Question on Kyrie Eleison

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Why do we sing/recite the Kyrie Eleison three times in the EF but two times in the OF?
 
The Kyrie, is a Trinitarian form. It addresses the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, in that order.

The Tridentine form had 3 of each, to indicate the unity of the Trinity as a single Godhead.

The OF simplified this to a single address to each Person of the Trinity. When cantor lead, it appears to be 2 time, but it is intended as a ‘call\response’ format.
 
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I am puzzled why you hear this only twice. In my diocese, it is recited three times. It is shown on page 5 of the “Breaking Bread” hymnal, which is used universally in the US, in triplicate.

Edit: There is an option for the celebrant to use the above form, but he may also use the shortened form:

Have mercy on us, O Lord,
R. For we have sinned against You.
Show us O Lord, your mercy,
R. And grant us your salvation.
 
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American Catholic here. I’m used to hearing it 3 times in English.
 
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Perhaps someone could clarify for me. I’ve only heard it in the following format in the OF.

Lord have mercy. (laity repeats)
Christ have mercy. (laity repeats)
Lord have mercy. (laity repeats)

If it’s in English, the priest has some additional words in between. If in Greek I’ve always heard it sung in the call and response format.
 
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I see.
The ninefold Kyrie of the Mass is obviously directed to the Holy Trinity, as its oddness of number blocks any impression of “call and response.” It is not a dialogue between “presider and assembly” but a cry of the faithful to the Most Holy Trinity. The sixfold Kyrie, on the other hand, is a textual expression of the anthropocentric “closed circle” of which Ratzinger wrote: the priest or cantor calls out “Lord, have mercy” to the people, and they respond to the priest or cantor. The object of the prayer (the Holy Trinity) is in tension with the structure of it (a binary this-that, back-and-forth) — since one set of Kyrie eleison/Christe eleison/Kyrie eleison, as in the monastic Office, would have sufficed, if God were the one being addressed.
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I think the OP means why it isn’t any longer repeated thrice for each element, i.e. a 9-fold Kyrie

Kyrie Eleison
Kyrie Eleison
Kyrie Eleison
Christe Eleison
Christe Eleison
Christe Eleison
Kyrie Eleison
Kyrie Eleison
Kyrie Eleison,

Reduced two of each in the Ordinary Form. Except, that it isn’t quite that simple. If you look at the Graduale Romanum, the current chant book for the Ordinary Form, you’ll see that on most Sundays and ferias of the. year as well as for it has indeed been reduced to 2-2-2 (six-fold) instead of 3-3-3. But if you look at the entire Kyriale section of the Graduale, you’ll see many that are still nine-fold, for example Kyrie IX and X for solemnities feasts and memorials of the Blessed Virgin Mary, or Kyrie I for Sundays of Eastertide and feasts of Eastertide.

So it’s not quite correct to say that the OF has completely eliminated the nine-fold format. On higher occasions it is still used at least where the Mass is in Gregorian chant, such as Sundays of Eastertide. To be complete, Kyries I (Sundays/Feasts), III, VI, IX, X, and XV are all still nine-fold Kyries even in the Ordinary Form, as well as three of the ad libitum Kyries (I*, II*, IV)*.

That’s 9 Kyries that are still 9-fold in the Ordinary Form.
 
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So repeating it twice isnt as Good as thrice?

But isnt there an official explanation by the Vatican???.
 
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WingsOfEagles said:
American Catholic here. I’m used to hearing it 3 times in English.
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Confusion might be in the translation…Kyrie Eleison “Lord have Mercy” is only said twice in American parishes I have been to Mass in…Christe Eleison “Christ have Mercy” is said between the two Kyrie Eleison…

So there are three pleas to the Almighty for Mercy:

Kyrie Eleison - Lord have Mercy
Christe Eleison - Christ have Mercy
Kyrie Eleison - Lord have Mercy
 
At some points in byzantine, three is reached in response form by priest/laity/both, or priest/(cantor/choir)/laity
 
powerless said:
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WingsOfEagles:
American Catholic here. I’m used to hearing it 3 times in English.
Click to expand...
Confusion might be in the translation…Kyrie Eleison “Lord have Mercy” is only said twice in American parishes I have been to Mass in…Christe Eleison “Christ have Mercy” is said between the two Kyrie Eleison…

So there are three pleas to the Almighty for Mercy:

Kyrie Eleison - Lord have Mercy
Christe Eleison - Christ have Mercy
Kyrie Eleison - Lord have Mercy
Click to expand...
Yes, this is true. I was counting all 3 pleas.
 
Wesrock said:
Perhaps someone could clarify for me. I’ve only heard it in the following format in the OF.

Lord have mercy. (laity repeats)
Christ have mercy. (laity repeats)
Lord have mercy. (laity repeats)

If it’s in English, the priest has some additional words in between. If in Greek I’ve always heard it sung in the call and response format.
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Perhaps it depends? In my parish’s OF, it is 9 fold: (but still 3 pleas, to Lord-Christ-Lord).

Cantor: Kyrie Eleison, Kyrie Eleison: Kyrie, Kyrie, Eleison (response by the faithful)…Followed in same format by Christe Eleison, and again Kyrie Eleison.
 
powerless said:
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Wesrock:
Perhaps someone could clarify for me. I’ve only heard it in the following format in the OF.

Lord have mercy. (laity repeats)
Christ have mercy. (laity repeats)
Lord have mercy. (laity repeats)

If it’s in English, the priest has some additional words in between. If in Greek I’ve always heard it sung in the call and response format.
Click to expand...
Perhaps it depends? In my parish’s OF, it is 9 fold: (but still 3 pleas, to Lord-Christ-Lord).

Cantor: Kyrie Eleison, Kyrie Eleison: Kyrie, Kyrie, Eleison (response by the faithful)…Followed in same format by Christe Eleison, and again Kyrie Eleison.
Click to expand...
The article I quoted explains it. What we’re used to in the (American, at least) ordinary form is a six-fold call-and-response kyrie elieson.
  1. Leader sings Kyrie…
  2. Congregation sings Kyrie…
  3. Leader sings Christe…
  4. Congregation sings Christe…
  5. Leader sings Kyrie…
  6. Congregation sings Kyrie…
The EF has a nine-fold format.
  1. Kyrie…
  2. Kyrie…
  3. Kyrie…
  4. Christe…
  5. Christe…
  6. Christe…
  7. Kyrie…
  8. Kyrie…
  9. Kyrie…
The six-fold sings each “twice”, the nine-fold sings each three times. Granted, I don’t know if the OF has to be thought of as singing twice as if it’s failing to have a Trinitarian structure when that’s not the goal of it at all in the OF. But that structure is what the OP is commenting on.

Your format sounds like a 12-fold or 18-fold (unclear to me from your description).
 
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Wesrock said:
The article I quoted explains it. What we’re used to in the (American, at least) ordinary form is a six-fold call-and-response kyrie elieson.
Click to expand...
No worries, but, again, perhaps it depends, because in the U.S., it is far from universal. It may be a matter of what “you”, not “we” in America are used to in America.
 
Wesrock said:
The EF has a nine-fold format.
  1. Kyrie…
  2. Kyrie…
  3. Kyrie…
  4. Christe…
  5. Christe…
  6. Christe…
  7. Kyrie…
  8. Kyrie…
  9. Kyrie…
Click to expand...
As I mentioned above, this is not an EF vs OF thing. In the revised post-Conciliar Roman Gradual for the OF, some Kyries were reduced to 6-fold, some Kyries, especially for feasts or solemnities, or Sundays of Eastertide, retain the 9-fold format, for example feasts and solemnities of the Blessed Virgin Mary. There are also some 9-fold Kyries that can be used ad-libitum at other times.
 
Not to mention Palestrina and Bach et al. But then polyphonic music doesn’t worry about repetitions.
 
powerless said:
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Wesrock:
The article I quoted explains it. What we’re used to in the (American, at least) ordinary form is a six-fold call-and-response kyrie elieson.
Click to expand...
No worries, but, again, perhaps it depends, because in the U.S., it is far from universal. It may be a matter of what “you”, not “we” in America are used to in America.
Click to expand...
Okay, it definitely varies. Though I’ve seen it done the same way in all the many parishes I’ve belonged to and been to in the northeast, midwest, and southeast.
 
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Just out of interest, at today’s Mass for the Holy Family at our abbey, Kyrie IV* was used, an ad-libitum Kyrie.

It was chanted 9-fold as specified in the Gradual Romanum. This is an Ordinary Form Mass.
 
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