Question on first penance

[keepingfaith4]

i have witnessed ,for the first time,as a ccd teacher of 15 yrs,a dre deny first penance to prepared children.It is my first experience teaching in the north.

when asked why i was told it was because the parents missed a meeting.These parents nor myself were not told to attend a meeting,given no memos,plus they mostly have a language barrier.i do not want to lose these RCIC kids so without stepping on toes what do i do???

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

i have witnessed ,for the first time,as a ccd teacher of 15 yrs,a dre deny first penance to prepared children.It is my first experience teaching in the north.

when asked why i was told it was because the parents missed a meeting.These parents nor myself were not told to attend a meeting,given no memos,plus they mostly have a language barrier.i do not want to lose these RCIC kids so without stepping on toes what do i do???

You could respectfully raise your concerns to the pastor.

 

[KCT]

Please also consider that you may not know the whole story. On the other hand, you might know the whole story. Have a chat with the pastor if you’ve gotten as far as you can w/ the DRE.

Are the RCIC kids your responsibility?

 

[keepingfaith4]

Please also consider that you may not know the whole story. On the other hand, you might know the whole story. Have a chat with the pastor if you’ve gotten as far as you can w/ the DRE.

Are the RCIC kids your responsibility?

yes–i have been teaching rcic for 12 years but in a parish down south.this is my first venture up north and some of the procedures are new and confusing as far as requirements(more rigidity and less willingness to reach out to another culture.My students have always come from multi cultural and sometimes mixed(catholic and other) backgrounds

in this area i get very little info as to procedures and church requirements from the dre and in his defense he is more used to working with people he has known most of his career in the parish.i am not sure what things i can do without his okay

 

[Corki]

i have witnessed ,for the first time,as a ccd teacher of 15 yrs,a dre deny first penance to prepared children.It is my first experience teaching in the north.

when asked why i was told it was because the parents missed a meeting.These parents nor myself were not told to attend a meeting,given no memos,plus they mostly have a language barrier.i do not want to lose these RCIC kids so without stepping on toes what do i do???

If these were your own children, I would tell you that you don’t need the DRE’s permission to bring your child to Confession. However, since you are the teacher and not the parent, I don’t know how much you can intervene without “stepping on toes”.

 

[puzzleannie]

i i do not want to lose these RCIC kids so without stepping on toes what do i do???

not sure I understand the question
a, the DRE has no authority whatever to deny a sacrament, that judgement belongs to the pastor alone
b if these children are in the catechumenate (shorthand is RCIC but of course not accurate) they are preparing for baptism and so will make first confession after EAster.

 

[keepingfaith4]

not sure I understand the question
a, the DRE has no authority whatever to deny a sacrament, that judgement belongs to the pastor alone
b if these children are in the catechumenate (shorthand is RCIC but of course not accurate) they are preparing for baptism and so will make first confession after EAster.

that was how all the other parishes(3) i worked in did it----changing parishes only as i moved—here rcic is not allowed to do sacraments at easter vigil—this is saved for adults and teens only—we have been given a choice of doing communion with the second grade or possibly on our own-----doing it on our own has put the second grade teacher in a snit as she fears our group will have a larger turnout and i guess that means more to her than the kids actually getting the sacrament
we have already done most of the baptisms needed on an individual basis.
this dre has been given full authority to do as he wishes with the pastors approval as he has been running the program many years and has high connections in the diocese and is an intregal part of the diocesan education program

i am really beginning to understand why catholicism has taken such a downward plunge in this area—the area i lived in most of my life is still continuing to build churches–here they close down 1-2 churches every 4 months:(

 

[Phemie]

I don’t understand why children of catechetical age would be baptized other than at the Easter Vigil and why it’s reserved for teens and adults. Are all these teens and adults being baptized?

 

[keepingfaith4]

I don’t understand why children of catechetical age would be baptized other than at the Easter Vigil and why it’s reserved for teens and adults. Are all these teens and adults being baptized?

i do not understand this either and was told that this is what the diocese does

these teens and adults mostly have been baptized—only one or two have not—this is what i hear from the family members(usually i get the 3rd,4th,5th,6th,7th graders in the families–8th grade and up are sent to another catechist and a retired nun gets the adults

 

[puzzleannie]

that was how all the other parishes(3) i worked in did it----changing parishes only as i moved—here rcic is not allowed to do sacraments at easter vigil—this is saved for adults and teens only—we have been given a choice of doing communion with the second grade or possibly on our own**:**(

I am sorry I still don’t understand what group you mean when you say “rcic”.
If they are not baptized and are over the age of reason, and the diocese has implemented RCIA, there is one and only one way to proceed, and that is to prepare the children and confer baptism, confirmation and first communion at one time, namely at the Easter Vigil, and the preparation should be no less than one calendar year, from Lent to the following Easter, and include a minimum of 7 weeks mystagogy after Easter, until Pentecost. There is no provision in the RCIA for baptizing children who are no longer infants but delaying the other initiation sacraments.

when you say “doing sacraments on your own” do you mean the children and families are on their own, or the catechists are on their own? either way none of what you relate makes sense.

If you cannot get a straight answer from the DRE talk to the pastor directly, or to the diocesan director of catechesis, or the directory of sacraments and liturgy, who have juristiction over RCIA.

There is no such thing as RCIC. There is the Children’s Catechumenate, which is the RCIA adapted for children over the age of 7 and under 18.

 

[Phemie]

I am sorry I still don’t understand what group you mean when you say “rcic”.
If they are not baptized and are over the age of reason, and the diocese has implemented RCIA, there is one and only one way to proceed, and that is to prepare the children and confer baptism, confirmation and first communion at one time, namely at the Easter Vigil, and the preparation should be no less than one calendar year, from Lent to the following Easter, and include a minimum of 7 weeks mystagogy after Easter, until Pentecost. There is no provision in the RCIA for baptizing children who are no longer infants but delaying the other initiation sacraments.

**when you say “doing sacraments on your own” do you mean the children and families are on their own, or the catechists are on their own? either way none of what you relate makes sense.
**
If you cannot get a straight answer from the DRE talk to the pastor directly, or to the diocesan director of catechesis, or the directory of sacraments and liturgy, who have juristiction over RCIA.

There is no such thing as RCIC. There is the Children’s Catechumenate, which is the RCIA adapted for children over the age of 7 and under 18.

My interpretation is that the unbaptized children of catechetical age are being catechized and baptized at any time BUT the vigil and then the catechists have been given the option of combining both this group and the group that is receiving regular catechisis into one group for First Communion or keep the groups separate and have 2 celebrations of First Communion.

What I don’t understand is what the heck is going on with first confession — which the OP’s group of kids wouldn’t have required before First Communion if this parish did things the way it’s supposed to with the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults adapted for children.

OP, did the DRE say they couldn’t go to Confession or did she say they didn’t have to go to confession?

 

[keepingfaith4]

I am sorry I still don’t understand what group you mean when you say “rcic”.
If they are not baptized and are over the age of reason, and the diocese has implemented RCIA, there is one and only one way to proceed, and that is to prepare the children and confer baptism, confirmation and first communion at one time, namely at the Easter Vigil, and the preparation should be no less than one calendar year, from Lent to the following Easter, and include a minimum of 7 weeks mystagogy after Easter, until Pentecost. There is no provision in the RCIA for baptizing children who are no longer infants but delaying the other initiation sacraments.

when you say “doing sacraments on your own” do you mean the children and families are on their own, or the catechists are on their own? either way none of what you relate makes sense.

If you cannot get a straight answer from the DRE talk to the pastor directly, or to the diocesan director of catechesis, or the directory of sacraments and liturgy, who have juristiction over RCIA.

There is no such thing as RCIC. There is the Children’s Catechumenate, which is the RCIA adapted for children over the age of 7 and under 18.

you may call it that but the parishes call it rcic—the c substituting for the a for adult—this is for children above second grade level that have not completed their sacraments of initiation and in most parishes go to the age of 17 with 18 year olds being included with adults

on their own means a separate ceremony for children and families that is not part of the more elaborate ceremony for the second graders

there is very much here in this area that does not make sense and that i have never encountered in my many years of doing this

 

[keepingfaith4]

My interpretation is that the unbaptized children of catechetical age are being catechized and baptized at any time BUT the vigil and then the catechists have been given the option of combining both this group and the group that is receiving regular catechisis into one group for First Communion or keep the groups separate and have 2 celebrations of First Communion.

What I don’t understand is what the heck is going on with first confession — which the OP’s group of kids wouldn’t have required before First Communion if this parish did things the way it’s supposed to with the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults adapted for children.

OP, did the DRE say they couldn’t go to Confession or did she say they didn’t have to go to confession?

he said they could not and even turned some of the kids and parents away at the ceremony----his reason----they did not attend his meeting—never mind the lack of notice to the homes,the language barriers,the lack of inclusion of myself the teacher in his decision and ignoring that the children were prepared-------when i wasn’t looking one of the kids told me that one of my students went to confession regardless and stayed for the entire service—had i seen her i would not have had the heart to stop her

 

[KCT]

yes–i have been teaching rcic for 12 years but in a parish down south.this is my first venture up north and some of the procedures are new and confusing as far as requirements(more rigidity and less willingness to reach out to another culture.My students have always come from multi cultural and sometimes mixed(catholic and other) backgrounds

I’m sorry you are having so much trouble. It is confusing how different dioceses have different rules/ guidelines.

Last fall, at a talk given to DRE’s, the speaker asked, “Do you roll out the red carpet for families, or do you wrap them in red tape?”

I remind myself ‘red carpet?’ or ‘red tape?’ all the time!!

I hope you can work it out.

 

[PJM]

=keepingfaith4;8889365]i have witnessed ,for the first time,as a ccd teacher of 15 yrs,a dre deny first penance to prepared children.It is my first experience teaching in the north.

when asked why i was told it was because the parents missed a meeting.These parents nor myself were not told to attend a meeting,given no memos,plus they mostly have a language barrier.i do not want to lose these RCIC kids so without stepping on toes what do i do???

You accepted the Job: DO IT!

Jesus would!

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Phemie]

he said they could not and even turned some of the kids and parents away at the ceremony----his reason----they did not attend his meeting—never mind the lack of notice to the homes,the language barriers,the lack of inclusion of myself the teacher in his decision and ignoring that the children were prepared-------when i wasn’t looking one of the kids told me that one of my students went to confession regardless and stayed for the entire service—had i seen her i would not have had the heart to stop her

I say, meet with the pastor and arrange for your kids to have their own ceremony or encourage them to go on their own to regular confession after you’ve prepared them. Or does your parish not have regular confessions either?

 

[puzzleannie]

you may call it that but the parishes call it rcic—the c substituting for the a for adult—this is for children above second grade level that have not completed their sacraments of initiation and in most parishes go to the age of 17 with 18 year olds being included with adults

on their own means a separate ceremony for children and families that is not part of the more elaborate ceremony for the second graders

there is very much here in this area that does not make sense and that i have never encountered in my many years of doing this

I use RCIC for my computer record because it takes less time to type for each child than children’s catechumenate, but we are trying not to use that term because it confuses parents and catechists, and is just inaccurate.

OP still has not stated who these children are. RCIC is most definitely not about baptized Catholic children who are preparing for first communion at an age older than the “normal” time, another commonly used misnomer.

I know of only 2 dioceses where confirmation and communication of school age children is delayed after baptism, and they do not implement RCIA in any case. If the Diocese uses RCIA it must be celebrated as the rites provide, unless there is grave pastoral reason to do otherwise. The catechist however is not the person to implement this, the pastor is, so the catechist, OP, is bound by whatever the pastor has set up. But I still don’t understand why they are having confession before baptism. I don’t think OP is asking about timing of sacraments for her own family, but for the children she teaches.

 

[Phemie]

you may call it that but the parishes call it rcic—the c substituting for the a for adult—this is for children above second grade level that have not completed their sacraments of initiation and in most parishes go to the age of 17 with 18 year olds being included with adults

on their own means a separate ceremony for children and families that is not part of the more elaborate ceremony for the second graders

there is very much here in this area that does not make sense and that i have never encountered in my many years of doing this

So let’s be clear, you mean your group is mostly kids who are simply late receiving their First Communion? With a few who were unbaptized but who were baptized since they started in your course? You don’t have a separate catechumenate for the unbaptized children, they are lumped in with the rest?

I’m also curious, you mention being in the North and language differences. Do you simply mean you’re in the northern continental US?

 

[keepingfaith4]

So let’s be clear, you mean your group is mostly kids who are simply late receiving their First Communion? With a few who were unbaptized but who were baptized since they started in your course? You don’t have a separate catechumenate for the unbaptized children, they are lumped in with the rest?

I’m also curious, you mention being in the North and language differences. Do you simply mean you’re in the northern continental US?

i spent most of my time as a catechist in the south working with a very diverse group of children from families that had no english speaking members at home or had other cultural differences or had a parent of a different faith(occasionally non-christian)

now i am in a northern,rural state in a somewhat unprogressive diocese with fellow catechists that have been here forever and many that are not tolerant of the increasing latino families(i find the kids and parents most respectful religious but needing guidance and welcoming)
these older children have either baptized in another country,have not been involved in any religious life,or have been moving so much that ALL the sacraments have been missed.i have a helper that presents my prepared materialsto the rest of the class when i am preparing those to be baptized separately.i do this at the beginning of the year before first penance so that all my students can receive first penance together
is your religious program in a northern or southern state or is it in another country?

if i were to use the word catechumenate with my families most of them would be puzzled and never get the drift of the word nor its meaning-----a lot of my families still use the ccd word or catechism class or rcic

 

[Phemie]

now i am in a northern,rural state in a somewhat unprogressive diocese with fellow catechists that have been here forever and many that are not tolerant of the increasing latino families(i find the kids and parents most respectful religious but needing guidance and welcoming)
these older children have either baptized in another country,have not been involved in any religious life,or have been moving so much that ALL the sacraments have been missed.i have a helper that presents my prepared materialsto the rest of the class when i am preparing those to be baptized separately.i do this at the beginning of the year before first penance so that all my students can receive first penance together
is your religious program in a northern or southern state or is it in another country?

if i were to use the word catechumenate with my families most of them would be puzzled and never get the drift of the word nor its meaning-----a lot of my families still use the ccd word or catechism class or rcic

I’m in northern Canada. We’ve only had one catechumen in our parish in the last 15 years and only one received into full communion. Our catechumen was 9 when she started and we followed the RCIA to a T. She spent a full year in catechesis with one of the Sisters, was dismissed every Sunday, went through all the rites and steps and was baptized at the Easter Vigil a few months after she had turned 10. All her brothers and sisters were baptized as infants and she wanted to be part of the Church too.

When we run sacramental preparation it’s for every kid that hasn’t received that sacrament. We don’t have a Catholic school so everything is done at the parish level.