Question on homesexuality

[Azazelle]

alright, this is my first thread, please bear with me if I made some mistake in placing it in this section or make some structure mistake.

my question is, why the catholic church sees homosexuality as a sin.

I know that passages in the old testament are often evoked to solidify this, but this always made me wonder if people ever realize that the same parts of the old testament also tell you not to eat pork/ shrimps or not to wear clothing woven from two different threads. I would like to know you can pick just selected paragraphs and ignore the rest. is there some ‘guideline’ book for this? or do you just pick what suits you best?

another thing often mention is that homosexuality is supposed to be unnatural.

well, in that case I can say that no, it’s not. it’s nicely documented for several species of animals (for example black swans). I think black swans are especially interesting in that case because they still show the wish to reproduce, while being monogamous in same-sex relationships. We have recorded cases of black swans stealing eggs from ‘normal’ swan couple to breed and raise them themselves. the explanation of this would be that is homosexuality is genetic. now if it is genetic, it’s not a things one’s own choice and as such it also can’t be sin.

Now I would like to know how the catholic church argues against this.

on a side note, no, I’m not catholic, I’m halfway between agnostic and Buddhist.
you don’t need to pray for me about this, I’m quite happy the way I am. if it sends me to hell, well I’d have interesting question to nag the devil with, then.

 

[Palm_Tree]

The Church has two classes of sin: mortal and venial. To be a mortal sin, three criteria must be met, one of which is whether the sin is a grave sin or not.

Regarding sexual sins, the Church recognizes 10 or so grave sins. You can find them in the part of Catechism on the 6th Commandment (CCC 2331 to CCC 2400).

There, the Church teaches us that the following are grave sins (I might have missed a couple):
–masturbation (CCC 2352, 2396)
–sex outside of marriage (CCC 2353, 2390, 2396)
–pornography (CCC 2354, 2396)
–prostitution (CCC 2355)
–rape (CCC 2356)
–homosexuality (CCC 2357, 2396)
–artificial insemination (CCC 2376)
–divorce (CCC 2384, 2385)
–incest (CCC 2388, 2356)
–adultery (CCC 2400)
–polygamy (CCC 2400)

Note that it says that the rape of children by their parent or teacher is a graver sin than rape (CCC 2356) and that it also points out that St. Paul stigmatizes incest as an especially grave offense (CCC 2388).

As for homosexuality, it is one of the grave sins against chastity, along with masturbation, fornication, pornography.

CCC 2396 Among the sins** gravely **contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.

CCC 2352 By **masturbation **is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that **masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.”**137 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."138

CCC 2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young. CCC 2390 … The sexual act must take place exclusively within marriage.** Outside of marriage **it always constitutes a **grave sin **and excludes one from sacramental communion.

CCC 2354 Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world.** It is a grave offense.** Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials.

CCC 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents** homosexual acts** as acts of **grave **depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

 

[Ne_OrangeKnight]

It is not the simple fact of being attracted to members of one’s own sex that is sinful, i.e. “being homosexual.” The problem comes in acting on it. For a man to engage in sexual acts with another man is sinful (just as it is sinful for him to have sex with an unmarried woman, or an animal).

The cause of such attraction, even if it is genetic (and there’s no proof that it is), is irrelevant. If a man genetically disposed to alcoholism, you would not encourage him to drink. If he suffers from bulemia, I can’t imagine that you’d say, “Go ahead and throw up. It’s okay, you’re bulemic.” We certainly ought to show compassion to such people, and towards any who suffer from anything. However, to confirm them their behavior certainly doesn’t help anything.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

 

[mark_a]

my question is, why the catholic church sees homosexuality as a sin.

The short answer is that the Catholic Church continues the Jewish traditional teaching about sexual sin of any type. Check this out for a well reasoned explanation:
ccli.org/nfp/morality/bible.php

I would like to know you can pick just selected paragraphs and ignore the rest. is there some ‘guideline’ book for this? or do you just pick what suits you best?

Folks like to point to homosexuality as the most grave sin of all. Many of these folks lead lives full of every other type of sexual sin, thinking that at least their section of hell won’t be as bad as the homosexual section of hell.

well, in that case I can say that no, it’s not. it’s nicely documented for several species of animals (for example black swans). I think black swans are especially interesting in that case because they still show the wish to reproduce, while being monogamous in same-sex relationships. We have recorded cases of black swans stealing eggs from ‘normal’ swan couple to breed and raise them themselves. the explanation of this would be that is homosexuality is genetic. now if it is genetic, it’s not a things one’s own choice and as such it also can’t be sin.
Now I would like to know how the catholic church argues against this.

The Catholic Church teaches that children of God should behave as such.

We have recorded cases of black swans stealing eggs from ‘normal’ swan couple to breed and raise them themselves.

Stealing is a sin for children of God too, by the way.

on a side note, no, I’m not catholic, I’m halfway between agnostic and Buddhist.
you don’t need to pray for me about this, I’m quite happy the way I am. if it sends me to hell, well I’d have interesting question to nag the devil with, then.

You already know the devil’s answer.

 

[eichenb2]

It is not the simple fact of being attracted to members of one’s own sex that is sinful, i.e. “being homosexual.” The problem comes in acting on it. For a man to engage in sexual acts with another man is sinful (just as it is sinful for him to have sex with an unmarried woman, or an animal).

The cause of such attraction, even if it is genetic (and there’s no proof that it is), is irrelevant. If a man genetically disposed to alcoholism, you would not encourage him to drink. If he suffers from bulemia, I can’t imagine that you’d say, “Go ahead and throw up. It’s okay, you’re bulemic.” We certainly ought to show compassion to such people, and towards any who suffer from anything. However, to confirm them their behavior certainly doesn’t help anything.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

I think it is often overlooked at that certain behaviors (not predispositions) are harmful to people and societies. The larger issue is the concept of guidance. Catholic Christianity and, for that matter, most religions gives its adherents more than a promise of eternal life. The Bible, including the New Testament, is wrought with admonitions and exortations to live in accordance with certain moral standards. It is correct that the moral code of Christianity, largely, was imported from Judaism. However, the Christian understanding was a Christocentric reading of the moral law. Therefore, the old ceremonial and civil laws of Judaism are understood as forshadowing the New Covenant. The sexual laws are kept in Christianity because they are central and intrinsic to the Christian concept of God. The bottom line is that conjugal love is beneficial to the individual Christian, as well as the society at-large, termorally and eternally only in the context of marriage that allows for procreation. People who engage in homosexual activity cannot naturally have children.
Also, to suggest that homosexual activity is practised by swans and, therefore, by extension, should be practiced by humans, is fool-hardy. There are some female spiders who eat the male after mating. I do not believe that it would be prudent for humans to condone this practice. It would bring divorce rate down, though.

 

[teachccd]

alright, this is my first thread, please bear with me if I made some mistake in placing it in this section or make some structure mistake.

my question is, why the catholic church sees homosexuality as a sin.

I know that passages in the old testament are often evoked to solidify this, but this always made me wonder if people ever realize that the same parts of the old testament also tell you not to eat pork/ shrimps or not to wear clothing woven from two different threads. I would like to know you can pick just selected paragraphs and ignore the rest. is there some ‘guideline’ book for this? or do you just pick what suits you best?

another thing often mention is that homosexuality is supposed to be unnatural.

well, in that case I can say that no, it’s not. it’s nicely documented for several species of animals (for example black swans). I think black swans are especially interesting in that case because they still show the wish to reproduce, while being monogamous in same-sex relationships. We have recorded cases of black swans stealing eggs from ‘normal’ swan couple to breed and raise them themselves. the explanation of this would be that is homosexuality is genetic. now if it is genetic, it’s not a things one’s own choice and as such it also can’t be sin.

Now I would like to know how the catholic church argues against this.

on a side note, no, I’m not catholic, I’m halfway between agnostic and Buddhist.
you don’t need to pray for me about this, I’m quite happy the way I am. if it sends me to hell, well I’d have interesting question to nag the devil with, then.

I love it when people cite the behavior of animals to justify human behavior. Some animals eat their young. So then does that justify humans eating their young? There are places where my dog finds to place his nose whereby most of us should find repulsive.

It would be quite obvious that when looking at the human body one might notice that it was designed for a man to have intercourse with a woman. I am an electrician and we cannot take two male ends of a cord and plug them into themselves. The same principle applies here. God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. So, while one may be oriented towards homosexuality, through no fault of their own, it is still disordered. We are compassionate towards them as we would be to anyone who is afflicted and must carry their cross.

Thank you for your science lesson on the mating habits of the black swan but humans have rational reasoning and animal insticts do not apply…God bless you and I will pray for you since you mentioned the “if”…teachccd

 

[CarlaOLS]

Here’s some more from The Animal Homosexuality Myth
by Luiz Sérgio Solimeo
narth.com/docs/animalmyth.html

*There Is No “Homosexual Instinct” In Animals

Anyone engaged in the most elementary animal observation is forced to conclude that animal “homosexuality,” “filicide” and “cannibalism” are exceptions to normal animal behavior. Consequently, they cannot be called animal instincts. These observable exceptions to normal animal behavior result from factors beyond their instincts.

– Clashing Stimuli and Confused Animal Instincts

To explain this abnormal behavior, the first observation must be the fact that animal instincts are not bound by the absolute determinism of the physical laws governing the mineral world. In varying degrees, all living beings can adapt to circumstances. They respond to internal or external stimuli.

Second, animal cognition is purely sensorial, limited to sound, odor, touch, taste and image. Thus, animals lack the precision and clarity of human intellectual perception. Therefore, animals frequently confuse one sensation with another or one object with another.

Third, an animal’s instincts direct it towards its end and are in accordance with its nature. However, the spontaneous thrust of the instinctive impulse can suffer modifications as it runs its course. Other sensorial images, perceptions or memories can act as new stimuli affecting the animal’s behavior. Moreover, the conflict between two or more instincts can sometimes modify the original impulse.

In man, when two instinctive reactions clash, the intellect determines the best course to follow, and the will then holds one instinct in check while encouraging the other. With animals that lack intellect and will, when two instinctive impulses clash, the one most favored by circumstances prevails.[4] *

At times, these internal or external stimuli affecting an animal’s instinctive impulses result in cases of animal “filicide,” “cannibalism” and “homosexuality.”

 

[Newbie2]

I love it when people cite the behavior of animals to justify human behavior. Some animals eat their young. So then does that justify humans eating their young? There are places where my dog finds to place his nose whereby most of us should find repulsive.

It would be quite obvious that when looking at the human body one might notice that it was designed for a man to have intercourse with a woman. I am an electrician and we cannot take two male ends of a cord and plug them into themselves. The same principle applies here. God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. So, while one may be oriented towards homosexuality, through no fault of their own, it is still disordered. We are compassionate towards them as we would be to anyone who is afflicted and must carry their cross.

Thank you for your science lesson on the mating habits of the black swan but humans have rational reasoning and animal insticts do not apply…God bless you and I will pray for you since you mentioned the “if”…teachccd

Dittos.

That “animals do X so it’s OK for humans to do X” is a tired, intellectually bankrupt, sophomoric argument. It should be clear to all that Catholics believe humans to be chosen to be superior by the Almighty. Best to argue that Cathlics are wrong rather than haul out the “animals do it” argument.

 

[wapsi]

my question is, why the catholic church sees homosexuality as a sin.

I know that passages in the old testament are often evoked to solidify this, but this always made me wonder if people ever realize that the same parts of the old testament also tell you not to eat pork/ shrimps or not to wear clothing woven from two different threads. I would like to know you can pick just selected paragraphs and ignore the rest. is there some ‘guideline’ book for this? or do you just pick what suits you best?

another thing often mention is that homosexuality is supposed to be unnatural.

well, in that case I can say that no, it’s not. it’s nicely documented for several species of animals (for example black swans).

Hi Azazelle,

You ask reasonable questions and have sparked some discussion. I see you’ve only posted four times since joining CAF and that you joined this month. I hope you will continue asking questions and discussing the topics here.

As for the picking and choosing of Bible verses, the more scholarly could talk about why those abominable shrimp are permitted. It has something to do with Jewish ritual law being superseded by the new covenant of Christ. But there is a larger issue, which I think is more important. The Catholic Church is guided by the Holy Spirit, who guarantees that the Church’s teachings will never fail on matters of faith and morals. As such, the interpretation given to the Bible by the Catholic Church is guided by God and so we can simply have faith that the interpretations are right.

As for the natural/unnatural aspect of homosexual acts. Yes, homosexuality is documented in nature. But when the Catholic Church describes it as unnatural, what it means is that homosexual acts are contrary to the nature of being human. As the Church sees human nature, relationships between men and women are complementary. Men are incomplete and women are incomplete, but united together they form a whole.

Pope Benedict talks about this in his encyclical God is Love

Two aspects of this are important. First, eros is somehow rooted in man’s very nature; Adam is a seeker, who “abandons his mother and father” in order to find woman; only together do the two represent complete humanity and become “one flesh”. The second aspect is equally important. From the standpoint of creation, eros directs man towards marriage, to a bond which is unique and definitive; thus, and only thus, does it fulfil its deepest purpose. Corresponding to the image of a monotheistic God is monogamous marriage. Marriage based on exclusive and definitive love becomes the icon of the relationship between God and his people and vice versa. God’s way of loving becomes the measure of human love. This close connection between eros and marriage in the Bible has practically no equivalent in extra-biblical literature.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html

 

[Azazelle]

Alright, answer to palm tree:

wow, thanks for that list I never knew how many sexual sins the catholic church actually knows. impressive.

Now I would like to know why sex always have to lead - inevitable - to birth and such. This mind sound very pragmatic, but I as a woman would not like to become pregnant every time I sleep with my husband since I don’t think that that would be very healthy to my body. Humans are not meant to get a child per year.

 

[Azazelle]

to Ne_OrangeKnight

don’t you think it’s just a tad bit cruel to deny someone the fulfillment of their sexual wishes if it’s something that small and un-harmful?
Plus, what would be the alternative? leading an unhappy celibate life? or leading an unhappy life together with a woman/man you don’t sexually desire but sleep with to fit in the world view of someone else?

 

[Azazelle]

Stealing is a sin for children of God too, by the way.

I was not trying to say that stealing is alright, I’m pointing out that apparently those individuals have the wish to reproduce, but also don’t want to leave the monogamous relationship with their partner.
it was meant to be a contra-argument against ‘homosexuality is unnatural because they don’t reproduce’

 

[Newbie2]

to Ne_OrangeKnight

don’t you think it’s just a tad bit cruel to deny someone the fulfillment of their sexual wishes if it’s something that small and un-harmful?
Plus, what would be the alternative? leading an unhappy celibate life? or leading an unhappy life together with a woman/man you don’t sexually desire but sleep with to fit in the world view of someone else?

It’s not “un-harmful” in the Christian view. That’s the whole point. Married people with children often see an adulterous tryst as “small and unharmful”.

“Unhappy celebate life” is an assumption. Many people live happy celebate lives. There’s no guarantee either way, but one’s attitude can determine one’s degree of hapiness in such matters.

 

[Azazelle]

Also, to suggest that homosexual activity is practised by swans and, therefore, by extension, should be practiced by humans, is fool-hardy. There are some female spiders who eat the male after mating. I do not believe that it would be prudent for humans to condone this practice. It would bring divorce rate down, though.

I never said that BECAUSE swans do it, humans should do it. I was just pointing out that obviously nature tolerates this kind of behavior, thus it’s not unnatural and I can’t see why the catholic church claims it to be.

(if it’s about reproduction, would that mean that every man/woman whose partner is not fertile is supposed to leave their beloved partner only to find someone to have babies with?)

 

[Azazelle]

As said before, I never just it as a justification, I just wanted to point out that if, happening in nature, it can’t be unnatural. Sides you can hardly compare homosexuality to cannibalism (I will not add the specific cases of tribes that do practice ‘funeral’ cannibalism and such which is motivated by love, not hunger)

Thank you for your science lesson on the mating habits of the black swan but humans have rational reasoning and animal insticts do not apply.

Really? I think humans are still largely controlled by their instincts, which root in animal instincts. A whole lot of our DNA is left over from former stages of evolution, and our brain didn’t fall out of the sky either. we developed and those earlier steps are still visible in our behavior, we call them instincts. They helped us survive to even get this far.

 

[Azazelle]

to wapsi

first off thanks for the warm welcome. I’m a known trouble maker for my teachers due to my ‘character flaw’ of asking questions myself. oh well. sigh

As for the picking and choosing of Bible verses, the more scholarly could talk about why those abominable shrimp are permitted.

That would have been my next question!

I think I liked your answer best, it was very reasonable, and it actually explained how the catholic church holds its position against all comers.

I would just like to know how Adam ‘left father and mother’ if he doesn’t have them (naw, just joking, it’s metaphoric, I know =D )

But I would like to know whatever makes the pope think that men are actually drawn to monogamous relationships when a whole lot of persons out there cheat on the person they’re supposed to love. and I think some of them even are devote catholics. (just a personal guess, but, well…)

 

[Newbie2]

I never said that BECAUSE swans do it, humans should do it. I was just pointing out that obviously nature tolerates this kind of behavior, thus it’s not unnatural and I can’t see why the catholic church claims it to be.

You seem to be avoiding the premise that humans and animals are quite different, as taught through Catholic theology.

“Nature tolerates this behavior” is nonsensical.

 

[teachccd]

Azazelle:

Really? I think humans are still largely controlled by their instincts, which root in animal instincts. A whole lot of our DNA is left over from former stages of evolution, and our brain didn’t fall out of the sky either. we developed and those earlier steps are still visible in our behavior, we call them instincts. They helped us survive to even get this far.

Really.

Humans have the capability for rationalization. We can conclude by means of deduction and discern by means of reason. If, as you point out, we were driven by instinct then we would not need civil laws and/or restraints. We could just react and without consequence. You are correct. Our brain did not fall out of the sky. It was created by God who willed that we use it in a matter that places us above the animals. Animals have brains as well but I would hope that you would agree by observing the world around you that our brains are utilized quite differently. There is a tremendous gap between the smartest animal and a human being’s ability to reason and love. In fact, humans actually kill for no reason whereby animals only kill to protect or for food.

If we use your reasoning concerning instinct then humans should be just fine mating anyone, anywhere. I realize that there are some species of animals that have one mate for life but most do not. So, which is it? Do we reason out what is disordered or do we imitate the animal kingdom and just react to external stimuli?

In closing, I know that humans have certain instincts but we do not rely soley on those instincts as you demonstrate when you rationalize the need to compare animals to humans. Animals don’t do that…teachccd

 

[teachccd]

But I would like to know whatever makes the pope think that men are actually drawn to monogamous relationships when a whole lot of persons out there cheat on the person they’re supposed to love. and I think some of them even are devote catholics. (just a personal guess, but, well…)

Nice slam! I would like to know whatever makes you think that Catholics are the only ones who recognize the value of monogamous relationships. But thank you for recognizing the Holy Father’s authority on such moral issues. A whole lot of people do a whole lot of things but that does not dictate proper behavior. You know better than that. Try again…teachccd

 

[omg]

Well lets see here by reading all of this stuff it seems that everything we do is a SIN makes living a little scary with all these comments especially when you talk to your Parish Priest on these isssuses and other Priest you get a totally different answere. That is why I just focus on JESUS and the CROSS and leave all this to God.

Living in End Time
GOD BLESS ALL OF US AND MAY HIS DIVINE MERCY SHINE ON US. AMEN
PEACE FOR US ALL.