Question on Atheism

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The point is that the vast majority of pioneers in the organisation of spiritual and corporal works of mercy have been religious individuals and communities rather than those who reject God.
Simple statistics – if for most of Western history most people have worn a Christian label then they will have started most organizations.

We call our winter festival Christmas, but not everyone who gives a present is a Christian. You could widen the argument and say that most organizations were started by men and so women are inferior :eek: or even that most organizations were started by white people :eek:. In other words don’t such arguments portray a certain desperation, an unwarranted need to prop up a belief?

Instead it could just be that all organizations were started and tended by people, and that most people are basically good whatever their traditions and beliefs.
 
It’s the 21st century and some of us are still battling science as the enemy of religion. Perhaps some scientists are; but most are not. Religion and science are two different domains (there is, however, a “psychology of religion” APA branch) that need not be in conflict with one another. Science attempts to describe the “what” and explain the “how” of structures and processes, whereas religion focuses on the metaphysical “why” issues.
Agreed. We have a spiritual side - feelings about existence, feelings of wonder and awe. Some try to explain those feelings through superstitions, some through organized religion, others by doing away with anything supernatural. Scientists tend to fall in the last group. At this point I’ll trot out Richard Fenyman’s fine poem. He was a famous physicist, an atheist with these feelings - Address to the National Academy of Sciences 1955

(I guess the extended version of that poem is the whole of the book of Job :))

An organized religion provides a common vocabulary, a tradition and a community to explore and share our spiritual leanings. Imho the big problem comes from religionists who would disconnect it from the spiritual and make it a mere tool to hoist a set of dry doctrines on others. Jesus got really angry with them for messing with ordinary folk:

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. – Matthew 23:15 NIV
 
**To add a few more secular organizations: UNICEF, Save The Children, Amnesty International, Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth, etc. **

Secular organization does not equal atheist organization. This is a bizarre argument you are making.

Are all secular priests also atheists? :rolleyes:
Giving the names of secular organizations isn’t making an argument, bizarre or otherwise. What would be bizarre would be to argue that the only good people are those signed-up to brand X religion and we’re all doomed unless everyone thinks exactly alike.

No idea what a secular priest is, except he seems to be a Catholic priest outside an order, which is somewhat different from normal usage of secular, i.e. not having any connection with religion, such as those organizations I named.
 
The consensus comes from the repeatability of the observation, allowing for differences in position, perspective and time, and the general uniformity of results; there is no such general consensus of religious belief.
It remains a fact that all scientific evidence is derived from, and is the consensus of, subjective experience - which is intangible and unobservable by the senses.
Scientific theory predicts that certain observations will be made, consistent with the theory being an accurate description of reality. Religious belief claims revelation, but cannot point to much in the way of demonstration that this ‘revelation’ is a truth about the world as it is.
Religion is primarily the truth about what persons are - which has obvious implications for what the world is. It regards persons as more fundamental and potent than particles - just as the power of reason far exceeds that of purposeless processes.
That is an instance of non-Design.
But not the kind of random, chaotic non-design to which you seemed to be referring.

Non-Design necessarily entails fortuitous combinations of molecules and random mutations of genes which are undeniably purposeless events. All non-Design theories point to a pointless existence!
That the fruit of my beliefs is an emotive response to nature does not invalidate the rationality of the means of acquiring said beliefs.
An emotive response to conclusions based on observation and experience is not necessarily rational!
Gandhi’s success in achieving independence for India demonstrates that turning the other cheek is not so absurd and defeatist.
Gandhi had numbers on his side.

Numbers are irrelevant to the moral principle.
What’s more, the concept of nonviolent, passive resistance is not the same as turning the other cheek and simply accepting unjust treatment.
Jesus did not accept unjust treatment for everyone! Nor did He advocate non-violence as a universal principle or expect everyone to submit to injustice.
Taken in its entirety, Christianity is a faith deeply infused with the human notions of kingship, subservience, obedience, restriction and punishment.
The absurdity of that notion is exposed by Christians from the time of Jesus to martyrs of our own time like Martin Luther King, Jerzy Popieluszko and Archbishop Romero…
Evil and love are objective relations between objective individuals, i.e. sentient subjects… unless you reject our objective existence!
The actions resulting from these internal states could be called objective, but the feeling of love and the concept of evil are not identical with the actions they produce. If a dog attacks a child, we don’t consider it evil, because the dog has no concept of malice aforethought (or so we suppose). When another human attacks a child, we do consider it evil, precisely because of the subjective state of the perpetrator.
An evil action is distinct from an evil intention. It is arbitrary to separate the two. Morality concerns the motive, the means and the results. It is not restricted to the mental aspect.
Moreover, according to you there is no “no-matter”. Everything is a manifestation of matter and internal states will ultimately be explained scientifically and interiority will become a thing of the past! Subjectivity will disappear and be seen for what it really is: objectivity!
Pantheism is the belief that all of nature is divine. The fact that I am a metaphysical naturalist in no way undermines this belief - it simply places the origin of nature within nature itself, not outside of it.
How does nature create itself? Is it eternal?
Three simple words dispose of that hypothesis: “ought implies can”. (Kant)
Your scheme of things is a closed system ruled by blind necessity in which freedom, purpose and values are illusions. If only matter exists nothing matters!
Your response implies that you think physical causality entails only one possible state of affairs. This misses the fact that humans (and many other animals) are sufficiently complex collections of matter and energy that the processes of cause and effect are not limited to one possible outcome. They provide a continuous feedback loop between the internal states of an organism (such as a human) and the external conditions in which that organism exists.

Feedback loops do not leave any scope for freedom or responsibility. Physical causality can entail countless possible states of affairs but they all are purposeless.
As I think I mentioned before, it seems extremely odd to claim that you are an entity independent of the physical substance of your brain - one can’t reasonably excuse an action by claiming, “my brain made me do it.”
Precisely! The brain is an inadequate explanation of a person’s decisions…
Your claim also denigrates the value of human emotional responses (which are physical in nature), by claiming that nothing matters if we don’t contain some weird kind of spiritual non-matter that controls our thoughts and actions from someplace within yet strangely beyond our bodies.
The reverse is the case. Human emotional responses are denigrated, debased and devalued when they are **reduced **to physical phenomena - as when love is explained as a product of the sex instinct and persons are considered to be no more than apes…
You must also regard intangible realities like truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love as “some weird kind of spiritual non-matter” - which reduces them to fictions of the imagination which you can ignore at your convenience and allow you to give full rein to your impulses, instincts and desires…
 
The point is that the vast majority of pioneers in the organisation of spiritual and corporal works of mercy have been religious individuals and communities rather than those who reject God.
Code:
		 		 	 	 Simple statistics – if for most of Western history most people have worn a Christian label then they will have started most organizations.
With non-Christian values?!
We call our winter festival Christmas, but not everyone who gives a present is a Christian. You could widen the argument and say that most organizations were started by men and so women are inferior :eek: or even that most organizations were started by white people :eek:. In other words don’t such arguments portray a certain desperation, an unwarranted need to prop up a belief?
That argument could be used to disprove any historical fact!
Instead it could just be that all organizations were started and tended by people, and that most people are basically good whatever their traditions and beliefs.
Most people are basically good** in the context of** their traditions and beliefs.
 
As I think I mentioned before, it seems extremely odd to claim that you are an entity independent of the physical substance of your brain - one can’t reasonably excuse an action by claiming, “my brain made me do it.” Your claim also denigrates the value of human emotional responses (which are physical in nature), by claiming that nothing matters if we don’t contain some weird kind of spiritual non-matter that controls our thoughts and actions from someplace within yet strangely beyond our bodies.
🙂
The reverse is the case. Human emotional responses are denigrated, debased and devalued when they are **reduced **to physical phenomena - as when love is explained as a product of the sex instinct and persons are considered to be no more than apes…
You must also regard intangible realities like truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love as “some weird kind of spiritual non-matter” - which reduces them to fictions of the imagination which you can ignore at your convenience and allow you to give full rein to your impulses, instincts and desires…
Are you saying morality is only explicable if it relies on the inexplicable? :confused:
That argument could be used to disprove any historical fact!
Which was exactly my point - you are ignoring history by selecting for one label in isolation.
Most people are basically good* in the context of*** their traditions and beliefs.
Good to see you’ve finally succumbed to moral relativism. 😃
 
Are you saying morality is only explicable if it relies on the inexplicable?
False deduction! Intangible realities like truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love are inexplicable only in scientific terms.
Which was exactly my point - you are ignoring history by selecting for one label in isolation.
It’s not a label but a** reality**.
Good to see you’ve finally succumbed to moral relativism.
Another false deduction! It is not the moral truths that are limited but people.
 
False deduction! Intangible realities like truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love are inexplicable only in scientific terms.
Scientists never rabbit on about the beauty of equations? Never speak of symmetry? Never get excited about aesthetics? Or are you saying that if science can’t explain absolutely everything then it can’t explain anything and so is useless? As in “philosophy can’t explain solid-state physics so philosophy must be useless”. Seems a very nihilist road to go down dude.

Here’s the philosopher/theologian Thomas Aquinas proving light travels instantaneously, badly wrong to any modern European twelve-year old (or US fifteen-year old :D). Not nearly as truthful and beautiful as Einstein’s work imho.
ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/summa.FP_Q67_A2.html
It’s not a label but a* reality***.
So you’re saying it’s a historical reality that most Western charities were started by white men. Not sure how that helps us, if at all, but have it your way.
Another false deduction! It is not the moral truths that are limited but people.
I don’t think condoms are immoral but others do so I must be more limited. :rolleyes:
 
How does nature create itself? Is it eternal? Feedback loops do not leave any scope for freedom or responsibility. Physical causality can entail countless possible states of affairs but they all are purposeless.
Purposeless in a universal sense, perhaps - far from purposeless in that all states of affairs have bearing upon the internal states of sentient beings.
Precisely! The brain is an inadequate explanation of a person’s decisions…
There’s only so far this claim can go if you are unable to provide an explanation of how the soul - which I assume to be the entity to which you appeal here - interacts with matter and influences our decisions.
The reverse is the case. Human emotional responses are denigrated, debased and devalued when they are **reduced **to physical phenomena - as when love is explained as a product of the sex instinct and persons are considered to be no more than apes…
You must also regard intangible realities like truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love as “some weird kind of spiritual non-matter” - which reduces them to fictions of the imagination which you can ignore at your convenience and allow you to give full rein to your impulses, instincts and desires…
In what sense are human emotional responses denigrated by having a natural, physical explanation? The only denigration I can think of is that we are reduced from having an eternal, transcendent - and inexplicable - importance to having a temporal importance. I don’t see this as a denigration, because I don’t believe we have any eternal importance. I also don’t think that temporal importance is so easily dismissed as you seem to suggest. It affects the experiences of sentient beings, and is important while it lasts. You may as well ask all of us to forget our feelings because they don’t last forever.
 
Innocente, you seem a remarkably enlightened and thoughtful individual. I really appreciate your contributions to these discussions.

If I may ask, out of curiosity and interest, whether your insights are a product of your Baptist faith, or whether they stem from an essentially humanist sensibility, or perhaps a product of the interaction between the two?
 
inocente

Giving the names of secular organizations isn’t making an argument, bizarre or otherwise. What would be bizarre would be to argue that the only good people are those signed-up to brand X religion and we’re all doomed unless everyone thinks exactly alike.****

It is bizarre to imply that religious people do not contribute heavily, and more likely a good deal more substantially, that non-religious people to the organizations mentioned above. It’s really a feeble argument and you should back away from it in fairness to logic but even more so in fairness to the millions of religious people who contribute, as if their religiosity had nothing to do with the success of these organizations.

You are confusing secular with non-religious. Secular means in the world, or of the world. The world includes everyone, even Christians. Now do you understand? :confused:
 
inocente

Here’s the philosopher/theologian Thomas Aquinas proving light travels instantaneously, badly wrong to any modern European twelve-year old (or US fifteen-year old ). Not nearly as truthful and beautiful as Einstein’s work imho.

Isn’t this a juvenile way of thinking? Are you aware that there are seven hundred years between Aquinas and Einstein? Did you really expect Aquinas to come up with modern formulas for the speed of light? :rolleyes:
 
Perhaps in the early years of psychology, when psychology was thought of as the “new religion,” the majority of psychologists were atheists. Interestingly, many of them came from religious backgrounds. But in the modern age, it is not correct to say that psychologists as a group are more or less atheistic than most other groups. There are many more Catholic psychologists today compared to the past when psychologists consisted mainly of Jews and Protestants. There are more Muslims who are becoming psychologists today as well. Many of these people carry with them their religious beliefs as happens in other fields. There is nothing inherently anti-religious in the field of psychology. The link you provide contains older, historical data and is applicable mainly to the subfield of clinical psychology.
 
meltzerboy

Religion and science are two different domains (there is, however, a “psychology of religion” APA branch) that need not be in conflict with one another. Science attempts to describe the “what” and explain the “how” of structures and processes, whereas religion focuses on the metaphysical “why” issues.

As I recall, the atheist Freud treated religion as a neurotic condition that needed to be cured, and in time would be cured as science increasingly exposed religion to be an illusion.

So who would be the psychologists today mainly interested in the psychology of religion, and what aspect of religion would they be interested in explaining as psychologists, rather than as theologians? If these psychologists are atheists or agnostics, wouldn’t that skewer the results of their research? By the same token, if they were theists, wouldn’t that also skewer the results of their research so far as their atheist colleagues are concerned?

Psychologist Dr. Paul Vitz, a Catholic revert from atheism, has written a book titled “Faith of the Fatherless” with which you may be familiar. He rather deftly makes the case that his own attraction to atheism was a form of seduction he experienced. He became self-conscious of himself as an outsider among so many atheists in the field, and was thus drawn toward their group, only later to recover and develop a theory of his own as to the pathology of atheism.
 
meltzerboy

Religion and science are two different domains (there is, however, a “psychology of religion” APA branch) that need not be in conflict with one another. Science attempts to describe the “what” and explain the “how” of structures and processes, whereas religion focuses on the metaphysical “why” issues.

As I recall, the atheist Freud treated religion as a neurotic condition that needed to be cured, and in time would be cured as science increasingly exposed religion to be an illusion.

So who would be the psychologists today mainly interested in the psychology of religion, and what aspect of religion would they be interested in explaining as psychologists, rather than as theologians? If these psychologists are atheists or agnostics, wouldn’t that skewer the results of their research? By the same token, if they were theists, wouldn’t that also skewer the results of their research so far as their atheist colleagues are concerned?

Psychologist Dr. Paul Vitz, a Catholic revert from atheism, has written a book titled “Faith of the Fatherless” with which you may be familiar. He rather deftly makes the case that his own attraction to atheism was a form of seduction he experienced. He became self-conscious of himself as an outsider among so many atheists in the field, and was thus drawn toward their group, only later to recover and develop a theory of his own as to the pathology of atheism.
Yes, there is always the possibility of data interpretation being skewed by the researcher’s religious beliefs or lack of religious beliefs, as by their gender, ethnicity, age, and so on. One would hope that they can control that inclination. But psychologists are only human and science is never totally neutral to begin with (even the choice of research topic shows a bias), so you may be right. In point of fact, more psychologists who specialize in the psychology of religion may be biased in the direction of proving that prayer DOES have significant effects; but again, one would expect a certain degree of objectivity. I am indeed familiar with Dr. Paul Vitz from NYU and I know his wife (a French professor) as well. He’s been in psychology (non-clinical) for some time and perhaps he felt self-conscious as a Catholic earlier in his career. As I mentioned in my previous post, however, times have changed. Still, the development of a theory on the “pathology” of atheism, by its very topic, shows a degree of researcher bias, the same as Freud’s theory on the “neurosis” of religion. As you may know, Freud was torn due to his Orthodox Jewish roots and had an uneasy relationship with his father, who was very observant.
 
False deduction! Intangible realities like truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love are inexplicable only in scientific terms.
Can you - or anyone else for that matter - explain truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love scientifically to any extent whatsoever?
It’s not a label but a reality.
So you’re saying it’s a historical reality that most Western charities were started by white men. Not sure how that helps us, if at all, but have it your way.

The reality of Christ’s teaching is indeed historical as well as eternal and universal.
BTW Jesus was not white!
Another false deduction! It is not the moral truths that are limited but people.
I don’t think condoms are immoral but others do so I must be more limited.

Disagreement is uninformative…
 
How does nature create itself? Is it eternal? Feedback loops do not leave any scope for freedom or responsibility. Physical causality can entail countless possible states of affairs but they all are purposeless.
The issue is not the internal states of sentient beings:
The probability of miracles is based on the probability of God which is immensely greater than the probability that all life and development are ultimately fortuitous, valueless and purposeless.

False dichotomy.What other explanation do you have in mind - apart from Design or non-Design?

The issue is the origin of life and development.
Precisely! The brain is an inadequate explanation of a person’s decisions…
There’s only so far this claim can go if you are unable to provide an explanation of how the soul - which I assume to be the entity to which you appeal here - interacts with matter and influences our decisions.

The mind does not influence our decisions but makes them! It is presumptuous for anyone to claim to be able to understand the nature of ultimate reality. I cannot explain how mind interacts with matter any more than you can explain how matter is capable of thought and decision-making. The difference is that materialism is a rarity in the intellectual development of mankind whereas dualism has existed since the dawn of history. Moreoever the concept of mens rea (a guilty mind) is a hallmark of legal systems throughout the world. No one has asserted the existence of a “corpus reus” (a guilty body!).
Human emotional responses are denigrated, debased and devalued when they are reduced to physical phenomena - as when love is explained as a product of the sex instinct and persons are considered to be no more than apes…
You must also regard intangible realities like truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love as “some weird kind of spiritual non-matter” - which reduces them to fictions of the imagination which you can ignore at your convenience and allow you to give full rein to your impulses, instincts and desires…
In what sense are human emotional responses denigrated by having a natural, physical explanation? The only denigration I can think of is that we are reduced from having an eternal, transcendent - and inexplicable - importance to having a temporal importance.

The denigration is the equation of persons with **animals **that arbitrarily confer on themselves rights and obligations and “temporal importance” - which are absurd in an amoral scheme of things. In reality we are reduced to insignificant sparks in the dark - which with astonishing hubris have by some strange vicissitude created grandiose visions of themselves as the infallible interpreters of reality - like Steven Weinberg - in all its profound, eternal and inexplicable pointlessness!
I don’t see this as a denigration, because I don’t believe we have any eternal importance. I also don’t think that temporal importance is so easily dismissed as you seem to suggest. It affects the experiences of sentient beings, and is important while it lasts. You may as well ask all of us to forget our feelings because they don’t last forever.
You are attributing an importance to your feelings which is as subjective as your sexual preference for certain individuals. Why should others be concerned whether your appetites are satisfied or not? In a struggle for survival they would be far more concerned about saving their own skin than your life! It is only in the luxury of a secure environment that people are permitted to attribute importance to their feelings. Freaks of nature like higher(?) apes cannot be expected to control their instincts. It is only under the veneer of civilisation that our philosophy of life is really seen for what it is worth. You opt for the primacy of particles instead of persons but truth and love outlast death and the test of time…
 
Innocente, you seem a remarkably enlightened and thoughtful individual. I really appreciate your contributions to these discussions.

If I may ask, out of curiosity and interest, whether your insights are a product of your Baptist faith, or whether they stem from an essentially humanist sensibility, or perhaps a product of the interaction between the two?
A Baptist living in Spain is more likely to have been baptised with wine rather than water! 🙂
 
Innocente, you seem a remarkably enlightened and thoughtful individual. I really appreciate your contributions to these discussions.
Thanks! But it’s only relative to some others. 😃

I used to be an atheist and the Baptist faith is very minimalist, we don’t have any doctrines or hierarchies to defend, so ask six Baptists a question and you’ll get twelve different answers with no way to choose.
A Baptist living in Spain is more likely to have been baptised with wine rather than water! 🙂
Twas in a tiny swimming pool usually covered over at the front of the church, 18 of us in a batch job. Bit like this video but with fewer beards and no kids (some of these look too young). Yes, a nice red Jumilla would have been righteous. A pastor from that church shows the Baptist sense of humor in this video.
 
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