Question on IVF not answered

[ccpoisonivy]

Hi! I am so sorry that your fiance is battling cancer–I will keep you in my prayers! I truly understand the desire for biological children–there is no greater gift. If you decide to undergo IVF treatments I pray that you will be successful. I have 6-month old twins that we were blessed with after IVF. They are beautiful and truly are gifts from God! I consulted my priest before treatments and he was 100% supportive of our decision! Good luck to you and your future husband–I hope you will be as blessed as we have been!!

Wow!! I’m super surprised that your priest was supportive since it goes strictly against Catholic docterine. No priest I’ve met has been supportive of it at all…

Congratulations on your blessings, and thank you for the prayers.

 

[ccpoisonivy]

See, I have two different friends, one Catholic, married and they adopted, $10,000. The other, not Catholic, did IVF, also $10,000. That’s why I asked the question I did.

I think your friends who adopted aren’t the “norm” anymore. Mothers change their minds, foreign agencies have issues with getting children, there are any number of things that can (and do) go wrong with adoption that is very pricey. I know that IVF is VERY comparable in price and if you concieve on the first try, it is cheaper than adoption.

Not that price is a factor for me, but in situations like mine, where the female is fertile and the male has had this surgery, the IVF usually works quite well. I’ve done plenty of research both ways. I think that is the point that was trying to be made, not that price alone is a reason for doing either.

Thanks!

 

[user3856530]

Well, I’m in a different part of the world than you, and don’t think we’ll be able to go to the Czech Replubic for anything, let alone medical treatment.

What part of the world are you in? America, Australia?
The clinic we went to had people from all over the world. There are even agencies that arrange trips, sorting out accommodation etc. It still works out cheaper for a lot of people.

Our journey back was quite an event. It took us nearly three days non-stop travelling across land (via trains, taxis, coaches, even a cargo ship) because of the volcano in Iceland.

 

[PatriceA]

I think your friends who adopted aren’t the “norm” anymore. Mothers change their minds, foreign agencies have issues with getting children, there are any number of things that can (and do) go wrong with adoption that is very pricey. I know that IVF is VERY comparable in price and if you concieve on the first try, it is cheaper than adoption.

Not that price is a factor for me, but in situations like mine, where the female is fertile and the male has had this surgery, the IVF usually works quite well. I’ve done plenty of research both ways. I think that is the point that was trying to be made, not that price alone is a reason for doing either.

Thanks!

Both my friends’ experiences happened within the past two years, so I don’t know how its not the “norm”.

No, the point that was made in this whole thread was that IVF is not an option for a Catholic that is true to the teachings of the Catholic Church. Many people gave links to sources that support the point they were trying to make. IVF is not a viable option for Catholics.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

The spermatic tissue that will be taken out is the tissue that holds/produces the sperm. Not just sperm. I asked because they can regrow ears on mice now… I am praying for a similar Church approved way of either restoring fertility or creating Church approved help with infertile couples - either way, this tissue/sperm is necessary.

Thank you all for your prayers and help with this. I am seriously researching embryo adoption and, although we will not be “trying” for children for a while (either type of adoption), it is good to have the knowledge now for my own peace of mind.

If we are not called to have children, we will simply have more time to volunteer our time to help others.

Thank you again.

Do you mean freezing tissue for the future that would be reintroduced to your husband? I don’t thin that would be problematic…I’ve heard it done with ovaries.

Why not contact the National Catholic Bioethics Center

ncbcenter.org/NetCommunity/Page.aspx?pid=183

They might be able to answer better than we can.

 

[user3856530]

IVF is not a viable option for Catholics.

Can you not just go to confession afterwards?

 

[ALLGIRLS]

Can you not just go to confession afterwards?

Um, no. Sinning on purpose with the express intent of “just going to confession” afterwards, is another sin in itself. Remorse and repentence is required for a valid confession and to be absolved. And I mean being remorseful that you committed the sin b/c you know it was wrong, hurts God, and can send you to hell. (Not remorseful that the Church is opposed to it but you feel you have to do it anyway).

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[1ke]

I consulted my priest before treatments and he was 100% supportive of our decision!

How sad that your priest would encourage you to sin mortally.

 

[PatriceA]

Can you not just go to confession afterwards?

Would you commit murder with the notion that you can just go to confession afterwards? Would you steal from your neighbor if you could just go to confession afterwards? Would you commit adultry if you could just go to confession afterwards?

If you know a decision and the outcome goes against the teachings of the Catholic Church, why would you choose that decision as a Catholic? Its one thing to have made an uninformed decision, but this whole thread has been to provide the information that IVF is not a viable choice for Catholics. To advise a Catholic otherwise is sinful in itself.

 

[user3856530]

If you know a decision and the outcome goes against the teachings of the Catholic Church, why would you choose that decision as a Catholic? Its one thing to have made an uninformed decision, but this whole thread has been to provide the information that IVF is not a viable choice for Catholics. To advise a Catholic otherwise is sinful in itself.

Why do you need a whole thread?
Why not just put one post at the beginning saying that IVF is against Catholic doctrine.

It’s obviously so black and white. Regardless of circumstance.
Well if the Catholic church is going to make up such pragmatic rules, I can’t see any problem in abiding by them as one sees fit. It part of Catholic doctrine is forgiveness, then there’s the ‘get out clause’.

I got IVF done and I’m not sorry because I do not believe I sinned. So for me, I won’t be asking for ‘forgiveness’, but this option is certainly open for other Catholics. People really need to weigh it up. Are they going to forfeit the only chance they may get for having children? Remember that in 300 years time the Church may have changed it’s mind…

 

[1ke]

Why do you need a whole thread?
Why not just put one post at the beginning saying that IVF is against Catholic doctrine.

It’s obviously so black and white. Regardless of circumstance.

Yes, it is black and white. IVF is a grave sin against the sixth commandment.

Well if the Catholic church is going to make up such pragmatic rules, I can’t see any problem in abiding by them as one sees fit.

You misunderstand. The Church has not “made up” some “rules.” The Church communicates the truth of God’s moral law. The Church does not make things up, nor is it a “rule.” It is a moral truth.

It part of Catholic doctrine is forgiveness, then there’s the ‘get out clause’.

There is no such thing.

I got IVF done and I’m not sorry because I do not believe I sinned. So for me, I won’t be asking for ‘forgiveness’,

We will all be judged according to our knowledge and how we acted on that knowledge.

but this option is certainly open for other Catholics. People really need to weigh it up. Are they going to forfeit the only chance they may get for having children?

At the cost of their soul, I certainly hope so.

Remember that in 300 years time the Church may have changed it’s mind…

This again implies you believe the Church ‘makes up’ doctrines. These are eternal truths. This is the moral law of God. It cannot change. Ever.

 

[user3856530]

Yes, it is black and white. IVF is a grave sin against the sixth commandment

Please could you clarify?
Do you mean that IVF is the same as committing adultery?
So is it a sin if a spouse does all the lab work?

 

[PatriceA]

Why do you need a whole thread?
Why not just put one post at the beginning saying that IVF is against Catholic doctrine.

It’s obviously so black and white. Regardless of circumstance.
Well if the Catholic church is going to make up such pragmatic rules, I can’t see any problem in abiding by them as one sees fit. It part of Catholic doctrine is forgiveness, then there’s the ‘get out clause’.

I got IVF done and I’m not sorry because I do not believe I sinned. So for me, I won’t be asking for ‘forgiveness’, but this option is certainly open for other Catholics. People really need to weigh it up. Are they going to forfeit the only chance they may get for having children? Remember that in 300 years time the Church may have changed it’s mind…

A whole thread is sometimes needed because it is a very difficult decision, and sometimes it takes that long to discuss all the questions that surround the cirmcumstance and to get a better understanding why IVF goes against Catholic teachings. And if you read all the responses, you would see that someone did post the sources of this Church teaching very early in the thread.

There is no “getting out clause”, I suspect you do not understand the sacrament of reconciliation. God forgives our sins time and time again when we are truly sorry, but the consequences of our decisions are not cleaned from the slate.

This option is not open to Catholics that truly want to live out their faith to the best of their abilities. I know how hard it is to abide by this teaching, I suffer from secondary infertility and IVF would have been the only option to have more children. I am truly blessed to have a child biologically. BUT, if I never had, we had already discussed foster parenting and/or adoption. NEVER, was it on the table to pursue IVF any further as a Catholic.

 

[1ke]

Please could you clarify?Do you mean that IVF is the same as committing adultery?

The sixth commandment is God’s law regarding sexuality and marriage. It covers all sins against chastity and marriage, not just “adultery.” Remember, the list we recite is simply shorthand. The commandments encompass much, much more than that one line statement.

The sixth commandment refers to all sins against chastity and marriage, including such things as: fornication, masterbation, pornography, adultery, polygamy, prostitution, incest, contraception, assisted reproductive technologies, divorce, etc.

Perhaps reading the entire Catechism section on the sixth commandment would help.

So is it a sin if a spouse does all the lab work?

IVF is intrinsically evil. It is always immoral.

You misunderstand the meaning of the sixth commandment. Adultery and IVF are two different sins that violate the sixth commandment, but yes they are each equally grave sins.

 

[user3856530]

I follow the Ten Commandments. Not arbitrary stuff tacked on by the Catholic Church.
The Ten Commandments are quite clear. I follow them.
We didn’t murder any embryos, we only had one. As far as I’m concerned our whole IVF treatment was an expression of our love, and didn’t interfere with our marriage. So I didn’t commit adultery. God has the grace to allow humans find a cure for our infertility, and we took that. I’m thankful to God.

IVF was invented in the 1970s. The Catholic Church then came up with this doctrine to encompass it. To deny children to people who have medical conditions is evil in my opinion. How dare humans deny God’s love?

I suppose my humble opinion is worth much to the Catholic Church. Maybe it might be worth something to others considering IVF.

In what way does IVF violate the sixth commandment?

 

[user3856530]

I’ve being reading many of the forums on this website and there a some obviously quite devout people posting on here. I also understand that people who reply to my posts are doing me a favour, and are interpreting or recounting Catholic doctrine. So if I’m offending anyone, please let me know. I don’t really know what the boundaries are here yet.

Here are 10 hypothetical situations. Which ones would be regarded as a sin in the eyes of the Church?

One: Sexual intercourse within marriage with consenting adults with the goal to reproduce. (hopefully an easy one to start)

Two: Same as one, but couple are having fertility problems. A strict diet is used to help increase fertility

Three: Same as two, but the male partner uses Viagra because they have erectile dysfunction.

Four: Same as two, but the female partner uses pregnyl, a drug that promotes ovulation.

Five: Same as two, but with both Viagra and Pregnyl.

Six. Same as two, but the Viagra is not working, so the male partner has surgery and an implant is inserted into the penis so that an erection can be maintained.

Seven: Same as two. The male partner has an accident and has to get an artificial penis. He uses this for sexual intercourse.

Eight. Same as two. The male partner extracts his own sperm using a syringe, and puts this into the female by means other than his penis.

Nine. Same as two. The female has a problem with her uterus. She has surgery and an artificial uterus is implanted. They have reproductive intercourse.

Ten: Same as two. The male partner (who is also an embryologist) extracts one egg from the female and uses his own sperm to fertilise it. This is then implanted back into the female partner.

At what point is the line crossed?

 

[PatriceA]

Someone with more knowledge in this area will probably correct me if I’m wrong, but I would say examples eight and ten are against the teachings of the Church.

 

[user3856530]

PatriceA - what would you say is the main difference between seven and eight?

This isn’t a trick or anything by the way.

 

[PatriceA]

PatriceA - what would you say is the main difference between seven and eight?

This isn’t a trick or anything by the way.

Eight, the man is extracting the sperm by artificial means and implanting the sperm within the woman by artificial means. The marital act itself is no longer the means to the end result of conception.

The way I’ve always understood why Church has ruled the way it has on IVF and other methods of conception is because it violates the physical union of a husband and wife during the act of intercourse. A baby is a miracle, but just as precious is marital intercouse. This all ties into why premarital sex is also wrong and ABC is wrong, according to the Church.

 

[Spirithound]

PatriceA - what would you say is the main difference between seven and eight?

This isn’t a trick or anything by the way.

In #7, even though some major parts of both partners have been replaced with artificial prostheses, those prostheses are now part of their bodies.
In #8, the act of insemination is separated from anything that could be recognizable as the sexual act.