least.

 

[suissemissed]

CCC 402 says:
All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners”: “sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned.” The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. “Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.”
So, yeah, I’m pretty sure the church teaches that.

From the 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia: “‘Your dogma makes us strictly responsible for the fault of Adam.’ That is a misconception of our doctrine. Our dogma does not attribute to the children of Adam any properly so-called responsibility for the act of their father, nor do we say that original sin is voluntary in the strict sense of the word.”

If you read the whole article, it will basically tell you the same thing I did, namely, that OS is the privation of sanctifying grace. The best way I can describe it is to use an analogy I heard somewhere: In the civil law sphere, if my father were to accumulate a mass of unpaid debt, and then die before paying it off, I would inherit the debt (along with the rest of his estate). The State isn’t saying I’m “guilty” of the debt, I simply inherited it and someone has to pay it off. It’s the same with OS. In the beginning Adam and Eve had a relationship with God. Then they forfeited that part of their “estate”, and thus all of humanity inherits the loss as well. We aren’t strictly guilty or responsible for it, but as members of the human “estate” we all share a certain indirect responsibility. That is what your quote from the Catechism means when it says we are all “implicated” in Adam’s sin.

 

[GaryTaylor]

A Byzantine Catholic perspective on what Western theologians term Original Sin:

The consequences of Adam’s fall (aka Original Sin) is physical and spiritual death. When a man dies, his soul is separated from his body (physical death) and his soul is placed in hades (spiritual death).

Christ’s soul was separated from his body and his soul went into hades. He being Life itself abolished the power of hades. He brought the righteous who were held captive in hades into heaven. The unrighteousness remain in hades until the final judgement.

Today, we are still born with the consequences of Adam’s sin. However, at baptism we are born again and, when we physically die while in Christ’s grace, our soul will go to heaven (I am not going into the purification process in this post). There is no spiritual death because we were born again in baptism and practiced repentance for our sins while on earth.

Since Christ destroyed the power of death and hades by his death and resurrection, we will be resurrected at the last day and live in the New Jerusalem with Christ forever.

St John Chrysostom says:
[Romans 5] Ver. 18. “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”
And he insists again upon it, saying,
Ver. 19. “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous.
What he says seems indeed to involve no small question: but if any one attends to it diligently, this too will admit of an easy solution. What then is the question? It is the saying that through the offence of one many were made sinners. For the fact that when he had sinned and become mortal, those who were of him should be so also, is nothing unlikely. But how would it follow that from his disobedience another would become a sinner? For at this rate a man of this sort will not even deserve punishment, if, that is, it was not from his own self that he became a sinner. What then does the word “sinners” mean here? To me it seems to mean liable to punishment and condemned to death. Now that by Adam’s death we all became mortals, he had shown clearly and at large.

Source: ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf111.vii.xii.html

As usual Zekariya

No difference here with East or West-Catholicism

The difference is that Eastern Orthodox theology is not influenced by Augustine’s teaching on original sin, especially the idea of inherited guilt. We believe that we inherit mortality from Adam and Eve. Thus, we do not believe that we are deprived of grace through original sin.

You would hope so but the statement indicates otherwise.

This is a contradiction as inheriting mortality I could only believe this means “death” thus this would mean you are deprived of Grace (have to die-thus guilty) thus one would be using the Augustine accusation incorrectly in regards to East/West Catholics, then upholding the incorrect understanding its proposed others are doing in the CC-EOC.

mor·tal·i·ty
mawr tállətee ]

1.death rate: the number of deaths that occur at a specific time, in a specific group, or from a specific cause
2.many deaths: great loss of life
3.certainty to die: the condition of being certain to die eventually

Death was a consequence of Adam and Eve defeated at the Cross.

 

[sent_by_God]

Sorry I’m so late with the respose, I haven’t been on for a while.
The two replies offered to my post seem to point out places in christianity where the opposite is taught, but since I am positing this as a contradiction, supplying proofs that catholicism teaches otherwise strengthens my point, unless someone can directly answer the CCC paragraph I quoted. It seems pretty hard to reconcile with the rest of christianity.

 

[GaryTaylor]

CCC 402 says:
All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners”: “sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned.” The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. “Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.”
So, yeah, I’m pretty sure the church teaches that.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Sorry I’m so late with the respose, I haven’t been on for a while.
The two replies offered to my post seem to point out places in christianity where the opposite is taught, but since I am positing this as a contradiction, supplying proofs that catholicism teaches otherwise strengthens my point, unless someone can directly answer the CCC paragraph I quoted. It seems pretty hard to reconcile with the rest of christianity.

 

[Josephene]

'Ancesral sin ’ - a good topic to ponder upon, as we come to the close of this month, dedicated to pray for , thus do our act of loving respinsibilty , for all the departed as we also enter in, to the start of the joyful Season of Advent , of the coming of The Lord , who comes to destroy the works of the enemy .

The results , from the choice of what our First Parents did , possibly incomprehensible for our human hearts at present , other than glimpses , esp. through the gift of what The Lord has revealed to mystics , such as Bl.Emmerich .

In describing the creation scene , she describes the perfection of the world (we hear so , from The Father Himself ! ) ; our First Parents , who not only shared in that perfection but the very image of God , were created in such glory , that they were full of the light of that glory - may be the mention of the light on the face of Moses , after his encounter with God or even the scene of the Transfiguration , possibly gives us glimpses of same !

She even mentions how they were to even share in the power to bring forth new life, even in the image of the Father , by mostly the power of spoken word , free from effects of carnality , but in total unity and holiness and selfcontrol ,
( not implying to lessen the goodness of the gift that it is , used in the holy manner it is meant for , as taught in depth , to meet the needs of our times , by Bl.John Paul 11 ) .

The scientific discovery , on how the universe itself , is made of vibratory energy, also gives support to our foundatioanl belief , in the power of The Word .

Thus , words of St.Paul can be taken at two levels - true , none of the humans that came after Adam and Eve , shared in the fullness of that first glory - that of the flesh , as far we know !

That helps us to know , more in depth , the meaning of the words of our Mother , who has been filled with grace from the moment of her own conception and as someone brought up in the very temple , under holy women , would have known her ’ lowliness ’ of the human nature , like the rest of all who came before her too !

And , to take in bit deeper , the depth into which our Lord came in , by taking on human nature , a nature that had lost its intended glory , but to which , The Trinity was going to take us back in …and to more , through all the ardousness and pain that it would entail , by not interfering with our dignity of being His children and the freedom that comes with it !

We can also consider that , St.Paul’s words , written as letters to those it is meant for , are for us fallen humans, not for the Lord or His Mother ( too literal a reading , otherwise could imply , that we women are not sinners ! )

Good thing is , as St.Paul too seem to want us to grasp , if the effect of the first sin has been so profound, the effects of what The Lord did , or rather does , by His very wounds that intercede for us , to send forth us The Spirit , into our wounds , to free us from the effects of the enemy life in us - esp of pride and the lack of faith , in His Word and His revealed will, in and through the Holy Church !

May His Spirit come in, esp. at every Holy Mass and by His Presence, in the Bread and Wine , to cast away all such effects , from our lives and lands , to let us again share in the divine life , to be fully revealed heerafter !

 

[fhansen]

CCC 402 says:
All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners”: “sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned.” The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. “Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.”
So, yeah, I’m pretty sure the church teaches that.

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Do Greeks believe bodily death is a result of Adam’s sin? Because I can’t speak for the rest of the Orient but that’s certainly not what I was taught from teachers based on the words of St. Ephrem.

MorEphrem, this is the point where we head to consistently.

The Byzantines teach that the separation of the soul from the body (physical death) and the soul’s being placed in hades (spiritual death) are the consequences of the Fall.

“Though all branches of Christianity – Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Evangelical and mainline Protestants – teach that Jesus Christ plays a decisive role in the Christian salvation process, the specifics of that role and the part played by individual persons or ecclesiastical rituals and relationships, is a matter of wide diversity in official church teaching, theological speculation and popular practice. Some Christians believe…”

Wiki Pedia, I know terrible sight but it puts the debate on-going in perspective, especially when we think Saints and communion of Saint and Assumed Body and Soul.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul

 

[sent_by_God]

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

Two objections.
First, since I am not a catholic, pointing out a place where the CCC contradicts what it says earlier does not refute me, but strengthens my point. I know I said this already, but I’ll say it again.
Second, it still makes no sense that their sin infected our nature. Keep in mind we’re talking of spiritual nature here (presumably), and our souls did not “come from” someone else’s, God created our souls, directly. Directly is the only way a soul can be created.

 

[MorEphrem]

So I’m just curious to ask how people who are not literalists of the Sin of Adam reconcile the ontology of Ancestral Sin with the fact that they don’t believe the action that generated the outcome?

 

[fhansen]

Two objections.
First, since I am not a catholic, pointing out a place where the CCC contradicts what it says earlier does not refute me, but strengthens my point. I know I said this already, but I’ll say it again.
Second, it still makes no sense that their sin infected our nature. Keep in mind we’re talking of spiritual nature here (presumably), and our souls did not “come from” someone else’s, God created our souls, directly. Directly is the only way a soul can be created.

First of all 402 & 404 don’t contradict; the latter just expands on the former.

Secondly, moral evil (sin) is universal. Was there a time when people were innocent, as God, in His goodness, presumably would’ve made us? I haven’t observed it. Children, at least as soon as they’re mentally able, at whatever point in time we want to place it, sin.

Lastly, I’ll ask, do we know God from birth? Adam did. And the chief consequence of original sin, according to church teachings, is separation from God, a condition shared by all humans, a condition not intended by God for man, not in keeping with His order or justice.

 

[Zekariya]

So I’m just curious to ask how people who are not literalists of the Sin of Adam reconcile the ontology of Ancestral Sin with the fact that they don’t believe the action that generated the outcome?

 

[sent_by_God]

fhansen, they do so contradict. Read the first sentence of 402 again. It’s quite explicit.