Question on God and His existence

[coolduude]

Hi all,

I’m talking with an agnostic and a question came up, to which I can’t give a solid answer. Maybe I’ll get some help here.

Here’s the problem:

How do we know the God we worship is indeed the unmoved mover, the uncreated one, the very act of existence itself? How do we know that our God is the God, and not a lesser one? We can deduce by reason that there must be an ‘unmoved mover’, so one must exist. But how do we know that our God is that unmoved mover, and not a creation of a higher being?

See what I mean?

I apologize if this question is dumb or foolish

Thank you,
coolduude

 

[dostoyevskyfan]

Hi all,

I’m talking with an agnostic and a question came up, to which I can’t give a solid answer. Maybe I’ll get some help here.

Here’s the problem:

How do we know the God we worship is indeed the unmoved mover, the uncreated one, the very act of existence itself? How do we know that our God is the God, and not a lesser one? We can deduce by reason that there must be an ‘unmoved mover’, so one must exist. But how do we know that our God is that unmoved mover, and not a creation of a higher being?

See what I mean?

I apologize if this question is dumb or foolish

Thank you,
coolduude

Sounds like you are using a version of the cosmological argument in the vein of Aquinas or Aristotle. When going that route, using any of the proofs in the “holy trinity of philosophy” (ontological, cosmological, teleological), I would recommending beginning with Anselm’s version of the ontological proof to establish the existence of a non-contingent God who’s necessary existence is inseparable from His essence, being that which nothing greater can be conceived.

Linking the aforementioned God with what we believe is obviously going to require some theology on your part. You may want to investigate, however; the death of Socrates, a time before our religion was revealed. He was put to death because of his belief in Absolute Justice, a platonic form that is also inseparable from a supreme being. He was also executed for a rejection of polytheism, while having an opportunity via his elite connections in society to escape punishment. For most rational people, this is evidence of the power of the human faculty of reason to come to the conclusion of the existence of an absolute being.

Our religion is unique in that it is a revealed religion. The eternal God became man, in the form of the word incarnate, and is the man/god paradox kierkegaard wrote about. Father John Corapi has several homilies on the subject. No other religion can claim the same. Scripture indicates that Christ was indeed omniscient, omnipotent, and maximally Just. The same God the Greek Fathers of philosophy deduced to exist before the time Christ, and through pure intuition and reason.

Hope that helps.

 

[VetA]

taking all of our personal experiences out of the equation, taking all of the maricles attributed to Him, taking all of the saints personal experiences away, it requires a leap of faith, in your agnostic friend’s eyes you will never win that argument.

 

[JohnDamian]

The ascending progression of an essential order is from more to less; by conseuqnce - the terminance is in one. – Naturally, it then follows that the higher the cause the more effects its causality embraces; as one goes higher - the fewer causes suffice; etc.

The essential predicates of the God we worship nessecarily embrace that he exists at the terminance of the regress of essentially ordered causes; and by consequence cannot be determinably discernible as anything posterior to a first cause.

 

[DPMartin]

Hi all,

I’m talking with an agnostic and a question came up, to which I can’t give a solid answer. Maybe I’ll get some help here.

Here’s the problem:

How do we know the God we worship is indeed the unmoved mover, the uncreated one, the very act of existence itself? How do we know that our God is the God, and not a lesser one? We can deduce by reason that there must be an ‘unmoved mover’, so one must exist. But how do we know that our God is that unmoved mover, and not a creation of a higher being?

See what I mean?

I apologize if this question is dumb or foolish

Thank you,
coolduude

coolduude

One thing that I have learned is the Lord our God never has a problem with an honest question. Just look at Peter’s relationship with Him when He walked with them (the Apostles) in the flesh.

(Sorry if it’s a little lengthy it ‘s a copy of something I have written some time ago, and it is easier for me to copy/paste.)

Not sure if this will cover it for you, but in Isaiah the Lord God said that He would be known as the God of Truth. What is immovable is the Truth for the Truth can be revealed but not changed.

God The Son, His Word, made manifest in the flesh known as Jesus the Christ who proclaimed God His Father many times. The Word of God is from God, a part of God, and is God. Just as your word, is from you, a part of you, and you are known by the your speech.

His Word is Truth for if He speaks it, it will be. The Almighty cannot lie for if He speaks it. It will be. Through His Word is that which all may know Him and all of creation obeys Him. For the Truth is the Truth no matter what the Truth is. Whether all mankind is aware of it, or not. It is still the Truth.

The Truth always was, always is, and always will be. It always was true that parting of the sea would happen, even before time. It always is true that parting of the sea happened, and it always will be true, forever. If one had foreknowledge of the Truth about the parting of the sea, before the parting of the sea , one could “prophesy”, or repeat the Truth about parting of the sea . Thus Moses knowing the Truth via the revelation of the Truth to Moses that the sea was going to part. He was able to demonstrate to the Israelites the Truth was with him when he raised his staff so that the sea would part. Just because something is manifest in matter doesn’t mean it was not true before it became apparent to the world, via a witnessable event in matter.

The Truth need not time, to exist. For it always was true that time would exist. The Truth need not energy, to exist. The Truth need not space, to exist. The Truth need not matter, to exist. All four need the Truth in order to exist. But the souls which dwell in the earth needs these things in order to exist, and to come to know the Truth. Though all things of the earth respond to the Truth accordingly, the souls that dwell in the earth, do not. For it is only to the souls of mankind, that it is given to choose not to obey the Word of God.

All things that are, are of the Truth. For if they are, then they are true. One cannot hold all the things that are true, in one’s mind. All the collective minds of mankind cannot know all that is true. But of Truth, all things are.

If you think that you would create truth by doing something so that it’s true. Think again, for it always was true that you would do that thing. It always was true that you would think to do that thing. it always was true that you would read this, it always was true that you were born into the world to think and do that thing. And you had no control over that. Needless to say it goes farther back then that. The Truth is, and there are a series of events, or responses to execute that which is true, that are all also true.

Truth prevails as above all. Or is greater then all. For the Truth cannot be created. The Truth is the source of all we can perceive or understand. Other then lies. But it is true that a lie is a lie, and that the lie was told.

If it were to be true, that there is no truth , then that would be the truth, thus Truth exists, and it is impossible that Truth does not exist. And that is the Truth. That which would teach you otherwise, knows this.

It is through the Truth the mankind knows God. Knowing that there is a Living God (a Creator, a Maker) is a matter of fact. For it is the fact that is the result of Truth, the existence there of, is the proof, or, that it is true. The experience there of is to know that which is true, a fact, a knowledge of Truth. But the knowledge does not make a Truth, for the Truth was there before the experience, or the knowledge there of.

All that there is, and all that is given, is by Way of the Truth. For there is no other Way for anything, to be, to have been, or to come to be. All is under the Mastership of the Truth. All other expression is to gain from that which is expressed to. To consume for the lacking, or want. Thus only the followers of the Truth, knowers of the Truth, lovers of the Truth, tell the Truth. In a world that rewards only for it’s own gain.

The Truth is not void, nor can it be. The Truth is not a lie, nor can it be. But it is only mankind that brings lies into a part of creation made good with the Truth.

The Truth is fully exposed to creation, which is of the Truth, and nothing in creation can change the Truth. For creation is the result of Truth.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

coolduude

*How do we know that our God is the God, and not a lesser one? *

Look for a better God. If you can’t find one, go with the best!

 

[dostoyevskyfan]

Christ, the logos or word, in the book of John is understood to be uncreated and preexistant. He is called the alpha and the omega, or beginning and the end.

I disagree with Veta concerning the fideistic approach or “leap of faith”. There are too many faiths to which to leap. Why not take a “leap of faith” to Islam, or Vishnu for that matter?

There are historical reasons to believe, philosophical, and scriptural. The coming of Christ was foretold by the Old Testament Prophets. Isaiah 7:14, Micah 5:2, Psalm 22, etc. The greatest of these is located in the Book of Daniel, given to Daniel by the angel Gabriel. If taken as 70, 70’s in weeks of years, you have a rough estimation of when to expect the messiah that corresponds to the date Christ appeared. This prediction was not after the fact, as it is a secular fact of history that the Book of Daniel existed hundreds of years before the New Testament. This prophecy is also mentioned by Eusebius in his early history of the Church.

One of the greatest arguments for the Divinity of Jesus, and the truth of the Catholic religion is the teachings themselves. If you cross examine the teachings of Christ to those of other religions it becomes apparent that they are unique, and diametrically opposed to human nature itself. While a religion of man, fabricated by men for their own glorification, would most likely emphasize qualities of man that help propagate the species ( Strength, adeptness in battle, wine gods, gods of the harvest, fertility or sex gods, etc…Such as the Greek and Roman Gods), a religion that goes against the natural inclination of man, is unique, and mostly likely was not created by man, but God himself. The non-believer assumes that the life of Christ is a lie, and the New Testament is a sort of “fairy tale”,…but why? What good reason does any human being have to invent such a stringent religion, and in many cases die for it? Taking into account that Christianity was viewed as a “cult” in its early formation, those who followed it deemed “atheists with respect to the Roman gods”, and in many cases persecuted, it doesn’t make sense that Christs teachings were fabricated to “control people”. Nero used Christians as a scape goat to for the fire. Most historians at the time of Christianity’s beginning thought it would die out in a few years and go extinct. No one would have guessed that it would fundamentally change western culture forever.

You don’t need a “leap of faith” to believe in Catholicism, you just need an education. I really like Charlemagne’s comment although it is not an argument for belief. I personally find the qualities of Christ admirable, merciful, and just. I cannot find any other God that is actually worthy of worship.

 

[marymichael10]

Hi all,

How do we know the God we worship is indeed the unmoved mover, the uncreated one, the very act of existence itself? How do we know that our God is the God, and not a lesser one? We can deduce by reason that there must be an ‘unmoved mover’, so one must exist. But how do we know that our God is that unmoved mover, and not a creation of a higher being?

See what I mean?

Firstly, it must be re-understood that faith in itself is a gift of the Almighty. If God indeed wanted all to know him as the unmoved mover, He at any time could work a giant miracle to make all believe. But we, as the Bible tells us and as is understandable through reason, believe that God works in mysterious ways, and “his foolishness is greater than our wisdom.” God, in all creation and even in redemption, worked silently, and gently…like in nature for instance. Jesus Himself at times reminded His disciples, “Tell no one that I am the Messiah.” But then later, He says “Blessed are those who have not seen but have believed.” God has set Jesus Christ as the foundation of our faith, resting on the death and resurrection of Jesus alone, and how in Jesus, He has fulfilled all His promises and proven Himself the true God, even at the cost of losing believers and bloodshed.

Back to the main point that God can be understood through reason. God can indeed be understood, because we of all creatures possess the unique ability to know His existence apart from revelation. But it is indeed in His revelation that we know that the God of Judaism and Christianity, is really in fact, the true, living God. Our faith goes back to the very roots of humanity itself (whether one believes in evolution or not). The God of many philosophers is a God outside the universe, unwilling to speak to His creation or even show concern. He is far to mighty and great to deign to stoop so low. Indeed, they are right that God is far too mighty and great to stoop so low, but they are wrong when they speak of God as afar from us… The God they speak of certainly wouldn’t prove Himself, because He has no concern to. But our God, who is the same almighty unmoved mover, is the true, living God…because in all human history, no God has ever proved Himself than the God of the Jews, and now the God of the Christians. One must just look to the hundreds of prophecies fulfilled in Jesus…the miracles to the modern day in Jesus’ name… God has made a permanent covenant with believers of His Son, and has proved that He is indeed the true God, living and eternal, Father and Creator of all.

On a last note, the very doctrine of the Blessed Trinity, is in itself, almost impossible; in the sense we cannot fully understand it. It is here where God has revealed Himself…as a Father, a Son, and a Holy Ghost… and the doctrine itself is so fascinating and far reaching that it almost warrants belief. God being the almighty eternal mystery that He is, is fully expressed in the revealed mystery of the Trinity; the very fact that God has told us who He is, while still shrouding the mystery.
“Let us create man in our image, to our likeness.”
God, the only God, created the universe through His Son, in His Holy Spirit, and has revealed such.

 

[dostoyevskyfan]

On a last note, the very doctrine of the Blessed Trinity, is in itself, almost impossible; in the sense we cannot fully understand it. .

What don’t we understand about it? It makes sense to me…

 

[marymichael10]

What don’t we understand about it? It makes sense to me…

I’m sure you do. It makes sense to me too. I mean it really is a mystery, worthy of pondering for a lifetime. 3 persons, 1 God…2 have origin, but all are eternal…how Jesus is at once the living Word of the Father, and His Son…the play on terms as Word and Breath (Son, Holy Spirit). Being that God is the mystery of mysteries, and the Trinity itself tells us who God really is, it’s something we can never really understand (though we can believe it because it’s been revealed) until we actually see God.

 

[Moonstruck888]

The coming of Christ was foretold by the Old Testament Prophets. Isaiah 7:14, Micah 5:2, Psalm 22, etc. The greatest of these is located in the Book of Daniel, given to Daniel by the angel Gabriel. If taken as 70, 70’s in weeks of years, you have a rough estimation of when to expect the messiah that corresponds to the date Christ appeared. This prediction was not after the fact, as it is a secular fact of history that the Book of Daniel existed hundreds of years before the New Testament. This prophecy is also mentioned by Eusebius in his early history of the Church.

That’s very interesting. Now, what if Benedict XVI had a vision tonight of the second coming of the messiah, and he wrote down the circumstances and time of his arrival. That would mean that someone who wished to be a leader of men and spread a message could read Benedicts predictions and see to it that they came true.

 

[JohnDamian]

That’s very interesting. Now, what if Benedict XVI had a vision tonight of the second coming of the messiah, and he wrote down the circumstances and time of his arrival. That would mean that someone who wished to be a leader of men and spread a message could read Benedicts predictions and see to it that they came true.

They could only “see to it” that those things within their power came true (were they an imposter)… Now, had you read the prophesy you would know that many parts of it are not redily replicable; particularily for a poor carpenter in a Land occupied by a foreign army.

 

[Moonstruck888]

They could only “see to it” that those things within their power came true (were they an imposter)… Now, had you read the prophesy you would know that many parts of it are not redily replicable; particularily for a poor carpenter in a Land occupied by a foreign army.

If they were readily replicable, then the fact that he replicated them would not be impressive, now would it?

 

[marymichael10]

If they were readily replicable, then the fact that he replicated them would not be impressive, now would it?

I don’t suppose it would be, if they were. Considering the age we now live in, it seems that anything is possible, especially deception (theoretically). But applying that to Jesus wouldn’t work, i would suppose, just because of the sheer number of prophecies concerning the messiah and fulfilled in him. But, on the skeptic standpoint, there are a couple things to consider:

1. Did Jesus replicate such prophecies purposefully?
   Yes and no. If Jesus was God, He, in Providence, could’ve made such things happen…or being God, knew the exact moment to come to earth for such things to be fulfilled. But if he wasn’t God, could he have accomplished this?
   I strongly doubt it. Considering the very fact that he was a poor man in poor times, when Jerusalem was under Roman rule, it seems an impossible task for one man to, in himself, fulfill all prophecies concerning the Messiah. One would have to work a lifetime, have many accomplices other than disciples, and fully be willing to die for a lie. It reminds me of the Last Temptation, in that Jesus had things done to make sure he would be killed…but realistically, this seems something that He wouldn’t do. Jesus followed what he preached down to the last letter, and Jesus gained believers because of it. And if God wasn’t on His side on such things, and he didn’t use magic, how did Jesus do awesome miracles and raise people from the dead, and perfectly prophecy his death and resurrection? People could’ve believed in Jesus while he was alive (considering there were, at the time, many prophets and sects), but real faith in Jesus was found after the Resurrection, when God “proved He had been with Jesus, and proved His Word true.” It was this faith that sent apostles to their glad and willing deaths, and this faith that lives, and defies logic.
2. Did the Gospel writers perfectly aquaint Jesus’ actions with those of a coming Messiah?
   Again, I would say no. Jesus supposedly preached to thousands, and worked miracles constantly…but He still lost believers constantly as well. Jesus’ preaching wasn’t always accepted, even by His followers, which is important considering the large view of the Messiah at the time was of a conquering King, who would throw down the rulers of Rome and free the people of God; while Jesus was a conquering servant, homeless and suffering, who told us to pray for enemies and accept God’s will (hardly a view that many would’ve taken of Christ).
   It seems certain that Jesus did exist and preached, and died and was risen around 33 A.D. In the gospel of Matthew in particular, Matthew is very concerned with the prophecies that Jesus had fulfilled: a virgin birth, Bethlehem being the Christ’s birthplace, and God calling his chosen one from Nazareth. Yet, there are many He just didn’t see. Such as the prophecy from Isaiah that the Christ would suffer for our sins, and shall see His descendants in a long life. And in a twist, Matthew being the great vigilante for fulfillment he was, marked that Jesus said “And it won’t be long until this temple, will be torn down, brick by brick.” Considering the timeline that this Gospel was written, it seems that this didn’t happen before Matthew wrote it, but about 10 years after. But many would point to this and say, ‘look! The writer is making up prophecy!’, while science says otherwise (no matter how much they wouldn’t want to)…concerning other Gospels, it is virtually only Mark that looks to the fulfillment of Messianic prophecies. Luke simply records the life of Jesus through many interviews, including those of Peter and Christ’s mother, Mary, while John shows us a personal view of Jesus, the Word and Son of God. So it seems to me that the writers were concerned with the fulfillment of prophecy to an extent, but not to the extent that they stretched the truth to make Jesus fit. These men died for the very fact that they believed…and I dont believe they died because of something they had fabricated.
   (It’s important to mention, too, that if these writers had made up this story, they created an entirely new kind of fiction: fantasy within reality…and being a bunch of fisherman and un-learned followers, I find that rather hard to believe).

It can never be proven either way, but I think it’s a whole lot more likely that God does exist, and promised a Christ, and kept His word and delivered one, than that a man or men fabricated this story that has been taught for the last 2000 years as one of the most incredible ever. It disappoints me when people do whatever in their power to find proof against God, when they simply can’t (the same when we try to find concrete proof, and simply can’t). I think there’s probably a reason He left room for belief, and faith…to see if we can believe, and would.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

How do we know the God we worship is indeed the unmoved mover, the uncreated one, the very act of existence itself? How do we know that our God is the God, and not a lesser one? We can deduce by reason that there must be an ‘unmoved mover’, so one must exist. But how do we know that our God is that unmoved mover, and not a creation of a higher being?

See what I mean?

I apologize if this question is dumb or foolish

Thank you,
coolduude

All of Gods attributes can be inferred defectively from the existence of a first cause. A first cause necessarily implies all of Gods attributes as believed by all of the 3 major monotheistic religions. However I haven’t yet succeeded in inferring the holy trinity as 3 persons; but i have managed to come up with an argument that i believe necessitates the idea that there is a community of persons in the concept of God, in so far as God is a timeless act of love and is not in anyway dependent on the existence of potential beings.

But you probably think i am a quack so i will leave it to somebody else. I am glad that you are still posting at the forums and using Aquinas’ arguments in debates.