Question on Covering

[reaganjn]

Okay so i was at work tonight and I was talking to another co worker that I want to start covering at mass, and maybe around the house during prayer time/rosary. This coworker covers due to chemo that she has been going through, she is also a Morman. She also gets offended when I wear my parfume, so I don’t wear it. (it doesnt stink, i just usually apply it about 15-20 min before i leave for work so it is at its strongest state at the time that i arrive)…anyways she said “well why dont you give up wearing makeup and parfume to be more humble to God?” she thinks makeup and parfume is a way to get attention from the world, and i think differently as long as it is in moderation. but i dont wear it for other people, i wear make up and the parfume for me. i enjoy it. i dont think she understands that when a woman puts a veil on her head it makes her humble, and to be more like Mother Mary.
sooo she wanted me to ask my priest how he feels about covering, make up and parfume. what do you all think and how do i explain the covering better to her so she gets it?

 

[PerfectTiming]

Why does her personal opinion on wearing perfume mean you can’t? I’m just a little confused by that.

You might like to visit (and join!) the group Veiled In Grace. “This is a group for women who choose to cover their heads for Mass, Adoration, Benediction, Confession, Prayer, or even on a daily basis. A place to come together to talk about this very personal devotion, share stories, support each other, and talk about resources for headcoverings.” It’s an excellent group and the members there are very kind and supportive and I’m will sure will gladly help you.

 

[grandfather]

Okay so i was at work tonight and I was talking to another co worker that I want to start covering at mass, and maybe around the house during prayer time/rosary. This coworker covers due to chemo that she has been going through, she is also a Morman. She also gets offended when I wear my parfume, so I don’t wear it. (it doesnt stink, i just usually apply it about 15-20 min before i leave for work so it is at its strongest state at the time that i arrive)…anyways she said “well why dont you give up wearing makeup and parfume to be more humble to God?” she thinks makeup and parfume is a way to get attention from the world, and i think differently as long as it is in moderation. but i dont wear it for other people, i wear make up and the parfume for me. i enjoy it. i dont think she understands that when a woman puts a veil on her head it makes her humble, and to be more like Mother Mary.
sooo she wanted me to ask my priest how he feels about covering, make up and parfume. what do you all think and how do i explain the covering better to her so she gets it?

It seems that there is a bit of contradiction between the act of a woman covering head with a scarf and wearing makeup. The purpose of makeup is to make oneself more attractive, more beautiful so that when someone looks at her they think she is pretty. There is a desire to be admired. Also implied in this is the wearer of makeup is unhappy in some way with how she looks, with her looks that she thinks need improving by the aid of cosmetics.

The use of cosmetics is motivated by some desire as is everything we do. The user wants to be seen as beautiful or attractive, maybe to attract attention to her looks and to have her looks admired. The same is true of what a woman wears, how she dresses. She puts on garments that flatter her appearance in some way.

A woman who covers herself wants to avoid admiring looks. She is saying I don’t want you to look at me. I don’t want anyone’s attention being focused on me or how I look, especially in church when people should be paying attention to God and their prayers.

One intention is to display and the other is to hide. One is a desire to please others by external appearance. The other is to not care what others think about external appearance.

As always there is some parallel between the physical and spiritual. In having a desire to be beautiful or make ourselves beautiful, the beauty that really matters is what God sees and that is not external. No cosmetics can help there. The soul can be made beautiful, by putting on holiness and the garment of grace. First it gets cleansed by the blood of Christ and the water of baptism and repentance. The soul that loves, God finds very beautiful and He is attracted to that soul as the soul is attracted to Him. Then He makes that soul more beautiful by giving it more grace.

Every soul is made to love and be loved. We all have a desire for love. I am not sure, but I think it is from this desire that a woman tries to make herself beautiful with makeup and jewels. She thinks that if she is radiant and beautiful outwardly she will be loved for it.

But that is not loving her or appreciating her for who she is or what she is. It is not deep, but as superficial as the layer of whatever she smears on her face. It is also not lasting. It lasts until the makeup fades. It is not true beauty. Rather it is aritificial. It is appreciating what she temporarily looks like wearing the mask of cosmetics. Cosmetics are a covering in a sense. They are a way to hide what really is there by distortion.

Many women can not go out in public without putting on their makeup. It would be like going out naked. They can not be seen without it, meaning they are afraid to be seen for what they really look like. There is no freedom in this and it seems to be a lifelong phenomenon.

My mother is 93. She can not leave her apartment in a senior living facility to go downstairs and pick up her mail without spending an hour or more combing her hair and putting on her makeup and getting dressed up. She will not go to the dining room for meals, because it literally takes two hours to get dressed and combed and made up. It is not worth the effort so she sits alone in her apartment rather than socializing with the other ladies she knows at dinner who are always glad to see her, not for what she looks like, but for friendship.

If you want to wear a veil to Mass to be more like Mary that is wonderful. Do you think she would wear makeup?

 

[Philotheatoo]

On the contrary, because I went to Catholic schools and church at the time when veiling was required, it SEEMED/SEEMS more reverent to do so yet, there is only one woman in our strictly traditional Roman Catholic parish who does veil. I asked the Pastor how he felt about veiling…he said it was NOT a good thing, it usually draws MORE attention, which in turn leads to vanity. I can see his point. Although it seemed more reverent to me, I believe those are feelings left over from my school days and I surely do agree with him that it draws MORE attention. It is his parish and I choose to attend Mass there so, I do not veil. You should ask your parish priest how he feels about it.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Seems to me that instead of calling attention to ones-self … use Jesus and Mary as role models … not to wear sandals and draping robes … but to dress just like everyone else so as not to stand out.

 

[LightBound]

It seems that there is a bit of contradiction between the act of a woman covering head with a scarf and wearing makeup. The purpose of makeup is to make oneself more attractive, more beautiful so that when someone looks at her they think she is pretty. There is a desire to be admired. Also implied in this is the wearer of makeup is unhappy in some way with how she looks, with her looks that she thinks need improving by the aid of cosmetics.

The use of cosmetics is motivated by some desire as is everything we do. The user wants to be seen as beautiful or attractive, maybe to attract attention to her looks and to have her looks admired. The same is true of what a woman wears, how she dresses. She puts on garments that flatter her appearance in some way.

A woman who covers herself wants to avoid admiring looks. She is saying I don’t want you to look at me. I don’t want anyone’s attention being focused on me or how I look, especially in church when people should be paying attention to God and their prayers.

One intention is to display and the other is to hide. One is a desire to please others by external appearance. The other is to not care what others think about external appearance.

As always there is some parallel between the physical and spiritual. In having a desire to be beautiful or make ourselves beautiful, the beauty that really matters is what God sees and that is not external. No cosmetics can help there. The soul can be made beautiful, by putting on holiness and the garment of grace. First it gets cleansed by the blood of Christ and the water of baptism and repentance. The soul that loves, God finds very beautiful and He is attracted to that soul as the soul is attracted to Him. Then He makes that soul more beautiful by giving it more grace.

Every soul is made to love and be loved. We all have a desire for love. I am not sure, but I think it is from this desire that a woman tries to make herself beautiful with makeup and jewels. She thinks that if she is radiant and beautiful outwardly she will be loved for it.

But that is not loving her or appreciating her for who she is or what she is. It is not deep, but as superficial as the layer of whatever she smears on her face. It is also not lasting. It lasts until the makeup fades. It is not true beauty. Rather it is aritificial. It is appreciating what she temporarily looks like wearing the mask of cosmetics. Cosmetics are a covering in a sense. They are a way to hide what really is there by distortion.

Many women can not go out in public without putting on their makeup. It would be like going out naked. They can not be seen without it, meaning they are afraid to be seen for what they really look like. There is no freedom in this and it seems to be a lifelong phenomenon.

My mother is 93. She can not leave her apartment in a senior living facility to go downstairs and pick up her mail without spending an hour or more combing her hair and putting on her makeup and getting dressed up. She will not go to the dining room for meals, because it literally takes two hours to get dressed and combed and made up. It is not worth the effort so she sits alone in her apartment rather than socializing with the other ladies she knows at dinner who are always glad to see her, not for what she looks like, but for friendship.

If you want to wear a veil to Mass to be more like Mary that is wonderful. Do you think she would wear makeup?

Let me say with a screen name of “grandfather”, I doubt you wear make-up So I will say that not all women wear make-up in an attempt to “display”. Many, many women wear make-up in an attempt to hide disfigurements, scars, or skin conditions that would otherwise make them stand-out (and not in a good way). I don’t think that’s an attempt to please others…it’s an attempt to have a normal looking appearance.

You are correct that what’s inside is what’s important, but I wanted you (and others on here) to be aware that not all women “put on a face” for others. Some do it for their own personal reasons (many of which may be to now cover what caused years of discomfort and teasing).

 

[crazzeto]

Okay so i was at work tonight and I was talking to another co worker that I want to start covering at mass, and maybe around the house during prayer time/rosary. This coworker covers due to chemo that she has been going through, she is also a Morman. She also gets offended when I wear my parfume, so I don’t wear it. (it doesnt stink, i just usually apply it about 15-20 min before i leave for work so it is at its strongest state at the time that i arrive)…anyways she said “well why dont you give up wearing makeup and parfume to be more humble to God?” she thinks makeup and parfume is a way to get attention from the world, and i think differently as long as it is in moderation. but i dont wear it for other people, i wear make up and the parfume for me. i enjoy it. i dont think she understands that when a woman puts a veil on her head it makes her humble, and to be more like Mother Mary.
sooo she wanted me to ask my priest how he feels about covering, make up and parfume. what do you all think and how do i explain the covering better to her so she gets it?

What she suggests can be a good, if it is being done as a personal sacrafice in devotion to God. There is no requirement to give such things up however, as we keep our materialism in check and proper order.

Covering has certain, specific roots and cultural significance in historic Christianity. All of the above applies to covering as well, however at least to my mind the historical aspect adds an extra demention.

Do the devotions you think will bring you closer to God with humility, and you will receive many graces from our Lord.

 

[LightBound]

Okay so i was at work tonight and I was talking to another co worker that I want to start covering at mass, and maybe around the house during prayer time/rosary. This coworker covers due to chemo that she has been going through, she is also a Morman. She also gets offended when I wear my parfume, so I don’t wear it. (it doesnt stink, i just usually apply it about 15-20 min before i leave for work so it is at its strongest state at the time that i arrive)…anyways she said “well why dont you give up wearing makeup and parfume to be more humble to God?” she thinks makeup and parfume is a way to get attention from the world, and i think differently as long as it is in moderation. but i dont wear it for other people, i wear make up and the parfume for me. i enjoy it. i dont think she understands that when a woman puts a veil on her head it makes her humble, and to be more like Mother Mary.
sooo she wanted me to ask my priest how he feels about covering, make up and parfume. what do you all think and how do i explain the covering better to her so she gets it?

People going through chemo (and those who have just finished) are often extremely sensitive to smells. As are those with allergies.

 

[prodigalson2011]

Okay so i was at work tonight and I was talking to another co worker that I want to start covering at mass, and maybe around the house during prayer time/rosary. This coworker covers due to chemo that she has been going through, she is also a Morman. She also gets offended when I wear my parfume, so I don’t wear it. (it doesnt stink, i just usually apply it about 15-20 min before i leave for work so it is at its strongest state at the time that i arrive)…anyways she said “well why dont you give up wearing makeup and parfume to be more humble to God?” she thinks makeup and parfume is a way to get attention from the world, and i think differently as long as it is in moderation. but i dont wear it for other people, i wear make up and the parfume for me. i enjoy it. i dont think she understands that when a woman puts a veil on her head it makes her humble, and to be more like Mother Mary.
sooo she wanted me to ask my priest how he feels about covering, make up and parfume. what do you all think and how do i explain the covering better to her so she gets it?

Given its relative rarity nowadays, I would somewhat agree with the previous poster who said it would attract attention. As anything different would, at first. However, if you don’t allow it to become a source of pride, it is a beautiful tradition, and I don’t see anything wrong with it, really.

Now, since you brought up makeup :: grabs soapbox::
I preach this to all the women (and men, actually) I know. To me, the cosmetics industry is one of the greatest assaults on the dignity of women. I, for one, find it unattractive, because it does, I must be honest, subconsciously suggest insecurity. Of course, I realize this is not true of all women, as most women nowadays wear it, including those closest and dearest to me, but still, the impression remains.God made you beautiful, women! Quit covering up his good work!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Why does her personal opinion on wearing perfume mean you can’t? I’m just a little confused by that.

People going through chemo (and those who have just finished) are often extremely sensitive to smells. As are those with allergies.

I want to second this. Its not just “her personal opinion”. Cancer centers require that no cologne or perfume be worn. Strong chemical smells are really rough on those of us on chemo. Yes I am on chemo.

The smell does not just bother us, we get nauseous and a massive headache. I found that even fresh mint sets this off in me which is something very unexpected as a group in my formation house grows it in our garden and eat it at meals. I am unable to sit at the table where they have it.

 

[PerfectTiming]

I want to second this. Its not just “her personal opinion”. Cancer centers require that no cologne or perfume be worn. Strong chemical smells are really rough on those of us on chemo. Yes I am on chemo.

The smell does not just bother us, we get nauseous and a massive headache. I found that even fresh mint sets this off in me which is something very unexpected as a group in my formation house grows it in our garden and eat it at meals. I am unable to sit at the table where they have it.

Ah that makes more sense. With the context of the question the impression I got was that the colleague had some moral objection to the perfume rather than a more medical one. Thank you for explaining.

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

Okay so i was at work tonight and I was talking to another co worker that I want to start covering at mass, and maybe around the house during prayer time/rosary. This coworker covers due to chemo that she has been going through, she is also a Morman.

Are you sure that these conversations are appropriate for the workplace?

Your reasons for covering are quite different from her reasons, but this doesn’t mean that you both don’t have legitimate reasons to cover. I don’t see the covering conflict here.

But I don’t see how this is each others’ business.

…anyways she said “well why dont you give up wearing makeup and parfume to be more humble to God?” she thinks makeup and parfume is a way to get attention from the world, and i think differently as long as it is in moderation.

Other posters have mentioned that some medical treatments can affect our olfactory senses. In addition to chemo, I also know that many asthmatics cannot abide strong perfumes, colognes, body washes, etc. If she’s asked you not to wear your scent because it’s physically giving her a hard time, I think it’s just common courtesy to refrain. If she’s asked you not to wear perfume as a way to humble yourself before God, you need to have a conversation with someone in your human resources department.

what do you all think and how do i explain the covering better to her so she gets it?

You don’t. I think you shouldn’t be having these religious-themed conversations in the workplace and should work on establishing personal boundaries with your coworker. Religious conversations at work are often not appropriate: they may be violating your company’s HR policies; and they could make you vulnerable if your relationship with this woman goes south and she decides to go to management complaining that you’re proselytizing on company time.

Luna

 

[reaganjn]

this conversation took place when we clocked out. i work in a lab at a hospital in a secluded place in alaska. everyone is extremely relaxed there. if you dont develope friends in the lab or in the hospital and socialize, you will be a very lonely person here and face severe depression. but where i was talking about this is either here nor there…

i dont wear my parfume around her out of respect since it does make her sick, even though she thinks i drown myself in it which i do not…only one spray is good to last all day.

i am very proud of my catholic faith…i am a new catholic of only 3 years now. and everyday i have this strong urge to cover to show humility. i feel that my makeup (which is not heavy at all, it looks very natural) is not a distraction. i have gone out in public without it, even though i prefer not to, but not a big deal if i do. that was the point i was trying to make to her that i feel i should be more like Mary, not physically but spiritually. does that make sense??

 

[nickybr38]

Personally I wear makeup because I have quite a bit of scarring on my face, coupled with very bad skin tone. I wear just enough foundation to cover these imperfections (and yes, they are imperfections caused from years of neglecting my skin when I was a youth) and sometimes I wear eye makeup because it makes me feel pretty (I’m not going to lie guys, that’s why I wear it - it’s the same reason I wear skirts, or dress up my hair… it makes me feel good)… however…

when I go to Mass, and I cover my head and humble my heart… I wear only enough foundation to cover the scarring and nothing more.

I think this is one of those things that each woman has to figure out for herself. WHY do you wear the makeup? Ask yourself that honestly and spend some time in prayer.

Do you think it sends a mixed message to cover your head in humbleness, then dress up your face?

Do you feel covering your face in makeup pleases our Lord? Does it displease Him? Are you uncertain which it is?

No one should sit in judgment of a woman who covers her hair and then wears makeup. Nor should one judge a woman who wears no head covering and no makeup. It is not the outside that matters anyway, but the inside. Sometimes the outside can reflect the inside but sometimes the outside is a product of training and not a true reflection of the inside.

Whatever you choose to do (to cover or not) is between you and God. Not me, you and God.

And I think that is something, at least in relation to head covering, that is aligned with Church teaching. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

That said, if you truly want to cover but veiling is frowned upon by your priest, why not put on a hat? That’s what I do and it’s far less noticeable. In fact, few people bat an eye.

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

this conversation took place when we clocked out. i work in a lab at a hospital in a secluded place in alaska. everyone is extremely relaxed there. if you dont develope friends in the lab or in the hospital and socialize, you will be a very lonely person here and face severe depression. but where i was talking about this is either here nor there…

i dont wear my parfume around her out of respect since it does make her sick, even though she thinks i drown myself in it which i do not…only one spray is good to last all day.

i am very proud of my catholic faith…i am a new catholic of only 3 years now. and everyday i have this strong urge to cover to show humility. i feel that my makeup (which is not heavy at all, it looks very natural) is not a distraction. i have gone out in public without it, even though i prefer not to, but not a big deal if i do. that was the point i was trying to make to her that i feel i should be more like Mary, not physically but spiritually. does that make sense??

It does make sense, and this is what you should tell her. Period.

Speaking as someone who’s lived in isolated situations with limited opportunities for friendship, I recommend that you not allow yourself to get drawn in to too many conversations where you feel like you must justify what you wear - on your head, on your face, and on your body - with this woman. People with controlling or critical personalities have a gift for exploiting situations like this, and if you’re not careful you’ll find yourself defending your diet, your hair color, and just about every other personal decision you can make to this woman. Been there and got that t-shirt. It’s a miserable, crazy-making way to live.

My best advice to you is to disengage with this woman. You don’t have to be rude, and you don’t have to cut her off. Be polite, be friendly, but keep that distance between the two of you. Look elsewhere in your albeit limited space for friendships. Become more self-contained.

Also, a pp suggested Veiled in Grace, which is excellent advice. I myself am a member of that group, and you’ll get lots of advice and support for your covering choices there.

Luna

 

[prodigalson2011]

Personally I wear makeup because I have quite a bit of scarring on my face, coupled with very bad skin tone. I wear just enough foundation to cover these imperfections (and yes, they are imperfections caused from years of neglecting my skin when I was a youth) and sometimes I wear eye makeup because it makes me feel pretty (I’m not going to lie guys, that’s why I wear it - it’s the same reason I wear skirts, or dress up my hair… it makes me feel good)… however…

when I go to Mass, and I cover my head and humble my heart… I wear only enough foundation to cover the scarring and nothing more.

I think this is one of those things that each woman has to figure out for herself. WHY do you wear the makeup? Ask yourself that honestly and spend some time in prayer.

Do you think it sends a mixed message to cover your head in humbleness, then dress up your face?

Do you feel covering your face in makeup pleases our Lord? Does it displease Him? Are you uncertain which it is?

No one should sit in judgment of a woman who covers her hair and then wears makeup. Nor should one judge a woman who wears no head covering and no makeup. It is not the outside that matters anyway, but the inside. Sometimes the outside can reflect the inside but sometimes the outside is a product of training and not a true reflection of the inside.

Whatever you choose to do (to cover or not) is between you and God. Not me, you and God.

And I think that is something, at least in relation to head covering, that is aligned with Church teaching. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

That said, if you truly want to cover but veiling is frowned upon by your priest, why not put on a hat? That’s what I do and it’s far less noticeable. In fact, few people bat an eye.

I must say I feel a bit of an *** after reading this.

 

[reaganjn]

Thank you!! You are absolutely right…when I work tonight and will not bring up the subject. I know she will, I will then make my point and then move on.

It does make sense, and this is what you should tell her. Period.

Speaking as someone who’s lived in isolated situations with limited opportunities for friendship, I recommend that you not allow yourself to get drawn in to too many conversations where you feel like you must justify what you wear - on your head, on your face, and on your body - with this woman. People with controlling or critical personalities have a gift for exploiting situations like this, and if you’re not careful you’ll find yourself defending your diet, your hair color, and just about every other personal decision you can make to this woman. Been there and got that t-shirt. It’s a miserable, crazy-making way to live.

My best advice to you is to disengage with this woman. You don’t have to be rude, and you don’t have to cut her off. Be polite, be friendly, but keep that distance between the two of you. Look elsewhere in your albeit limited space for friendships. Become more self-contained.

Also, a pp suggested Veiled in Grace, which is excellent advice. I myself am a member of that group, and you’ll get lots of advice and support for your covering choices there.

Luna

 

[puzzleannie]

sooo she wanted me to ask my priest how he feels about covering, make up and parfume. what do you all think and how do i explain the covering better to her so she gets it?

none of these by definition or by themselves have to do with humility, the attitude of the person who either does these things or foregoes them is the key. If your perfume is offensive to someone at work the charitable response would be to stop wearing it.

 

[pollycarp]

I want to second this. Its not just “her personal opinion”. Cancer centers require that no cologne or perfume be worn. Strong chemical smells are really rough on those of us on chemo. Yes I am on chemo.

The smell does not just bother us, we get nauseous and a massive headache. I found that even fresh mint sets this off in me which is something very unexpected as a group in my formation house grows it in our garden and eat it at meals. I am unable to sit at the table where they have it.

I third this. One whiff caused nausea.

 

[grandfather]

Let me say with a screen name of “grandfather”, I doubt you wear make-up So I will say that not all women wear make-up in an attempt to “display”. Many, many women wear make-up in an attempt to hide disfigurements, scars, or skin conditions that would otherwise make them stand-out (and not in a good way). I don’t think that’s an attempt to please others…it’s an attempt to have a normal looking appearance.

You are correct that what’s inside is what’s important, but I wanted you (and others on here) to be aware that not all women “put on a face” for others. Some do it for their own personal reasons (many of which may be to now cover what caused years of discomfort and teasing).

You are correct. I don’t use makeup. When I was in my late 30s I had surgery to remove the first of several cancers from my face. The wound was the size of a half dollar next to and below the outer edge of my eyebrow. When the bandage was removed immediately after the surgery my wife was in the surgeon’s office. I could not see myself, but only her reaction. She looked at me and gasped.

The surgeon said there would be a significant scar and asked if I wanted him to pull some healthy skin together to cover it. The extra cost was $1500 and I elected to forego it. It wasn’t the money, but I figured who cares if I have a scar on my face? My wife would get used to whatever I ended up looking like and I got her on the grounds of for better or worse.

Nevertheless if people have disfigurements that cause others to stare at them it is understandable that they would not want that kind of attention. I can’t imagine teasing someone in that situation, very cruel. Surely there are people who use cosmetics for this reason.

I suspect however that the vast majority of women who spend many billions of dollars annually on cosmetics are not disfigured or scarred. For some reason most women seem unhappy with how they look and want to change their looks so they apply makeup to accomplish the task. I am not sure that this makes them happy with their appearance, but they must think it is an improvement, or they would not go through the time and expense.

I was at a wedding recently. You get to see a crossection of ages. We sat in the church and watched the guests file in. Quite a few young women, friends or relatives of the bride and groom came in with their husbands and kids all dressed up.

Most of the young ladies were pretty heavily painted as expected so no surprise to an old geezer there. What was amusing though was the hair. It must have taken quite a bit of time and study to affect this new look, which I can only describe as total chaos. It looked like they put some stiffener in their hair and went through it with a brush to make numerous swirls go in all different directions. I thought, what are they thinking? This is hideous. Where did this come from, some magazine or fashion authority no doubt.

Often when I am on an airplane or at a gate waiting to board there will be young women reading the fashion magazines, the glamor bibles. They pour over the poses and costumes and hair styles studying the “latest looks”. They don’t realize how free they would be if they ignored all this.

Again, do you think Mary would be into any of this?