Question on Islam.

[LtTony]

i think that my answer was clear , we believe that God sent the other prophets for specefic nations and specific time
it was a plan from God to send specefic prophets to specific nations , only mohammed (pbuh) according to our beliefs was sent as a final prophet for all mankind

it wasn’t necessery to protect early scriptures for a next generations if it was in his plan to send other prophets for them

God have the ability to do whatever he want , but it was his plan to sent Mohammed as a final prophet and save his massage from the corruption .
f he wanted to make mohammed (pbuh) not exist , it’s easy for him
and if he wanted to reserve the revelation of jesus (pbuh) , it’s easy for him
and if he wanted for all of people to be rightious believers to him without sending any prophet at all , it 's easy for him

so , i will not argue why he choose this plan for us , i can just argue to prove my beliefs by telling facts

i can’t argue the reasons of God to let bible corrupted , i can proof directly that’s it’s corrupted

arguing about why God reserved the quran isn’t more important than arguing proofs of it

Yet he chose to allow his revelation to these “specific nations” to be corrupted? Why? What’s the use? God giving out messages and refusing to protect them? Did he desire that people be mislead? Was he not interested that people should know the truth? If he had no such interest to have the people know the truth, then why bother with sending the revelation at all? If Moh’d was planned to be the last one for all mankind, why did the previous messages have to be corrupted? Indeed preserving them would allow all the “the people of the the book” to recognize Moh’d and his prophet-hood when he came, and accept the last revelation, no?
Why then not the same for the Qur’an? After all, there’s nothing stopping God from sending more prophets if Muslims corrupt the message. :shrug:Was God not interested that all the people to whom he gave a revelation had access to the truth? Why allow others to be corrupted and many people to read false messages until another prophet came? It seems Islam’s whole logic for prophet-hood depends on corrupting revelations, so that the purpose of a prophet-hood is not to give truths to people that they might otherwise not know, but to just correct previously corrupted messages- not only that, you correct previously corrupted messages fully expecting your “correction” to also be corrupted and to need a later correction from another prophet-hood- a merry-go-round. It makes no sense! God does not engage in futility or redundancy.

If the revelation is his work, he will protect it as he does every other work of his. If it gets corrupted, then Satan has triumphed over the work of God himself, corrupting his words and his truth!- No way! Would be another thing if you told us that satan convinced people to reject the truth of God, to teach false things about it, but to actually change the work of God himself from heaven such that the work of God is actually lost and replaced by a corruption of men? No way- That’s the work of humanity not the work of God like “revelation” is.

"it wasn’t necessery to protect early scriptures for a next generations if it was in his plan to send other prophets for them "

Wasn’t necessary? Then generations of people get misled. Islam might not have an explanation for it or Mohammad might not want to, but the premise creates a very deceitful God.

“God have the ability to do whatever he want”

Yes. We’ve been telling that to muslims for a long time: God can do anything He wants. Like become man.

"so , i will not argue why he choose this plan for us , i can just argue to prove my beliefs by telling facts "

You’re entitled to your beliefs. But you can’t “prove” anything. You “facts” are mere opinion.

I think you should read mary’s reply closely, elwil.

 

[nevadairenaeus]

And that last sentence is wrong. The bolded bit is the problem here, as Islam takes 'Isa or Jesus to be a human prophet only, and NOT the Son of God. Nothing that Muhammad (saw) said or did is in contradiction to what Jesus really taught (and not the corrupted Bible that Christians still insist on teaching as ‘truth’) in the Injil.

How do you know what Jesus really taught? From what you read in the Quran which was composed 6 centuries after Jesus lived? The earliest existing texts about Jesus (Paul’s letters, the Gospels, early Christian writers like Ignatius of Antioch) all teach that Jesus was more than a prophet, that he was the son of God. They all talk about Jesus as if he was divine. The divine nature of Jesus is not some late development in Christianity. (see ‘Lord Jesus Christ: Devotion to Jesus in Earliest Christianity’ by Larry Hurtado for more on this topic)

 

[jakasaki]

As the Christian Monk said to the Muslim in the 12th century dialogue :

"Do not say something you can’t prove, because, in the end, you will be ashamed, like that one who prefers to cover the sunlight.

Let us suppose that some people in the
West had altered their Gospels. So, how did they reach
those who are at the end of the earth in the East? Same
thing for those who are in the North towards the South.
It’s impossible. If that was possible you were, then,
founding the apocryphal Gospels with a part of
Christians. While if you pay for a trip over the whole
world, you will find the Gospels in various languages
analogous to those received from the Apostles of our
Lord the Christ. No difference between any of them,
even in one letter, except the particular traits of each
language. I, hereby, give you an example which lets you
believe me: If someone comes and shows a Koran
different from that known to you now, and says, " this is
the Koran inspired by the Prophet," while it is not, will
you accept it?"

I doubt you will accept it. In the same logic, why would the early Christians accept a false gospel knowing that what they had was the truth?


I ask 6 simple questions :

1. Who corrupted the Bible?
2. When was it corrupted?
3. Why was it corrupted?
4. Where was it corrupted?
5. How did the corrupters of the Bible manage to get the early christians to leave their true gospel, (which they knew was true) which stated Jesus was a mere prophet, for a false gospel which has Jesus claiming to be the Son of God (Mark 14:60-62) ?
6. Were the early christians so naive as to not realize how this new gospel(which teaches Jesus’ divinity) taught contradictory doctrines to those which they received from the Apostles?

Your link does not work…

 

[Kouyate42]

How do you know what Jesus really taught? From what you read in the Quran which was composed 6 centuries after Jesus lived? The earliest existing texts about Jesus (Paul’s letters, the Gospels, early Christian writers like Ignatius of Antioch) all teach that Jesus was more than a prophet, that he was the son of God. They all talk about Jesus as if he was divine. The divine nature of Jesus is not some late development in Christianity. (see ‘Lord Jesus Christ: Devotion to Jesus in Earliest Christianity’ by Larry Hurtado for more on this topic)

Problem was that even a basic reading of the Christian Gospels throws up MASSIVE problems with trying to advance the theory of Christ’s divinity. I’m making a thread on this topic when I get the time.

God is human and Divine. Jesus Christ was human and divine. Tell me how is sin taken away?

One of the names of Allah is ‘Al-Ghaffar’ which means ‘The AllForgiving’. Simple answer is that if I sin, I then pray to Allah and Allah ALONE who is more than willing to remove all sin for sincere repentance. I don’t need a middleman.

Plus, it is a grave insult to One who is removed from physical activity such as reproduction of a son to then claim He has a son.

How can you enter heaven by a human prophet who commited the sin of adultery. Had sex with a 9 year old child. Taught the world to hate others who are different from you. Taught the world to beat their wives.

Wrong, wrong and wrong again.

I know you reject Christ as God. But just because you reject Christ as God does not make it so.

I reject Christ based on HIS words and the TRUE words of God, the Qur’an. 'Isa tells me that I must worship God alone. That is PRECISELY what I do, every day, 5 times a day.

Do you agree that it is okay to have sex with a nine year old child? You must accept this teaching correct? Because if you accept every single word that he taught and action he
did, being from God you have to be okay with it right?

Cheap shot. A’isha was likely around the age of 15 or so when she married.

How me ONE sin that was commited by Jesus. Just one. You can’t because they could not even find one thing at his trial! Simply because he was telling the truth.

You’re using the very text I reject to try and make a point. Plus, what has this got to do with anything?

 

[nevadairenaeus]

Christianity is not just a religion of a book. It’s not just based on the written word. It is the religion of the Word made flesh, of the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus did not leave us a book, he left us a living Church that would preserve his teachings and make Jesus always present for us. Heretics always claim that the scriptures are corrupted (I’m a former Mormon so I am very familiar with this line of thinking). In contrast, Christians do not accuse the Hebrew scriptures of being corrupt and in need of restoration. We accept them as the revelation of God and as sacred scripture.

Jesus comes out of the Jewish people and the Jewish faith. There is continuity between him and the ancient prophets. Muhammad was not a Jew nor a Christian. There is no continuity between Islam and the Jewish prophets nor Jesus.

 

[jakasaki]

Asalaamu ‘aleikum wa rahmahtullah wa barukatah everyone! Just to let you know that at some point, I’m going to create a new thread on the subject of Jesus’ divinity, in keeping with the promise I made to discuss this.

Masr’ al-khayr!

Why create a new thread. The questions placed upon you are within this thread and require answers.

 

[Wandile]

As the Christian Monk said to the Muslim in the 12th century dialogue :

"Do not say something you can’t prove, because, in the end, you will be ashamed, like that one who prefers to cover the sunlight.

Let us suppose that some people in the
West had altered their Gospels. So, how did they reach
those who are at the end of the earth in the East? Same
thing for those who are in the North towards the South.
It’s impossible. If that was possible you were, then,
founding the apocryphal Gospels with a part of
Christians. While if you pay for a trip over the whole
world, you will find the Gospels in various languages
analogous to those received from the Apostles of our
Lord the Christ. No difference between any of them,
even in one letter, except the particular traits of each
language. I, hereby, give you an example which lets you
believe me: If someone comes and shows a Koran
different from that known to you now, and says, " this is
the Koran inspired by the Prophet," while it is not, will
you accept it?"

I doubt you will accept it. In the same logic, why would the early Christians accept a false gospel knowing that what they had was the truth?


I ask 6 simple questions :

1. Who corrupted the Bible?
2. When was it corrupted?
3. Why was it corrupted?
4. Where was it corrupted?
5. How did the corrupters of the Bible manage to get the early christians to leave their true gospel, (which they knew was true) which stated Jesus was a mere prophet, for a false gospel which has Jesus claiming to be the Son of God (Mark 14:60-62) ?
6. Were the early christians so naive as to not realize how this new gospel(which teaches Jesus’ divinity) taught contradictory doctrines to those which they received from the Apostles?

Your link does not work…

Sorry about that. Here is the proper link :
12th century dialogue

 

[Kouyate42]

1. Who corrupted the Bible?
2. When was it corrupted?
3. Why was it corrupted?
4. Where was it corrupted?
5. How did the corrupters of the Bible manage to get the early christians to leave their true gospel, (which they knew was true) which stated Jesus was a mere prophet, for a false gospel which has Jesus claiming to be the Son of God (Mark 14:60-62) ?
6. Were the early christians so naive as to not realize how this new gospel(which teaches Jesus’ divinity) taught contradictory doctrines to those which they received from the Apostles?

Simple answer to all of this: the Injil was corrupted by early followers of Christ himself. God allowed the duty of preservation of the various holy books to the believers of those holy books. Unfortunately these believers did not do this, being free to choose either to do as Allah commanded, or to commit a sin against Him. They chose to corrupt the Injil and Tawrat out of their own conscious decision to do so and for purely selfish reasons.

It’s the same with any sin or action. We are given the free choice between evil and good and can choose either of them. But regardless of what we choose, Allah’s will will always win and our actions will have no impact on this if our wishes clash with the will of Allah.

As to where, when and who precisely corrupted the Injil. I cannot tell you, partially as my time machine broke down this morning. That is something lost to history. But it doesn’t really matter to be fair. All that matters is that the Injil DID become corrupted and people were led to false worship and shirk.

As to why the Qur’an did not become corrupt, the simple answer is that Muslims have such taqwa (fear and love of God) that they dare not change a single letter of the Qur’an, and indeed there are many Muslims who could recite to you the entire Qur’an from start to finish, letter perfect.

 

[Kouyate42]

My immediate question is whether these textual differences are merely differences of either a word’s usage or spelling, or whether we’re talking about whole new passages.

 

[Wandile]

Problem was that even a basic reading of the Christian Gospels throws up MASSIVE problems with trying to advance the theory of Christ’s divinity. I’m making a thread on this topic when I get the time.

Please just provide your evidence here? I’m really intrigued to see how a mere muslim can discern all this from the Gospels yet all the doctors and scholars of the Church over the course of 2000 years could not see this

One of the names of Allah is ‘Al-Ghaffar’ which means ‘The AllForgiving’. Simple answer is that if I sin, I then pray to Allah and Allah ALONE who is more than willing to remove all sin for sincere repentance. I don’t need a middleman.

Well Christianity teaches the same thing. We pray to God and God forgives us. Remember Jesus too, is God

Plus, it is a grave insult to One who is removed from physical activity such as reproduction of a son to then claim He has a son.

Its a grave insult based on your own flawed standards. How dare you judge God!.You are but a mere human being! Repent now please!?!?!?

Secondly the God of Christianity never claimed that His Son is a product of reproduction, genius. The Son is eternal. Meaning he was never reproduced or had a start. He has always been there as the eternal Word of God.

I reject Christ based on HIS words and the TRUE words of God, the Qur’an. 'Isa tells me that I must worship God alone. That is PRECISELY what I do, every day, 5 times a day.

This is intellectually absurd as Christ said to accept Him, not reject Him (John 3:16).

Jesus also taught that He is God so I think you should be worshipping Him buddy.

You’re using the very text I reject to try and make a point. Plus, what has this got to
do with anything?

How do you know what Jesus really taught? (Without using circular reasoning please)

 

[Wandile]

Simple answer to all of this: the Injil was corrupted by early followers of Christ himself. God allowed the duty of preservation of the various holy books to the believers of those holy books. Unfortunately these believers did not do this, being free to choose either to do as Allah commanded, or to commit a sin against Him. They chose to corrupt the Injil and Tawrat out of their own conscious decision to do so and for purely selfish reasons.

Do you have any Manuscript evidence to prove your claims? Secondly where is your historical evidence to back up your claims that the early christians corrupted the text?

It’s the same with any sin or action. We are given the free choice between evil and good and can choose either of them. But regardless of what we choose, Allah’s will will always win and our actions will have no impact on this if our wishes clash with the will of Allah.

Cool story bro. You still haven’t proven anything. Claiming something is not the same as proving it

As to where, when and who precisely corrupted the Injil. I cannot tell you, partially as my time machine broke down this morning. That is something lost to history. But it doesn’t really matter to be fair. All that matters is that the Injil DID become corrupted and people were led to false worship and shirk.

You can’t conclusively claim it got corrupted without PROVING anything. WHERE IS YOUR PROOF??

As to why the Qur’an did not become corrupt, the simple answer is that Muslims have such taqwa (fear and love of God) that they dare not change a single letter of the Qur’an, and indeed there are many Muslims who could recite to you the entire Qur’an from stþart to finish, letter perfect.

This is pathetic and does not qualify as an argument. It is simply your opinion.

Just so you know : it is scholarly approved that the Bible is the most well preserved document of the ancient world. Clearly christians and jews love their scriptures more as we have manuscript evidence to prove our scriptures’ authenticity

By the way, you still haven’t answered question 6

 

[exoflare]

(Without using circular reasoning please)

haraam!!

 

[dolphinlove]

Cheap shot. A’isha was likely around the age of 15 or so when she married.

As you put it wrong wrong and wrong

Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was **six years old **and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). (Sahih Bukhari 7.88)

 

[jakasaki]

As you put it wrong wrong and wrong

Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was **six years old **and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). (Sahih Bukhari 7.88)

 

[Kouyate42]

As you put it wrong wrong and wrong

Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was **six years old **and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). (Sahih Bukhari 7.88)

Sigh, you understand little of the science of hadith.

Historic hadiths such as this one were not subject to the same careful strict scrutiny as the hadith concerning matters of Islamic law. There are varying hadith on this subject of Aisha’s age.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

As you put it wrong wrong and wrong

Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was **six years old **and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). (Sahih Bukhari 7.88)

inthenameofallah.org/Muhammad%20the%20Child%20Molester.html

Those verses also prove that he did her when she was nine.

That is disgusting.

 

[jakasaki]

Sigh, you understand little of the science of hadith.

Historic hadiths such as this one were not subject to the same careful strict scrutiny as the hadith concerning matters of Islamic law. There are varying hadith on this subject of Aisha’s age.

Sahih Bukhari is a collection of sayings and deeds of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), also known as the sunnah.

The reports of the Prophet’s sayings and deeds are called ahadith. Bukhari lived a couple of centuries after the Prophet’s death and worked extremely hard to collect his ahadith.

Each report in his collection was checked for compatibility with the Qur’an, and the veracity of the chain of reporters had to be painstakingly established.

Bukhari’s collection is recognized by the overwhelming majority of the Muslim world to be one of the most authentic collections of the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh).

Bukhari (full name Abu Abdullah Muhammad bin Ismail bin Ibrahim bin al-Mughira al-Ja’fai) was born in 194 A.H. and died in 256 A.H. His collection of hadith is considered second to none.

He spent sixteen years compiling it, and ended up with 2,602 hadith (9,082 with repetition). His criteria for acceptance into the collection were amongst the most stringent of all the scholars of ahadith.

 

[Kouyate42]

Some articles on the age of Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her)

muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm
discoveringislam.org/aisha_age.htm
muslim-responses.com/Marriage_with_Aisha/Marriage_with_Aisha_
answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm

Plus, I will ask you this: what is the problem with the idea that a 9 year old could be married? It was more than common even up until recent history that children married young, often being promised in marriage at the age of 4 or 5.
You have to remember that historically girls married MUCH younger than now, as there was often no law of consent. Aisha in particular was given by her parents to Muhammad (pbuh) quite legally and was more than happy to enter the marriage.

You might also want to read your own Bible again. It was more than legal for the Israelites, the supposedly chosen people, to capture, own and even sleep with virgin girls, According to Talmudic sources, some of these were probably somewhere around the age of 3 or 4.

Also, according to what my old church taught, Mary herself was married at the age of 12 or 13, which by modern standards was young. In fact, this places her below the age of consent in many countries.

Plus, let’s look at the biology of this shall we? A girl can easily begin a period at the age of 8. There have been numerous cases where young girls have not just married but have given birth at this age.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Some articles on the age of Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her)

muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm
discoveringislam.org/aisha_age.htm
muslim-responses.com/Marriage_with_Aisha/Marriage_with_Aisha_
answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm

Plus, I will ask you this: what is the problem with the idea that a 9 year old could be married? It was more than common even up until recent history that children married young, often being promised in marriage at the age of 4 or 5.
You have to remember that historically girls married MUCH younger than now, as there was often no law of consent. Aisha in particular was given by her parents to Muhammad (pbuh) quite legally and was more than happy to enter the marriage.

You might also want to read your own Bible again. It was more than legal for the Israelites, the supposedly chosen people, to capture, own and even sleep with virgin girls, According to Talmudic sources, some of these were probably somewhere around the age of 3 or 4.

Also, according to what my old church taught, Mary herself was married at the age of 12 or 13, which by modern standards was young. In fact, this places her below the age of consent in many countries.

Plus, let’s look at the biology of this shall we? A girl can easily begin a period at the age of 8. There have been numerous cases where young girls have not just married but have given birth at this age.

Early puberty is a very recent development, and is not happening across entire cultures. In the US, it is mostly black American girls who are going into precociously early puberty.

I find it very troubling that you are defending a grown man marrying a girl of 6 and having sex with her at age 9.

 

[Kouyate42]

Early puberty is a very recent development, and is not happening across entire cultures. In the US, it is mostly black American girls who are going into precociously early puberty.

I find it very troubling that you are defending a grown man marrying a girl of 6 and having sex with her at age 9.

As the articles prove, there’s still a lot of discussion among 'aliim as to this matter. It’s not as simple as quoting a hadith and saying ‘well, there’s proof’.

And I can’t pick and choose the bits of my religion that suit me. All or nothing. But even then, I cannot see why my Prophet (saw) should be vilified when he was acting according to the laws and culture of his time, and acting in all good manner towards Aisha. This was a man who genuinely loved Aisha, played games with her, took her to festivals and entertainments, gave her bracelets and expensive necklaces and other possessions for her to keep, and even defended her honor when accusations of sexual impropriety/adultery were leveled against her.