Question on Islam.

[rinnie]

Actually it stated in the Qur’an that Islam is the ONLY religion accepted by Islam.

‘‘If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will he be accepted of God; and in the next life, he will be in the ranks of those who have lost themselves’’. (Qur’an 3:85)

Muhammad (saw) was sent only as a human prophet, but with a mission to bring all the world to Islam and the worship of the true God. Being a Muslim involves belief in Qur’an, but also emulation of the Prophet in behavior, worship and manner as he was the best example of humanity and a perfect example of true devotion to Allah.

And that last sentence is wrong. The bolded bit is the problem here, as Islam takes 'Isa or Jesus to be a human prophet only, and NOT the Son of God. Nothing that Muhammad (saw) said or did is in contradiction to what Jesus really taught (and not the corrupted Bible that Christians still insist on teaching as ‘truth’) in the Injil.

Yes it is. lets start right off the bat. Where did Jesus ever say that anyone who does not accept the religion of Islam will not be accepted by God.

You said it. Now show me proof.

 

[Faith1960]

Problem was that even a basic reading of the Christian Gospels throws up MASSIVE problems with trying to advance the theory of Christ’s divinity. I’m making a thread on this topic when I get the time.

One of the names of Allah is ‘Al-Ghaffar’ which means ‘The AllForgiving’. Simple answer is that if I sin, I then pray to Allah and Allah ALONE who is more than willing to remove all sin for sincere repentance. I don’t need a middleman.

Plus, it is a grave insult to One who is removed from physical activity such as reproduction of a son to then claim He has a son.

Wrong, wrong and wrong again.

I reject Christ based on HIS words and the TRUE words of God, the Qur’an. 'Isa tells me that I must worship God alone. That is PRECISELY what I do, every day, 5 times a day.

Cheap shot. A’isha was likely around the age of 15 or so when she married.

You’re using the very text I reject to try and make a point. Plus, what has this got to do with anything?

How can you sound so incredibly certain about Islam today when just a few weeks ago you were wanting to join the Catholic Church? I’m truly baffled.

 

[elwill]

Thousands of small variants, almost all of them having no effect on the meaning, but very significant since they show that there is not one text of the Quran that has been miraculously preserved from change over time

These variations were known in the classical Islamic age, but fell out of sight as Islamic scholarship declined, due to the Mongol invasion and the normal decline of any human institution. Jeffrey based himself largely on the Kitab al-Masahif of Ibn Abi Dawud, in the Zahiriya Library in Damascus. This is the only intact example of a number of books by Islamic scholars in the classical period who collected citations in the early Islamic literature from variant manuscripts. When the pre-Uthmanic Quran collections were order to be destroyed, many scholars concealed theirs and in any case remembered what was in them, and eventually some scholars, like Ibn Abi Dawud, systematized the study of the Quran variants.

i’m not sure from what you say , i know nothing but one quran . and i know that theire are 7 dialects were all teached in the existence of mohammed (pbuh) , and the seven dialects are known untill today

The most important of the early codices, differing from the Uthmanic version, are those of Ibn Mas’ud, Ubai b, Ka’b, Ali, Ibn Abbas, Abu Musa, Hafsa, Anas b. Malik, Umar, Zaid b. Thabit, Ibn az-Zubair, Ibn Amr, Aisha, Salim, Umm Salama, and Ubaid b. `Umair.

Not all the variants come from after the time of Muhammad. Some show the development of the text during the mission of Muhammad. For example, Sura 103 in Ali's version has two extra words in verse one, so it reads (**by the age** (asr), and the ups and downs of time (dahr), verse 2 is the same as the Uthmanic text (“verily man is at a loss.”

However verse three is completely different in meaning to the Uthmanic text. It says “and he remains in it to the end of time.” In the Uthmanic text verse three reads, “except those who believe and do good deeds and enjoin one another in what is right, and enjoin one another to be steadfast.”

thank you ,
well , i understood now what you are talking about , but with an information about some historical facts i can’t find any problems atall

Many Companions of the Prophet used to write down the revelation of the Qur’an on their own whenever they heard it from the lips of the Prophet. However what they wrote was not personally verified by the Prophet and thus could contain mistakes. All the verses revealed to the Prophet may not have been heard personally by all the Companions. There were high possibilities of different portions of the Qur’an being missed by different Companions.

Usman (r.a.) borrowed the original manuscript of the Qur’an, which was authorized by the beloved Prophet (pbuh), from Hafsha (may Allah be pleased with her), the Prophet’s wife. Usman (r.a.) ordered four Companions who were among the scribes who wrote the Qur’an when the Prophet dictated it, led by Zaid bin Thabit (r.a.) to rewrite the script in several perfect copies. These were sent by Usman (r.a.) to the main centres of Muslims.

There were other personal collections of the portions of the Qur’an that people had with them. These might have been incomplete and with mistakes. Usman (r.a.) only appealed to the people to destroy all these copies which did not match the original manuscript of the Qur’an in order to preserve the original text of the Qur’an. Two such copies of the copied text of the original Qur’an authenticated by the Prophet are present to this day, one at the museum in Tashkent in erstwhile Soviet Union and the other at the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul, Turkey.

An assertion is not an argument. What actually happened is that you based yourself on a translation, without checking the original.

arabic is my national tonque and my first language , what about you ?

Verse 79 gives us a typical example of the variant versions. Ibn Mas’ud (who died about the year 33 of the Islamic calendar, so his is a very early collection) begins the verse with Ma rather than La. They are both negatives, preceding the verb, and the meaning is not affected. But we have no way of knowing which is the one Muhammad used, or whether he sometimes said one and sometimes the other. In the same verse, Ibn Mas’ud and Aban b. Taghlib have a variant spelling of “the pure”, al-mutaTahhiruna. Such variants put paid to any idea of adding up the numerical value of the letters and discovering a secret code.

but i have a way of knowing which word mohammed (pbuh) used
firstly , the vesion of othman was produced by a team of four scribes whom were companions for the prophet beside one original version were written and approved by the prophet pbuh , it was with the prophet’s wife " Hafsah "

secondly , Zaid is reported to have said, "I saw the companions of Muhammad (going about) saying, “By Allah, Uthman has done well! By Allah, Uthman has done well!” [Nisaburi]
Ibn Abi Dawud records Musab ibn Sad ibn Abi Waqqas to have testified: “I saw the people assemble in large number at Uthman’s burning of the proscribed copies; not a one spoke out against him.” Ali commented, “If I were in command in place of Uthman, I would have done the same.” [Zarkashi]
Almost every companion of the Prophet (pbuh) clealy approved the action of Uthman (ra) .

so the procedure of producing the othmanic version of quran is more authentic to any one , beside no narrations are found about disputes between bin masoad and the version which produced by othman

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

Bukhari’s collection is recognized by the overwhelming majority of the Muslim world to be one of the most authentic collections of the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh).

True - and it contains contradictory accounts of the age of Aisha at the time of marriage. Here’s one of them:

Sahih Bukhari:

Narrated ‘Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) I had seen my
parents following Islam since I attained the age of puberty. Not a day
passed but the Prophet visited us, both in the mornings and evenings.
My father Abu Bakr thought of building a mosque in the courtyard of
his house and he did so. He used to pray and recite the Qur’an in it.
The pagan women and their children used to stand by him and look at
him with surprise. Abu Bakr was a Softhearted person and could not
help weeping while reciting the Quran. The chiefs of the Quraish
pagans [this implies: in Mecca] became afraid of that (i.e. that their
children and women might be affected by the recitation of Quran)."

This would mean that Aisha was past the age of puberty in 622, the year of hijra, and she is supposed to have married Muhammad in the same year.

There are no accounts of when or if the marriage was consummated. All we know is that they had no children.

Sen

 

[Kouyate42]

Yes it is. lets start right off the bat. Where did Jesus ever say that anyone who does not accept the religion of Islam will not be accepted by God.

You said it. Now show me proof.

I quoted the Qur’anic verse which makes it very clear that Islam is the only religion that is accepted in the eyes of Allah. It doesn’t matter WHO said it.

I’m going to be creating a seperate thread on why I believe Jesus to not be divine, but also that he was a Muslim and preached Islam.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

Many Companions of the Prophet used to write down the revelation of the Qur’an on their own whenever they heard it from the lips of the Prophet. However what they wrote was not personally verified by the Prophet and thus could contain mistakes.

But the Prophet was dead when Uthman did his work. Therefore, the Quran of Uthman may contain mistakes. And omissions, because by the time it was collected, quite a number of the companions were dead, so no doubt some material was lost. However, given that at least two memories were required of a verse before it was included, it’s likely that there are no additions to the text. That distinguishes it from the New Testament, where there have been some additions, generally removed or bracketed in modern Bibles, and questions about the inclusion of some books.

Usman (r.a.) borrowed the original manuscript of the Qur’an, which was authorized by the beloved Prophet (pbuh), from Hafsha … the Prophet’s wife. Usman (r.a.) ordered four Companions who were among the scribes who wrote the Qur’an when the Prophet dictated it, led by Zaid bin Thabit (r.a.) to rewrite the script in several perfect copies. These were sent by Usman (r.a.) to the main centres of Muslims.

… Two such copies of the copied text of the original Qur’an authenticated by the Prophet are present … at the museum in Tashkent … and … Topkapi Museum.

Internet myths. The manuscript in the Topkapi Museum is Umayyad, not even Abassid, in origin. The Tashkent manuscript is incomplete and is written in a practiced kufic hand, so it’s not very early. If both were made by the same scribes, they would have the same script.

The really interesting manuscript is the palimpest of Sana’a, which shows us what the very early script looked like. There’s been a study of this published in the last month:
tinyurl.com/2012SanaaStudy
and I think it would be wise to wait until that reaches the libraries. Previous studies have indicated that the palimpest may be pre-uthmanic, i.e., that it does not match the Uthmanic text entirely.

arabic is my national tonque and my first language , what about you ?

I studied Arabic and Persian in the context of a degree in Islamic studies.

one original version were written and approved by the prophet pbuh , it was with the prophet’s wife " Hafsah "

If that were so, Abu Bakr would not have needed to collect the materials for the Quran. The process began then, 20 years before Uthman made his version. It was a copy of Abu Bakr’s version that ended up with Hafsah. Uthman fixed the order of the Surahs and had the whole copied and sent to major centres of the empire, and perhaps made changes to the text. As for the state of the collection before Abu Bakr ordered it collected, Zaid ibn Thabit is reported to have said:

"...I started locating the Qur'anic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leafstalks of date palms and from the memories of men.[al-Bukhari, 6:60:201]

and

"So I started looking for the Holy quran and collected it from (what was written on) palm-leaf stalks, thin white stones, and also from men who knew it by heart, till I found the last verse of Surat at-Tauba with Abi Khuzaima al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. (al-Bukhari, 6, p.478).

In short, the collection and textual authenticity of the Quran is clearer and less problematic than the collection of the New Testament, and vastly clearer than the process by which the Old Testament books were written and edited and collected, but it is still done over a period, by fallible people. And as with the bible, in later history there were many mistakes made as the text was copied by scribes in different cities but - as with the Bible - these can be detected and corrected because a mistake made by a scribe in one place would not be made by scribes in other cities. These mistakes have largely been eliminated by the Egyptian edition of the Quran and in modern bibles, but there were many centuries in which Bibles and Qurans with many simple scribal errors were used by the faithful. So we know that God did not prevent changes in either the Bible or the Quran. To proclaim something that did not happen, as a miraculous proof of Islam, simply makes Islam the target of scoffing. The miracle of the Quran is the Quran, and not what some people have imagined.

As I pointed out in posting #152, the context of revelation of Quran 4.45 shows that “corruption” refers to the interpretations and decisions of the religious scholars, for the text of the Torah had not been changed (the Rabbi Ibn Suriya still knew that it decreed death by stoning for adultery), but the Jewish divines had decided not to apply it, and as a result, the illiterate people no longer knew what the Torah ruling was, so they objected to what Muhammad said. Those two things together – the rulings of religious scholars, and the people relying on the religious scholars rather than reading the text for themselves and thinking for themselves – lead to the corruption of the message, and it applies in Islam as much as in any other religion.

 

[rinnie]

I quoted the Qur’anic verse which makes it very clear that Islam is the only religion that is accepted in the eyes of Allah. It doesn’t matter WHO said it.

I’m going to be creating a seperate thread on why I believe Jesus to not be divine, but also that he was a Muslim and preached Islam.

But that is not the question I asked. I asked you please show me one sin that Christ ever committed. Just one. Is it because you cannot do so?

Jesus was not Muslim and never preached Islam the Religion you follow. If Christ preached what you believe then it would be in the word of God spoken by the Apostles,

Why would Christ teach and preach Islam, tell the Apostles to preach and teach what has been given to them, and then 600 years later contradict his word. You have to do better then that.

If Christ preached Islam as you claim he would have written that he was sending another prophet. It is not what Christ taught at all. But what he did teach is anyone who turns you from his word is indeed not a prophet but is a false prophet.

The only thing Islam and Christianity have in common is about 2 things. We both profess the faith of Abraham and together pray to the One true God. Thats pretty much about it.

Read what John Paul ll said about your religion and ours. He knows. he was there, and met with your people.

 

[rinnie]

Early puberty is a very recent development, and is not happening across entire cultures. In the US, it is mostly black American girls who are going into precociously early puberty.

I find it very troubling that you are defending a grown man marrying a girl of 6 and having sex with her at age 9.

But it is really simple isn’t it. As Christ taught us, you either accept sin, or you reject sin.

If you reject sin, you must reject muhammad and all of his false teachings.

If you accept sin, you accept what he did.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

But it is really simple isn’t it. As Christ taught us, you either accept sin, or you reject sin.

If you reject sin, you must reject muhammad and all of his false teachings.

If you accept sin, you accept what he did.

Yes, and you will find a way to justify sin no matter what. I find it sad that Kouyate42 keeps turning away from the truth and toward this false religion, and can endlessly argue on the behalf of Mohammed but rejects Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

 

[rinnie]

As Wafa Lultan puts it who discribes herself as a Muslim but does not follow Islam.

The Problem with Christians is they aren’t as Good as Jesus.

But thank God (most) Muslims are better then Muhammad!

 

[rinnie]

Yes, and you will find a way to justify sin no matter what. I find it sad that Kouyate42 keeps turning away from the truth and toward this false religion, and can endlessly argue on the behalf of Mohammed but rejects Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

It is sad. All we can do is pray.

It is sad how he tries to defend the actions of having sex with a child.

Luke 17:1-2 He said to his disciples Causes of falling are sure to come. but alas for the one through when they occur. It would BE BETTER for HIM to be thrown into the sea with a MILLSTONE round his NECK then to be the downfall of a SINGLE ONE of these Little Ones. Keep watch on yourselves!!!

How someone can again condone the works of evil over the works of good in beyond me. But as Christ said they are better off dead.

 

[hamba2han]

Yes it is. lets start right off the bat. Where did Jesus ever say that anyone who does not accept the religion of Islam will not be accepted by God.

You said it. Now show me proof.

As I have posted earlier in this thread:

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. … (Matthew 7:21)

Jesus Christ (pbuh) is saying that those who will enter heaven are “only the one who does the will of my Father”.

There is an Arabic word to describe submitting oneself to the will of God Almighty… and that word is ‘Islam’.

And in Arabic, someone who does Islam is called a ‘mu-Islam’ → Muslim.

Jesus Christ (pbuh) is saying in Matthew 7:21 that only true Muslims will enter the kingdom of Heaven… and this of course would certainly imply that any religion which does not teach it’s followers to submit themselves to the will of their Lord and Creator will not be accepted by God Almighty.

 

[hamba2han]

A fairly good indicator of the sincerity of Christians who really want to strive to do the will of their Lord and Creator might be seen in how earnest they would regularly and faithfully follow Jesus Christ (pbuh) and his disciples in just about the most profound way possible:

Matthew 17:6 "And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid."

Matthew 26:39 "And he (Jesus) went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[jakasaki]

A fairly good indicator of the sincerity of Christians who really want to strive to do the will of their Lord and Creator might be seen in how earnest they would regularly and faithfully follow Jesus Christ (pbuh) and his disciples in just about the most profound way possible:

Matthew 17:6 "And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid."

Matthew 26:39 "And he (Jesus) went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc49/hamba2han/Sajda.jpg?t=1230666024

OK - I’ll bite on this one.

So, the disciples “fell on their face”… and
Jesus “fell on his face”

So we have 2 verses in the Bible showing “fell on face”…

And a picture of a muslim bowing his forehead down to the ground is supposed to resemble the same act…???

Hamba, this is not the same thing as with the muslim salat.

The disciples & Jesus were not doing a salat.

Period.

There are many and when I say many… I mean many Christians to this day to still bow when praying with their faces on the ground. Many…!!!

 

[jakasaki]

Oh yes indeed.

I too remember that and ever since you brought it up to his attention, he hasn’t used it again…!!!

 

[hamba2han]

OK - I’ll bite on this one.

So, the disciples “fell on their face”… and
Jesus “fell on his face”

So we have 2 verses in the Bible showing “fell on face”…

And a picture of a muslim bowing his forehead down to the ground is supposed to resemble the same act…???

Hamba, this is not the same thing as with the muslim salat.

The disciples & Jesus were not doing a salat.

Period.

There are many and when I say many… I mean many Christians to this day to still bow when praying with their faces on the ground. Many…!!!

You need to examine this verse again:

"And he (Jesus) went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as Thou wilt." … (Matthew 26:39)

This is really a theme that is common in everything that Jesus Christ (pbuh) did i.e. not as his will but that of the will of his Lord.

The way that he prayed and the number of times that he prayed is also of course not as his own will but rather, in accordance with the will of his Lord.

By comparison, are these people praying according to the will of their Lord and Creator?

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholic_idolaters.jpghttp://ts4.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=5000214360492855&id=69c99f45870e708b03d01f32c9f41c3c&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.remnantofgod.org%2Fimages%2Fpopebow.jpghttp://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4550277869994757&id=16e67e25d5d583603532b7b7c0d0c31a&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.onewayofjesus.com%2Fuploads%2F2%2F8%2F8%2F7%2F2887265%2F717124.jpg%3F333

Are they likely to be among those who will enter the kingdom of Heaven as explained by Jesus Christ (pbuh) in Matthew 7:21?

 

[Kouyate42]

As I have posted earlier in this thread:

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. … (Matthew 7:21)

Jesus Christ (pbuh) is saying that those who will enter heaven are "only the one who does the will of my Father".

There is an Arabic word to describe submitting oneself to the will of God Almighty… and that word is ‘Islam’.

And in Arabic, someone who does Islam is called a ‘mu-Islam’ → Muslim.

Jesus Christ (pbuh) is saying in Matthew 7:21 that only true Muslims will enter the kingdom of Heaven… and this of course would certainly imply that any religion which does not teach it’s followers to submit themselves to the will of their Lord and Creator will not be accepted by God Almighty.

This is what I’ve been trying to tell people. Jesus submitted himself to God much like ANY other Muslim. He made sujud and prayed. There are plenty of examples of this in the Bible where the people have prostrated themselves before God and prayed to Him and Him alone.

Also, I seem to remember that prostration (sujud), bowing (ruku) and bending of the knees all feature in modern Orthodox Jewish worship and in Orthodox Christianity.

 

[Kouyate42]

Hey, hamba2han is banned…

 

[Kouyate42]

Except this is the problem. Catholicism teaches many ideas which run very much contrary to the Qur’an and to the REAL teachings of Allah.

 

[Marybeloved]

This is what I’ve been trying to tell people. Jesus submitted himself to God much like ANY other Muslim. He made sujud and prayed. There are plenty of examples of this in the Bible where the people have prostrated themselves before God and prayed to Him and Him alone.

Also, I seem to remember that prostration (sujud), bowing (ruku) and bending of the knees all feature in modern Orthodox Jewish worship and in Orthodox Christianity.

But you’ve been trying to say a lot of things to people without proof- Are we just supposed to believe you? Your Qur’an has not even passed the test of whether it’s anything more than the product of Muhammad’s (and possibly others’) minds.