Question on Mass Intention/Stipend

[nana3]

I have always paid a stipend of $20 on weekend Masses for any Mass intention I needed said at our parish and $15 for weekdays. Recently though one of my cousins who has not lived a very good life to say the least died in January and one of my other cousins begged me to have 20 Masses said for him. She lives in Puerto Rico and they accept whatever you can afford for Masses and what you want to donate. I thought that is how it is suppose to be here as well, at least that is what my daughter’s Baltimore Catechism said for I homeschool her. It says we can’t buy a Mass for anyone but the stipend is for the priest and his expense and that in the old days when people were poor that they use to pay with chickens or vegetables but that now we donate what we can afford. So we could not afford 20 Masses at the $15 and $20 prices and so my husband called our parish to ask if we can donate what we can afford for all 20 Masses. The secretary told him that it would be fine but that she could not guarantee us the Mass time and date we picked for if someone else came along who paid the full price, she would move us. My husband says he doesn’t remember her saying that. Anyway, this Sunday a Mass was suppose to be said for my cousin at the 11:30 a.m. Mass. My husband even switched with another reader, for he is a lector, for that we could be at this Mass, and when they read who the Mass was for, it was not for my cousin. I was so disappointed and thought that there was no Mass said for him that day. My husband went up to the altar and checked the book of intentions and found out that the Mass for my cousin was said at 8 a.m. that day. We were not there. I called the office today and spoke to the secretary and told her that I emailed her all the dates that I picked out and wrote them down so that this would not happen again and that is when she told me what she told my husband and how they had the right to give someone else who pays the full price for a Sunday Mass of $20 instead of what we paid which came to $5 a Mass for I donated $100 for all the Masses. I could not believe it. I told her that they were then selling the Masses and they could not do that for it is suppose to be a donation and she told me that she did not want to argue with me but that was their price for the Mass intentions. I had to go for my daughter was at the dentist and the dentist came out and I hung up with her. I called my husband and he called the office and the secretary said she would refer all this to the pastor for these were his rules.

I got home and emailed her back and told her that I would prefer her to cancel all the rest of the Masses for my cousin and the amount we gave them would cover in full the Masses already said plus $20 to spare that they could keep as a donation. That is how upset I was. I checked with another church and they wanted $10 for each Mass and would not take anything less either. I went to yet another Catholic Church and they accepted what you can donate and afford. I went with that church. I can make it to this church Masses also whereas my parish is too far and could not make the weekday Masses, but could the weekends since my dh reads and my dd is in the children’s choir.

Is this okay what this parish is doing? Should the amount they ask be paid at all cost and if you can’t pay it, you lose the time and date to someone else that can or at least the time slot you wanted? Is this fair? Is this allowed by the Church?

 

[InspiritCarol]

Yikes. That sounds very yucky and unususal, but *possible *if the pastor is money-focused. (I’ve only know one in my entire life who was).

Is it possible that it wasn’t so much about the money as it was about the bulk? I mean I’ve never heard of 20 masses being said. Wow. Cool. I’m just trying to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Our current pastor has said repeatedly that we can pay whatever we want, even nothing.

If I were you, I would politely speak to your pastor about it. Perhaps the secretary has misunderstood; but please don’t take it personally or hold it against the church in general if this one pastor does turn out to be… well… *distasteful *in this regard.

 

[valentino]

Nana3:It seems to be a lack of communication.She said she told your husband that a person paying the full price could replace you.In regards to selling Masses IMO in this society everything costs more,priests do have eat,drive,ect like everyone else.Remember she didnt say they wouldnT have the masses said for only the $5(thats a concession)its just that she couldnt guarentee the time.If you were lucky enough to have say 5 masses said at the appointed time you could consider yoourself lucky.NOT BEING SARCASTIC move to a poor neighborhood where masses are said for $5.and then you’ll be sure to get them said as scheduled.

 

[odile53]

I didn’t know that you could request a date and time for a Mass that you had given a stipend to have said. Any time I’ve had a Mass said for anyone, and this has been in numerous churches in a few cities, I’ve just received a Mass card to send to the recipient and no statement as to the date and time of when the Mass would be offered.

I’m wondering, if they gave you a twenty Mass schedule for what would be a bulk rate if we were talking about purchasing a commodity, if the parish could select the dates and times, and then advise you of when the Masses were scheduled. Seems like a reasonable alternative to me.

 

[laszlo]

Is this okay what this parish is doing? Should the amount they ask be paid at all cost and if you can’t pay it, you lose the time and date to someone else that can or at least the time slot you wanted? Is this fair? Is this allowed by the Church?

The stipend what they accepted represents obligation to offer one or more masses for your intention, but the Mass itself is not sold, you have no right to require specific time for it.

Usually one mass for a recent death is appointed for fixed time, but in case of a series it is natural that the time is flexible. If you pay for an intention you have contract only for the number of the intentions, not the time when the masses are celebrated. This would be selling out the mass.

Here are the canons related to the intentions

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3D.HTM

 

[puzzleannie]

I So we could not afford 20 Masses at the $15 and $20 prices and so my husband called our parish to ask if we can donate what we can afford for all 20 Masses. The secretary told him that it would be fine but that she could not guarantee us the Mass time and date we picked for if someone else came along who paid the full price, she would move us. Mh?

this secretary is just plain wrong.
speak to the pastor today and ask him what the actual policy is.
If it is as you state, the bishop needs to know about this
there is a lot of fluff discussed on this forum about liturgical abuse
this is the real thing, folks

 

[1ke]

I suggest you contact the diocese and ask what the Mass offering stipend amount is set at. The amount is set at the diocesan or province level. Therefore, your statement that different parishes in the same diocese have higher and lower offering amounts seems out of line with canon law.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Also, from what my priest as told me even if he was to say 100 Masses in a day. He can only draw a stipend on one.

 

[1ke]

Also, from what my priest as told me even if he was to say 100 Masses in a day. He can only draw a stipend on one.

This is true, with the exception of Christmas where he may do so. If he says additional Masses on the same day, then the additional stipends go to whatever fund the bishop has designated. In our diocese it is the parish works of charity fund.

If the 8 a.m. and 11:30 a.m. masses were said by different priests, then each priest would be entitled to one stipend.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

This is true, with the exception of Christmas where he may do so. If he says additional Masses on the same day, then the additional stipends go to whatever fund the bishop has designated. In our diocese it is the parish works of charity fund.

If the 8 a.m. and 11:30 a.m. masses were said by different priests, then each priest would be entitled to one stipend.

That is my understanding as well.

 

[Phemie]

While I was the parish secretary anyone requesting a Mass was asked if they wanted a specific date. Most didn’t but some did and we did our best to accommodate them on a first come, first served basis.

A few people regularly requested 10 or 12 Masses at a time. One woman would call early in January to request Masses for her murdered son and his grandparents on significant dates throughout the year. If someone who couldn’t pay the full stipend had requested one of the dates she wanted there is no way their request would have been bumped to accommodate her because she could pay the full stipend.

 

[hilde_the_dog]

Not to deflect the question but why 20 masses? why not a mass on the anniversary of his death for the next twenty years. Why not 12 masses this year? would not one work? Is one necessary ?

 

[nana3]

Nana3:It seems to be a lack of communication.She said she told your husband that a person paying the full price could replace you.In regards to selling Masses IMO in this society everything costs more,priests do have eat,drive,ect like everyone else.Remember she didnt say they wouldnT have the masses said for only the $5(thats a concession)its just that she couldnt guarentee the time.If you were lucky enough to have say 5 masses said at the appointed time you could consider yoourself lucky.NOT BEING SARCASTIC move to a poor neighborhood where masses are said for $5.and then you’ll be sure to get them said as scheduled.

You are wrong and I will address this in another persons response, but your response is uncharitable. Mass intentions is an offering and not for sale!

 

[nana3]

Yikes. That sounds very yucky and unususal, but *possible *if the pastor is money-focused. (I’ve only know one in my entire life who was).

Is it possible that it wasn’t so much about the money as it was about the bulk? I mean I’ve never heard of 20 masses being said. Wow. Cool. I’m just trying to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Our current pastor has said repeatedly that we can pay whatever we want, even nothing.

If I were you, I would politely speak to your pastor about it. Perhaps the secretary has misunderstood; but please don’t take it personally or hold it against the church in general if this one pastor does turn out to be… well… *distasteful *in this regard.

Don’t worry, I love my Catholic Church and will not let what this one secretary action make me leave the church. I don’t think the Pastor is aware of what she did and it may not be his rules but actually his brothers who runs the show around there a lot. That is a whole other story. We are waiting for the Pastor to return our call. The secretary did not misunderstand though. I do know she had a problem with the 20 Masses for she made a comment about that.

 

[nana3]

I didn’t know that you could request a date and time for a Mass that you had given a stipend to have said. Any time I’ve had a Mass said for anyone, and this has been in numerous churches in a few cities, I’ve just received a Mass card to send to the recipient and no statement as to the date and time of when the Mass would be offered.

I’m wondering, if they gave you a twenty Mass schedule for what would be a bulk rate if we were talking about purchasing a commodity, if the parish could select the dates and times, and then advise you of when the Masses were scheduled. Seems like a reasonable alternative to me.

In our dioceses we have to give a date and the Mass time you are requesting and it is on a first comes first serves basis.

 

[nana3]

The stipend what they accepted represents obligation to offer one or more masses for your intention, but the Mass itself is not sold, you have no right to require specific time for it.

Usually one mass for a recent death is appointed for fixed time, but in case of a series it is natural that the time is flexible. If you pay for an intention you have contract only for the number of the intentions, not the time when the masses are celebrated. This would be selling out the mass.

Here are the canons related to the intentions

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3D.HTM

Again, we have to give them the time and date we want and it is on a first come first serve basis in our parishes in our diocese, so I do have a right to ask for a time and date. It is how it is done. It is how it is done in many dioceses across America.

Thanks for the Canon Law, but I was also given them to prove that I was correct by a good friend who is a priest and he told me what this parish is doing is wrong. They can only take an “offering” and that is what the person can afford to give for the Mass and when they suggest an amount that is all it is a suggestion not a payment. He also said that the secretary was very wrong in taking the Mass she gave for my cousin away to give to another who paid more for the Mass. That is paying for the Mass to the highest bidder and very wrong. He also said that was in the canon laws you quoted above. He said the Pastor needs to talk to his staff unless he also agrees with this and if he does, he told me to go to the diocese with all of this.

 

[nana3]

this secretary is just plain wrong.
speak to the pastor today and ask him what the actual policy is.
If it is as you state, the bishop needs to know about this
there is a lot of fluff discussed on this forum about liturgical abuse
this is the real thing, folks

Thanks Puzzleannie, you and 1ke seem to have it right that I need to go to the bishop or diocese about this if there is liturgical abuse. I do want to talk to the Pastor first. I will say that my husband did call the diocese office already without giving our parish away and talked to someone there and it seems to be the “rule” that you pay whatever the amount the local parish wants. My husband reminded this person that it then becomes a sale and not an offering and this person began to get confused in her words and didn’t know what to say so she said she would refer him to the priest there that handles Canon Law. So there seems to be confusion all the way up in the diocese office. I will say this, that our Diocese was a very liberal diocese for many years and when we got Bishop Dorsey and then Bishop Wenski, they tried to clean it up per say and get rid of the liturgical abuses that were out there. So it is slowly getting into a Conservative and Orthodox diocese again. We now have a new Bishop (Noonan) but I don’t know anything about him. I live in the Orlando Diocese.

 

[nana3]

Thank you all for responding and I am grateful for your responses, but I will wait to talk to my pastor and if this is his policy go to the diocese with all of this. I am so grateful to have a good friend who is a good holy priest and he wrote to me after I posted on here and he was kind enough to let me know that I was not wrong and the parish was wrong. For all those who are wondering why 20 Masses, let me remind you all that the Mass is the highest form of prayer that we can give to the living and the dead. It is better than the Rosary. As someone said on here who use to be a secretary for a parish it is not uncommon for people to request many Masses throughout the year. The more the better for the soul, I say. I can only hope that I would have someone offering many Masses for me when I die.

But for the very curious, the reason I am offering so many Masses for my cousin is because he was murdered. He was betrayed by his best friend that he called his brother who shot him in the head and then the rest of the gang, drug dealers, drove by and shot him 6 times in the chest before he fell to the ground. It was all done together and very well planned. This was in Puerto Rico and was cousin was a drug addict and dealer for many years. Please don’t say he got what he deserved. You don’t know his upbringing and his soul. I thought for sure that he went to hell, but the Lord wanted me to know, for I have been praying for him since he was a teen and got involved in drugs, the man who was converting before he was killed. He was not able to get rid of the drug habit himself but he was giving of his time to the local Catholic Church and talking to teens who were addicted to drugs and helping them quit. He would not go to Mass but stay outside of the church, according to the deacon, who he helped with this group of young drug addicts. He had a big heart and helped many people. There is so much more I found out at his funeral that I cried. I knew my cousin may have a chance that he could have gone to purgatory. If the Lord made all this known to me, the least I can do is have Masses said for this young man (died at 33) who was a lost soul who felt no one in our family loved him. He revealed this to one of my cousins who out of the blue called me as well. Like I said, many things happened and I can’t explain it all in a thread. Just know I have my reasons and I loved my cousin who was rejected by his own sisters and parents, who I can’t blame for he use to steal from them, but nevertheless, rejected and did not know love. Please trust me that I have my reasons for the 20 Masses and I won’t stop there either. On his anniversary of his death, January 22, I will offer another Mass and in 2012 more as well. The Lord revealed to me when my uncle entered in Eternity, not only me but his ex-wife and daughter too, so I hope he will allow me to know when my cousin will too. I have already had one dream about him. The Lord has always spoken to me in dreams, since my early 20’s. I hope this satisfy the curious.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

A few points:

1. The standard Mass stipend is set by the local Ordinary.
2. Usually (but not in every diocese) a weekday Mass stipend is just the priest’s stipend whereas a Sunday Mass stipend contains the priest’s stipend and a “music fee.”
3. While a priest can only keep one stipend per day (visiting priest fees excluded), stipends are still paid for other Masses with the money donated to whatever has been indicated by the local Ordinary (usually the priest’s parish).
4. If a parish promises to say a Mass at a specific time and place then it must honor it (extenuating circumstances excluded).

---

Now, in the case presented perhaps the parish is having difficulty with finances so it is trying to meet its music costs by shuffling Masses around with a priority given to those intentions that have paid the music fee. This “solution” should not be done since it gives the appearance of trafficking in the sacraments and canon law (c. 947) states that that is to be avoided at all costs (no pun intended).

However, with all of that said, one should also pay the suggested Mass offering unless there is a real financial hardship. Priests should never exclude a Mass intention based on how much is given. But people should also not short the Mass stipend unless there’s actual hardship or difficulty.

What may have happened is that, given the large number of Masses requested, the parish decided it didn’t qualify in their opinion as a hardship case. After all, you were still able to contribute $100 which is no small amount. So the parish decided to simply fit the Masses in where they could.
I’m not saying that’s the right thing to do, but it might be the way they viewed it.

 

[valentino]

Nana3: i beg your pardon but I didnt say it was a stipend that was what the person said that i was addressing my opinion to.Honestly i thought it was an offering to.