Question on Atheism

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It is bizarre to imply that religious people do not contribute heavily, and more likely a good deal more substantially, that non-religious people to the organizations mentioned above. It’s really a feeble argument and you should back away from it in fairness to logic but even more so in fairness to the millions of religious people who contribute, as if their religiosity had nothing to do with the success of these organizations.

You are confusing secular with non-religious. Secular means in the world, or of the world. The world includes everyone, even Christians. Now do you understand? :confused:
That’s not at all what I’m saying. There’s no need to put one group down to raise up another. The vast majority of donors and volunteers are motivated by compassion and justice whatever their beliefs, they should all be raised up. They don’t do it for a pat on the back or to get a front-row seat in temple whether they’re Christians, atheists or pot noodlers. If they themselves say they are part of a secular (or religious) organization then that’s it, period - in the case of something like the Red Cross/Crescent their work in war zones relies on total impartiality, and imputing religious or political motives would be counter-productive.
Isn’t this a juvenile way of thinking? Are you aware that there are seven hundred years between Aquinas and Einstein? Did you really expect Aquinas to come up with modern formulas for the speed of light? :rolleyes:
Again you miss the point CII. If it wasn’t for science then we would still go along with Thomas in thinking light is instantaneous. After all there’s nothing wrong with his logic, it’s his assumptions that led him astray, and without scientists testing assumptions we wouldn’t know any better than Thomas. Without the scientific method no progress would have been made in those seven hundred years.

So next time a philosopher argues with pristine logic that the mind is immaterial or that beauty is inexplicable, let’s remember the track record of philosophers making untested assumptions.
Since the majority of psychologists are atheists, I wonder how objective they are going to be about the psychology of religion?
Since the majority of Christians are not classical violinists, I wonder how objective they are going to be about the music of Bach? 😃

Here’s a psychological hypothesis posted on another thread. Remember to take deep breaths bro.
www2.selu.edu/Academics/Faculty/mrossano/recentpubs/religious_mind.pdf
As I recall, the atheist Freud treated religion as a neurotic condition that needed to be cured, and in time would be cured as science increasingly exposed religion to be an illusion.
We might safely put a lot of Freud’s work in the bin. All that theory about symbolism in dreams and he never once thought to actually watch someone sleeping. If he had he would have discovered REM sleep, and that on average we dream half-a-dozen times a night, and we can only remember waking dreams. A little more observation to go along with all that theorizing and he would have realized that analyzing the occasional remembered dream might just be a waste of everyone’s time. He wasn’t exactly a pinnacle of science imho. 🙂
 
Can you - or anyone else for that matter - explain truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love scientifically to any extent whatsoever?
Yes. Science has higher standards than philosophy, and as such doesn’t really go in for absolute truths. 😛

On beauty, the golden ratio phi was discovered by the ancient Greeks. It’s found in many living forms which we then find beautiful, our brains like the math and we use phi in architecture and art. The simplest derivation is from the Fibonacci series, and the numbers of the series occur naturally as a rate of growth.

http://ciis.gjhost.com/~ciis/LIB/ITEMS/15805/2/694780262_8874b4f225[1].jpg
Sunflower - 55 clockwise spirals on 34 or 89 counterclockwise spirals, all Fibonacci numbers. From spiritalchemy.com/blog/golden-mean-presentation

Or there’s the Mandelbrot set, a ridiculously simple iteration of z = (z*z) + c that generates the most beautiful patterns which go on for all eternity.
youtube.com/watch?v=WAJE35wX1nQ

The colors basically indicate how likely a point is a member of the set. It’s a nice programming exercise. This guy takes it to 2.1x10^275 (2^915 for purists) without any sign that it runs out of steam.
youtube.com/watch?v=0jGaio87u3A

So little by little beauty is being explained, turns out it has a lot to do with numbers, God as mathematician. Talk about your emergent complexity, or possibly not if you still have a downer on it. 🙂
 
inocente

Yes. Science has higher standards than philosophy, and as such doesn’t really go in for absolute truths.

This is nonsense of the first order. Science is always looking for absolute truth. Why do you think science keep correcting itself? It is refining its search to close in on the whole truth as opposed to partial truths.

What have you got against absolute truths? Are they uncomfortably close to God?

Had Einstein and the entire scientific community been better philosophers, we might not have had to worry about the nuclear annihilation of the human race … which is now absolutely within the range of possibility whereas before nuclear weapons it was virtually impossible. That’s wisdom or philosophy, not science. Your much loved science will be cursed by the human race if it ever turns out that the human race does not have enough wisdom to overcome the instruments of death handed to us by science.
 
This is nonsense of the first order. Science is always looking for absolute truth. Why do you think science keep correcting itself? It is refining its search to close in on the whole truth as opposed to partial truths.

What have you got against absolute truths? Are they uncomfortably close to God?
Noticing you missed my other comments to you in your eagerness to pounce, science is rightfully wary of absolute truths.

For example, it’s thought that things got started in the big bang, there’s a lot of high class evidence, it’s almost certainly true but there’s a chance it could be wrong. There’s no way of knowing with absolute certainty until all the evidence is in, and it’s a bit hard to know whether all the evidence is in when a better telescope or other gadget may be developed tomorrow. So while perhaps comforting, hoping for absolute truths isn’t very realistic.

Then the whole idea of absolute truths just isn’t useful, they become self-fulfilling prophesies – as soon as we confidently proclaim an absolute truth we stop work and down tools and then have no means to question or revise our conclusion. The whole reason why science is self-correcting is because it refuses to become fixated on absolute truths.

I’d have thought at least some real-world philosophers recognize the wisdom of a mustard seed of doubt, although obviously Internet philosophers not so much. 🙂
Had Einstein and the entire scientific community been better philosophers, we might not have had to worry about the nuclear annihilation of the human race … which is now absolutely within the range of possibility whereas before nuclear weapons it was virtually impossible. That’s wisdom or philosophy, not science. Your much loved science will be cursed by the human race if it ever turns out that the human race does not have enough wisdom to overcome the instruments of death handed to us by science.
Don’t understand. It was a big mistake to discover how to make fire? Rats, someone invented the wheel? We should curse knowledge and embrace ignorance?
 
**Don’t understand. It was a big mistake to discover how to make fire? Rats, someone invented the wheel? We should curse knowledge and embrace ignorance? **

Inventing the wheel and discovering fire advanced the human race. How have nuclear weapons and the threat of total destruction of human life on the planet been a boon to the human race?

Even Einstein regretted his contribution to nuclear weapons, though apparently you are fine with it?

Pray that the wisdom of godly philosophers overcomes the foolishness of ungodly science. 😃
 
inocente

science is rightfully wary of absolute truths.

You have confused “wariness” with the conviction that there are none. We can certainly believe in the existence of absolute truths without being certain we have yet achieved them.

Why not? :confused:
 
Inventing the wheel and discovering fire advanced the human race. How have nuclear weapons and the threat of total destruction of human life on the planet been a boon to the human race?

Even Einstein regretted his contribution to nuclear weapons, though apparently you are fine with it?
Fire led to arson and the wheel to drive-by shootings :eek:. Einstein wasn’t the first to propose mass-energy equivalence, and the idea that energy is proportional to mass x velocity squared was first proposed by Bernoulli, a mathematician, and Leibniz … a philosopher. If you want to blame anyone, look no further than the cursed guy who first discovered how to make fire.

Einstein may later have regretted his warning that the Nazis could be developing a bomb and involvement in Manhattan, but he did the right thing, he had no choice. And it was governments, not scientists, who paid the considerable sums of money needed to develop nuclear weapons, no doubt first getting approval from their Ministry of Philosophy, Basket Weaving and Volleyball. You could also argue there’s been no world wars since nuclear weapons, that they gave leaders pause to think, but that might be a hostage to fortune.

Of course, you may change your tune if and when we get clean electricity from nuclear fusion - knowledge is power dude. 🙂
You have confused “wariness” with the conviction that there are none. We can certainly believe in the existence of absolute truths without being certain we have yet achieved them.

Why not? :confused:
For the reasons given – thinking we’ve reached an absolute truth stops us from learning more and kills any chance of self-correction. There may indeed be absolute truths, but in practice it’s better to assume they’re unknowable than to be obsessed with finding them. Leaving aside jokes about philosophers, this is part of the philosophy of science, an attitude that doubt/humility is far more productive than certainty/arrogance.
 
Yes. Science has higher standards than philosophy, and as such doesn’t really go in for absolute truths.
I refer you to this article which reveals the tip of the iceberg of corruption in science:

the-scientist.com/news/display/38440/

Richard Sternberg was forced out of the Smithsonian for allowing a paper on Intelligent Design to be published!

Google: Dissecting science scandals & lab culture

The history of science is rife with scandals:

fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/health/crime_hate_crimes/news.php?q=1265832749

http://boston.com/community/blogs/creative_type/2010/08/the_plot_usually_goes_like.html
 
I refer you to this article which reveals the tip of the iceberg of corruption in science:

the-scientist.com/news/display/38440/
Er … that’s about supervisors trying to discredit a scientist. In one US museum. Don’t seem much of an iceberg from over here in Spain. Anyhow last time I looked scientists are human like the rest of us.
Yes, it’s always good to read blogs written to sell books. 🙂
The history of science is rife with scandals:
Reading another article at random on that site (the very first and last one I picked): Those who understand world history, also understand the Plan 2000 for total world control by the Khazarian Zionist Bolsheviks (KZB). The ancestry of the KZB can not be traced by race because they are not a race of people. They are a political group and can be easily traced through history by their creed as a political movement. In so doing one finds that the Pharisees of 2000 years ago were “KZB” (in thought) and had plans for total control of the people of their day. They could not allow a Truthbringer such as Esu “Jesus” Immanuel to upset their plans by giving Truth to the masses. He had to be destroyed immediately along with all of his teachings. As part of Lucifer/Satan’s Antichrist army, they laid their plans well. These Pharisee KZB elite buried the Truth of their day. Their students became the KZB leaders of the Antichrist army of today, who are still working to complete Lucifer’s Plan 2000! - fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/bellringers_corner/people_of_the_lie/news.php?q=1303229263 :eek::rotfl::eek:

Pardon me if I never again go to that site. Anyway I get all my US news from the vaguely more credible theonion.com/.
 
Er … that’s about supervisors trying to discredit a scientist. In one US museum. Don’t seem much of an iceberg from over here in Spain. Anyhow last time I looked scientists are human like the rest of us.

Yes, it’s always good to read blogs written to sell books. 🙂

Reading another article at random on that site (the very first and last one I picked): Those who understand world history, also understand the Plan 2000 for total world control by the Khazarian Zionist Bolsheviks (KZB). The ancestry of the KZB can not be traced by race because they are not a race of people. They are a political group and can be easily traced through history by their creed as a political movement. In so doing one finds that the Pharisees of 2000 years ago were “KZB” (in thought) and had plans for total control of the people of their day. They could not allow a Truthbringer such as Esu “Jesus” Immanuel to upset their plans by giving Truth to the masses. He had to be destroyed immediately along with all of his teachings. As part of Lucifer/Satan’s Antichrist army, they laid their plans well. These Pharisee KZB elite buried the Truth of their day. Their students became the KZB leaders of the Antichrist army of today, who are still working to complete Lucifer’s Plan 2000! - fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/bellringers_corner/people_of_the_lie/news.php?q=1303229263 :eek::rotfl::eek:

Pardon me if I never again go to that site. Anyway I get all my US news from the vaguely more credible theonion.com/.
These are all sites I picked at random out of a great selection… I don’t share your faith in the scientific Establishment. There is no reason to suppose scientists are morally superior to the rest of humanity…
 
inocente

Fire led to arson and the wheel to drive-by shootings.

Put on your thinking cap! 😃 Fire led to warmth and the wheel led to ease of transportation. They were not discovered or intended originally to lead to arson or drive-by shootings. Nuclear weapons were invented to kill, and only to kill.
**
Of course, you may change your tune if and when we get clean electricity from nuclear fusion - knowledge is power dude.**

If and when? Begging the question.

You may also change your tune if clean electricity turns out to be useless in a world savaged by nuclear weapons. :eek:

No doubt Einstein was not alone in lacking the wisdom of foresight, but he initiated the whole business in the political realm. Thank you, Mr. Genius! :rolleyes:

Einstein’s letter to President Roosevelt below:

anl.gov/Science_and_Technology/History/Anniversary_Frontiers/aetofdr.html
 
These are all sites I picked at random out of a great selection… I don’t share your faith in the scientific Establishment. There is no reason to suppose scientists are morally superior to the rest of humanity…
Agreed, I wouldn’t go along with that either. As a method science works pretty darn good, and because it’s self-correcting there’s not much need for faith in any establishment or authority figures.
 
Put on your thinking cap! 😃 Fire led to warmth and the wheel led to ease of transportation. They were not discovered or intended originally to lead to arson or drive-by shootings. Nuclear weapons were invented to kill, and only to kill.
Yes, bullets and arrows were a very bad move. Perhaps we should have kept that hunter-gatherer lifestyle, or maybe not come down from the trees in the first place.
You may also change your tune if clean electricity turns out to be useless in a world savaged by nuclear weapons. :eek:
You’re in a very apocalyptic mood today CII. We’re all doomed? Then with any luck we’ll all cleanly die of despondency and hopelessness first. 😃

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
(at xkcd.com/877/)
No doubt Einstein was not alone in lacking the wisdom of foresight, but he initiated the whole business in the political realm. Thank you, Mr. Genius! :rolleyes:
And hypnotized Roosevelt no doubt. But if Einstein had kept quiet and the Nazis bombed the US into submission, you’d still be upset with Einstein. Damned if he did and damned if he didn’t. Really, there’s no pleasing some people. 😃
 
But if Einstein had kept quiet and the Nazis bombed the US into submission, you’d still be upset with Einstein. Damned if he did and damned if he didn’t. Really, there’s no pleasing some people.

That’s right. But even Einstein was not pleased with himself. At least he had the courage and the sense to admit what you will not: that nuclear weapons are to be feared rather than invented. His own lack of wisdom he regretted. I think that is common in the scientific community, that it is full of brainy people with little training in wisdom … perhaps because they have not read, nor do they intend to read, the Scriptures? After all, to hear Dawkins prate, they are too-too smart to be taken in! :rolleyes:

You’re in a very apocalyptic mood today CII. We’re all doomed? Then with any luck we’ll all cleanly die of despondency and hopelessness first.

Spoken like a veritable atheist. 😃 Certainly not a positive atheist!
 
That’s right. But even Einstein was not pleased with himself. At least he had the courage and the sense to admit what you will not: that nuclear weapons are to be feared rather than invented. His own lack of wisdom he regretted. I think that is common in the scientific community, that it is full of brainy people with little training in wisdom … perhaps because they have not read, nor do they intend to read, the Scriptures? After all, to hear Dawkins prate, they are too-too smart to be taken in! :rolleyes:
I think all bombs against human targets are wrong and so can’t see a moral difference between Hiroshima/Nagasaki and the carpet bombing of Hamburg and Dresden. Some would agree with you, others would say the US had no choice but to develop the Bomb when it had cause to think the Nazis were also. The wise thing may have been to produce it but never use it except as retaliation if the Nazis used it first, and that seems to be what many of the Manhattan scientists signed up to. But all of this is in hindsight, with us sitting comfortably in no clear and present danger.

We can both quote a number of ethnic cleansing episodes in the OT where the supposedly righteous would have given their right arm for an atom bomb. 😛
Spoken like a veritable atheist. 😃 Certainly not a positive atheist!
Yes, I do reject the marketing strategy adopted by many on CAF, where apparently it’s necessary to be right-wing, dejected, and war against absolutely everything to be considered a True Christian™. 😃
 
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