Question on Homosexuality

[Mirdath]

My dog eats his own poop and licks his anus. Does that mean its OK for us to do so?

It’s not something I get into, but let’s say human sexuality can get very weird sometimes.

fix:

I find this amusing. You need me to define what is healthy? What does a physician do?

Define and attempt to support the health of a particular person in a particular instance. Do you have a general definition?

Bully? The persecution complex is showing. Any contra position is deemed hate, bullying, etc.

I have no problem with various religious teachings on homosexuality, so long as those religions don’t attempt to make everyone else conform to them. That is bullying.

Again, that something occurs in nature does not make it consistent with health or morally good.

Ah ah ah, you were talking about it being ‘natural’. Don’t try to dodge

 

[estesbob]

It’s not something I get into, but let’s say human sexuality can get very weird sometimes.

After I posted that I thougt the second example might not be a good one as many who engage in homosexual behavior would say yes.

 

[Nepenthe]

fix:

I see. So, you are an expert by association?

No no, just compared to you, Fix. I’m not appointing myself to anything much in particular, just mentioning that you know squat-all about matters of medicine and biology, and ranting doesn’t make you sound more informed. I did not take well to your ignorant slur against my family, that’s all that got my hackles raised.

Go ahead and stick to your uncharitable versions of the Church’s teachings and whatever logic you can muster, though you can’t seem to marshall them well enough to debate civilly or critically. As you were then, I suppose. Care to imply anything else about my life, my family, my sexuality or ethics? Perhaps you should keep such ad hominem trash out of your rhetoric. Just a suggestion, and one I doubt you’ll take.

And hey, estesbob! I don’t know about your dog, but last I heard, it’s perfectly legal to eat your own poop if you’re really so inclined. I wouldn’t maybe call that an attractive habit, mind you. And as for licking one’s own butt…hey, if you can reach, you probably have a career in showbiz! Or maybe politics!

 

[fix]

Define and attempt to support the health of a particular person in a particular instance. Do you have a general definition?

How does one treat pathology in one particular person if one does not have a general understanding of what it means to be in good health?

I have no problem with various religious teachings on homosexuality, so long as those religions don’t attempt to make everyone else conform to them. That is bullying.

No one is forcing anyone.

Ah ah ah, you were talking about it being ‘natural’. Don’t try to dodge

Huh? I have said before that something occurs in nature does not mean it is natural in the sense it is good and healthy.

HLA-B27 is associated with ankylosing spondylitis. Does that mean it is natural?

 

[AndyF]

Really…I think both sides of the fence can argue this till they are blue in the face and neither side will agree at the end.

There would be a stalemate if God hadn’t said it was wrong.

AndyF

 

[fix]

No no, just compared to you, Fix. I’m not appointing myself to anything much in particular, just mentioning that you know squat-all about matters of medicine and biology, and ranting doesn’t make you sound more informed. I did not take well to your ignorant slur against my family, that’s all that got my hackles raised.

What slur? I have responded in kind to your veiled insults. Now, I do not wish to continue in this way.

Go ahead and stick to your uncharitable versions of the Church’s teachings and whatever logic you can muster, though you can’t seem to marshall them well enough to debate civilly or critically. As you were then, I suppose. Care to imply anything else about my life, my family, my sexuality or ethics? Perhaps you should keep such ad hominem trash out of your rhetoric. Just a suggestion, and one I doubt you’ll take.

If you think I am wrong then simply post point by point how I am in contradiction of Church teaching.

 

[SaintMaker]

My question is this: (which is what my hairdresser and I
questioned)
do you think that homosexual’s are "born this way’?
or
do you think that through lifes experiences, that one can choose (not sure if this is the right word - but you know what I mean) this lifestyle and believe they are gay?

**NO gay bashing, please.
If this topic is not allowed on this forum, a moderator is welcome to delete this thread or move it.

I agree NO gay bashing.

I do believe that some are born this way and some choose it.

With that being said, it still does not make it an acceptable practice. If you are a practicing Catholic then there is no room for the gay lifestyle. Oh you will find support from Gay priests, or other ‘Catholics’ that want you to believe that it is OK. But it is not.

I have often found that people seek support for their sin by announcing “I’m gay I’m gay” or who come to message boards to ask if it is “OK” they already know it is wrong, they just want to seek support for their sin, because if they can just get one person to say it is ‘fine’ then they feel justified.

Don’t be that one person.

It is most definitely a difficult cross to bare, not the most difficult but a cross nonetheless. We know there are other crosses such as losing a child, being born deformed, cancer, starvation, war, alcoholism, obesity, sexual addiction, porn addiction, many addictions, etc.

Having a cross that is difficult is an opportunity to grow immensely close to Our Lord. Any cross, not just the cross of homosexuality. It is not a curse, but a cross. We all have temptations that get hold of us at times. Gossiping, over eating, drinking in excess, being gluttenous with our computer time or TV, neglecting our prayer life, etc. But when we sin, and we turn to God and ask for forgiveness, He is always there with open arms, waiting for us. I’ve sometimes looked at these temptations as gifts, wrapped in some hideous wrapping paper I might add, but in the end they are gifts.

God knows the pull of our sin. He knows everything, but he just wants us to turn to Him in all things. The big and the small. So bottom line it doesn’t matter if they choose to be gay or are born gay, they just can’t act on it.

If we as a society accept homosexuality as a lifestyle option then we have turned our backs on God. WE are as sinful as the person acting on the homosexual urges. Wait, I think we are even more sinful. Because here we are given an opportunity to help someone carry their cross and instead of being bothered, or being uncomfortable or risk losing that persons friendship, we take on a stand of indifference.

Jeremiah 23:1, Woe to the shepherds who mislead and scatter the flock of my pasture, says the LORD.

Acting on homosexual urges is wrong. God has given us plenty of biblical text to turn to regarding this. Sodomy is wrong. Period.

However, we must love, and fully embrace all God’s people. “Love one another as I have loved You.” We must never judge nor gossip about people and their sins. Rather we should humbly drop to our needs and beg God to lead them out of temptation. We are not better than someone with homosexual urges, we just were not given that burden. Suffering brings us closer to God. It makes us more like Jesus who carried the biggest cross of all.

It is the same reason we must NEVER judge anyone. We can certainly forgive them, help them and sometimes imprison them for their crimes. But we must love all sinners.

For those with homosexual urges. Choose today to not act on them but to ask God what it is He has in store for you. Ask him to reveal His will to you. Then get ready for a ride of your life. If we turn our backs on Our Lord then we will never know what He wants of us.

Let’s pray for each other in all our temptations. The devil knows our weaknesses … he certainly knows mine … but we must lean on each other and help each other through the dark times as well as celebrate the joyful moments.

 

[Mirdath]

After I posted that I thougt the second example might not be a good one as many who engage in homosexual behavior would say yes.

Oh, it’s not exclusive to homosexuals by any stretch.

fix:

How does one treat pathology in one particular person if one does not have a general understanding of what it means to be in good health?

Let’s be more specific: I can be ‘healthy’ and fit on a steady diet of all manner of fattening home cooking and junkfood. I still look like a string bean. Could a morbidly obese person be healthy on such a diet? No. The question of what makes a person healthy can have vastly different answers depending on that person, and the goal to reach to be ‘healthy’ similarly differs. The state of health is not one single point on a grid, it’s a wide range.

HLA-B27 is associated with ankylosing spondylitis. Does that mean it is natural?

Sure does. Now, make your case that homosexuality is a disease?

 

[estesbob]

Oh, it’s not exclusive to homosexuals by any stretch.

You must run in different heterosexual circles than i do. However it will be hard to continue this discussion without getting too graphic.

I think CPS should invetigate to see if those penguins are legally married and if not the child should be placed in a foster penguin home.

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_12_32.gifsmileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_206.gif

%between%

 

[fix]

Let’s be more specific: I can be ‘healthy’ and fit on a steady diet of all manner of fattening home cooking and junkfood. I still look like a string bean. Could a morbidly obese person be healthy on such a diet?

The diet can be objectively healthy or not. Your point really does not make sense. The “thin” person is healthy, in this case, regardless of how unhealthy the diet is. How do we know this? Because we know what signs are consistent with health! We know normal physiology. We know pathophysiology.

The “obese” person is not healthy. In fact, even on a “healthy” diet such a person would not be healthy at least not immediately.

The point is we know what health is and we know what disease is.

No. The question of what makes a person healthy can have vastly different answers depending on that person, and the goal to reach to be ‘healthy’ similarly differs. The state of health is not one single point on a grid, it’s a wide range.

Sure, there is a range. That range exists because not everyone can be in “perfect” health. That does not mean we cannot qunatify what is health and what is disease.

Sure does. Now, make your case that homosexuality is a disease?

It is “natural” in that it occurs in nature. Does that make it axiomatically healthy? Are humans designed to have that defect?

 

[fix]

The discussion of health and pathology reminds of the discussions of morality. Many claim it is all relative. Why? I submit for the same reasons people want to toy with definitions of health.

Keep them all plastic to allow…anything.

 

[Mirdath]

You must run in different heterosexual circles than i do. However it will be hard to continue this discussion without getting too graphic.

Safe bet.

I think CPS should invetigate to see if those penguins are legally married and if not the child should be placed in a foster penguin home.

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_12_32.gifsmileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_206.gif

%between%

Butbutbut… straight penguins aren’t married either! They’re cohabitating and fornicating!

Bob, do you remember the Bloom County sequence on ‘penguin lust’?

fix:

The diet can be objectively healthy or not. Your point really does not make sense. The “thin” person is healthy, in this case, regardless of how unhealthy the diet is.

Actually, I’m quite underweight. But I don’t seem to be really able to gain to the point of not being there anymore, so for me, ‘healthy’ is about where I’m at now.

It is “natural” in that it occurs in nature. Does that make it axiomatically healthy? Are humans designed to have that defect?

Heterosexual vaginal sex isn’t all that ‘healthy’ either. It upsets the pH balance in the vagina, can lead to yeast infections, sexually transmitted diseases, friction pain, and embarrassing hickeys. Even the first time often involves pain and blood for the woman. Is the hymen then a defect?

 

[Nepenthe]

Such a pity there are so few good Catholic penguins these days, my word yes.

And also :tsktsk:.

And still…AWWW!

Ahem, okay…no, fix we do NOT ‘objectively know’ what ‘health’ is, or even ‘normality’ as such. There are averages and figures, but they’re all shot full of exceptions. Mirdath’s a stickfigure, though I do my best to lay down the chubby hoodoo with my cookery skills. And then there’s age - Mirdath’s young, half my age, so our metabolisms differ greatly, and while we both tend to want to eat (or to NOT eat) according to our needs, that is a constant factor in our health and daily life.

And really, who’s ‘we’ here, kemosabe? ‘We’ know what health and disease are? Oh really, do YOU? Please tell us, oh learned one. Just how do you quantify these mysterious things? Here’s a protip - no one is in ‘perfect’ health. No one.

And when things occur in nature, they are, in fact, natural. From there, we get to decide if they are socially acceptable. As to unhealthy, well shoot, I’d think you’d be far more riled up over preschools and other such communicable germ-traps. You, apparently, don’t think gays, lesbians, and bisexuals are socially acceptable, whether or not they’re Catholic. How do you feel about all people who aren’t Catholic? Acceptable socially, or should they be scourged and/or purged?

And ahem, Mirdath, I like the bitemarks!

 

[fix]

Actually, I’m quite underweight. But I don’t seem to be really able to gain to the point of not being there anymore, so for me, ‘healthy’ is about where I’m at now.

How do you know you are healthy if there is no objective standard?

Heterosexual vaginal sex isn’t all that ‘healthy’ either. It upsets the pH balance in the vagina, can lead to yeast infections, sexually transmitted diseases, friction pain, and embarrassing hickeys. Even the first time often involves pain and blood for the woman. Is the hymen then a defect?

Ah, so we do know the difference between health and pathology. Now, we are getting somewhere.

 

[fix]

Ahem, okay…no, fix we do NOT ‘objectively know’ what ‘health’ is, or even ‘normality’ as such.

We don’t? So, if a child is born blind that is health? I mean for that child it is healthy to be blind? Who else is buying that?

There are averages and figures, but they’re all shot full of exceptions. Mirdath’s a stickfigure, though I do my best to lay down the chubby hoodoo with my cookery skills. And then there’s age - Mirdath’s young, half my age, so our metabolisms differ greatly, and while we both tend to want to eat (or to NOT eat) according to our needs, that is a constant factor in our health and daily life.

That does not prove there is no objective measure. It proves there is an objective measure. I guess we ought to close all the hospitals as no one knows what disease is anymore?

And really, who’s ‘we’ here, kemosabe? ‘We’ know what health and disease are? Oh really, do YOU? Please tell us, oh learned one. Just how do you quantify these mysterious things? Here’s a protip - no one is in ‘perfect’ health. No one.

All those pathology texts and journals need to be taught a good lesson. You should educate them.

And when things occur in nature, they are, in fact, natural.

Yes, syndactly is natural. That means it is healthy and normal? Ok?

From there, we get to decide if they are socially acceptable. As to unhealthy, well shoot, I’d think you’d be far more riled up over preschools and other such communicable germ-traps. You, apparently, don’t think gays, lesbians, and bisexuals are socially acceptable, whether or not they’re Catholic. How do you feel about all people who aren’t Catholic? Acceptable socially, or should they be scourged and/or purged?

Hyperbole? Please point out any post of mine that would support your accusations.

 

[Nepenthe]

Actually, ‘we’ don’t, fix. Really it comes down to the old joke much of the time - ‘Doctor, it hurts when I do this!’ ‘So don’t do that already, that’ll be 50 dollars…NEXT!’

Also, uh…‘WE’ know the difference between health and pathology? I don’t think you really know how to use the term properly. And I’m not being insulting there, just that patho is a huge, deep and very technical subject. I know very well that I’m largely out of my depth there and I expect you are entirely so. We all have our areas of expertise, and this one ain’t ours, okay?

Oh wait…natural = healthy = normal? Normal? Again, I don’t think you understand your own words. Ah well. Remember, HPV (human papillomavirus, ie genital warts) is present in the majority of US citizens over the age of 16. Does that make it healthy? Nope, not very, not at all - especially since some strains cause dysplasia and cervical cancer. But is it normal? well…yes, at this point, it sure is. And natural? Oh yes, it is very natural, as natural as anything there is. You need to think before you speak.

 

[fix]

Actually, ‘we’ don’t, fix. Really it comes down to the old joke much of the time - ‘Doctor, it hurts when I do this!’ ‘So don’t do that already, that’ll be 50 dollars…NEXT!’

You are joking? Your position is nonsensical.

Also, uh…‘WE’ know the difference between health and pathology? I don’t think you really know how to use the term properly.

What is that assertion based on? You think I do not know what health or pathology is? Offer proof.

And I’m not being insulting there, just that patho is a huge, deep and very technical subject. I know very well that I’m largely out of my depth there and I expect you are entirely so. We all have our areas of expertise, and this one ain’t ours, okay?

No, not ok. I will agree you are out of your depth though.

 

[Nepenthe]

No, fix. My position isn’t nonsensical at all.

And you may be as aggressive as you wish, but it still doesn’t make you sound like you know bupkes. No, I don’t think you know what health or pathology are. Burden of proof is on you, if you wish to assert that you do, in fact, know what you’re rabbiting on about. But I’d bet your last dollar that you don’t, and not even wikipedia can help you fake it.

 

[estesbob]

Safe bet.



Butbutbut… straight penguins aren’t married either! They’re cohabitating and fornicating!

Bob, do you remember the Bloom County sequence on ‘penguin lust’?

I dont even know what bloom country is. !

Heterosexual vaginal sex isn’t all that ‘healthy’ either. It upsets the pH balance in the vagina, can lead to yeast infections, sexually transmitted diseases, friction pain, and embarrassing hickeys. Even the first time often involves pain and blood for the woman. Is the hymen then a defect?

Yes this OCCASIONALLY happens with heterosexual sex BUT it is common for those who enage in anal sex.

 

[fix]

No, fix. My position isn’t nonsensical at all.

And you may be as aggressive as you wish, but it still doesn’t make you sound like you know bupkes. No, I don’t think you know what health or pathology are. Burden of proof is on you, if you wish to assert that you do, in fact, know what you’re rabbiting on about. But I’d bet your last dollar that you don’t, and not even wikipedia can help you fake it.

In 2007 I find it amazing, and distressing, someone actually questions health and disease. They ask me for a definition. I can easily paste a definition as anyone else reading this could paste one, but why? Why is the obvious needed to be posted?

The dancing is being done by you and friend Mirdath. We all know what disease is. I offered one good example of the blind child. Is that health? Syndactly, healthy?