Question on matthew 17:20

[limabeanerson]

20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”

I had someone bring this up in a “debate” on some other non-religious forums. He suggested that if this were true anyone with even a little faith could basically get/do whatever they wanted.

Does anyone have a good explanation of what Jesus was talking about here? Was this specifically for one person or is it to all Christians? Just looking for a good explanation on why this passage does not prove the Bible false. The atheist I’m discussing this with claims that the fact that a priest (or other faithful Christian beliver) may pray for something that does not come true proves the bible is lying.

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

The way I would respond to this is that prayer isn’t a magic spell to a genie-God granting our every wish and obeying our commands. Prayers have to be in line with God’s will for us in order to be answered positively; we don’t always understand that will clearly enough to know why our requests aren’t reasonable or appropriate, nor can we always clearly see what God has in store for us.

 

[melchesidechpio]

I had someone bring this up in a “debate” on some other non-religious forums. He suggested that if this were true anyone with even a little faith could basically get/do whatever they wanted.

Does anyone have a good explanation of what Jesus was talking about here? Was this specifically for one person or is it to all Christians? Just looking for a good explanation on why this passage does not prove the Bible false. The atheist I’m discussing this with claims that the fact that a priest (or other faithful Christian beliver) may pray for something that does not come true proves the bible is lying.

The mountains represent all your obsticles. Having the faith of a mustard seed basically putting your trust in the Lord.

examine this from the Haydock Bible Commentary

Ver. 19. If you have faith as a grain of mustard-seed. Christ insinuates to his apostles, as if they had not yet faith enough to work great miracles, which require a firm faith joined with a lively confidence in God. The mustard-seed is brought in with an allusion to its hot and active qualities. (Witham) — That is, a perfect faith; which, in its properties and its fruits, resembles the grain of mustard-seed in the parable. (Chap. xii.[xiii.?] 31.) (Challoner) — By faith is here understood, not that virtue by which we assent to all things that are to be believed of Christ, the first, of the theological virtues, in which the apostles were not deficient, but that confidence in the power and goodness of God, that he will on such an occasion exert these, his attributes, in favour of the supplicant. To have a true faith of this kind, and free from all presumption, is a great and high privilege, which the Holy Ghost breathes into such only as he pleases. (Jansenius) — Examples of this efficacious faith are given by St. Paul. (Hebrews chap. ii.[xi.?]) St. Gregory of Neo-Cæsarea is also related, by Eusebius and Ven. Bede, to have removed by the efficacy of his faith a rock, which obstructed the building of a church; thus literally fulfilling the promise of Jesus Christ. (Tirinus) — The faith of the apostles, especially of those that had not been present at the transfiguration, was not perfect and complete in all its parts, till after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ, and the descent of the Holy Ghost. (Haydock) — St. Jerome understands by mountains, things the most difficult to be effected.

notice the verse difference between translations.

 

[Dorothy]

Non-believers like to jump on every little thing in Scripture that they do not understand, and try to make it appear foolish.

I agree that the mountains that need to be removed by faith are the obstacles in our mind that keep us from drawing closer to the Lord, or getting to know him at all.

We have a good God who answers prayer that He knows will be helpful to our salvation. To grant our every wish would not do that.

 

[JRKH]

I had someone bring this up in a “debate” on some other non-religious forums. He suggested that if this were true anyone with even a little faith could basically get/do whatever they wanted.

Does anyone have a good explanation of what Jesus was talking about here? Was this specifically for one person or is it to all Christians? Just looking for a good explanation on why this passage does not prove the Bible false. The atheist I’m discussing this with claims that the fact that a priest (or other faithful Christian beliver) may pray for something that does not come true proves the bible is lying.

Does it speak to the truth of the bible or to the strength of ones faith?

I don’t hold to the idea of the mountain being representative of our difficulties etc, though I have often heard it expressed that way. I believe that Jesus was speaking literally. After all did not Jesus curse the fig tree and it died?

Cor ad Cor said in his post that prayer is not a “magic spell” and this is largely true. The athiest makes a further mistake by confusing “belief” with “faith”. There is a huge difference.

What this passage is, is a call to faith. A challenge to us all to examine what our faith truly is. It is like when jesus told the rich young man to sell all, give tot he poor and come follow Him. Jesus seeks more, He tells us that we must be perfect as our heavenly father is perfect. No matter where we are on our faith journey there is more to be done.

In this passage we are called to go beyond belief. We are called to integrate Christ into our very selves. To examine what “faith” really means and what it entails. to take a good hard look at what our real fiath is - and where it is.

Peace
James

 

[Donald_W]

Here is what Saint Cyril of Jerusalem a Doctor of Faith and Bishop
Had this to say about it:

And of this faith it is said, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed. For just as the grain of mustard seed is small in size, but fiery in its operation, and though sown in a small space has a circle of great brances, and when grown up is able even to shelter the fowls; so, likewise, faith in the swiftest moment works the greatest effects in the soul. For, when enlightened by faith, the soul hath visions of God, and as far as is posssible beholds God, and ranges round the bounds of the universe, and before the end of this world already beholds the Judment, and the payment of the promised rewards. Have thou therefore that faith in Him which cometh from thine own self, that thou mayest also receive from Him that faith which worketh things above man.

Oh, by the way, just like you, he was answering against Heresy.

 

[TimothyH]

I believe that Jesus was speaking literally. After all did not Jesus curse the fig tree and it died?

The athiest makes a further mistake by confusing “belief” with “faith”. There is a huge difference.

What this passage is, is a call to faith. A challenge to us all to examine what our faith truly is. In this passage we are called to go beyond belief. We are called to integrate Christ into our very selves. To examine what “faith” really means and what it entails. to take a good hard look at what our real fiath is - and where it is.

Jame is exactly right.

I would quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church

***Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and (all) that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. By faith “man freely commits his entire self to God.” For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God’s will. “The righteous shall live by faith.” Living faith “work through charity.” (CCC1814)***And the Holy Father from his Christmas address…

***"…if Truth is Love, it calls for faith, for the “yes” of our hearts."***The Catechism teaches us that the theological virtue of faith is believing in everything God has revealed to us through his Holy Church. It teaches us that “Man freely commits his entire self.” or as the Holy Father put it, “the yes of our hearts.”

Faith is a conscious act of the will. Faith is a decision to believe what the Church authoritatively teaches. Faith is a gift but we have to make a concious decision to accept that gift first, before it is given. In so far as we decide to accept that gift - so seek and know God’s will as taught by his Holy Church, Christ meant exactly what he said.

We are also told to be persistent in prayer - God sometimes takes his time. Pray to St. Monica, the patron of persistence.

-Tim-

 

[EricFilmer]

When we read the Acts of the Apostles, the biographies of the saints and Church history, we see over and over again accounts of how Christians overcame incredible obstacles through faith and the power of God. Consider, for example, how the pagan Roman Empire wielded the world’s most powerful army to try to stomp out the Church, but ended up converting to Christianity and becoming the Holy Roman Empire. As far as metaphors go, that was certainly a case of a mountain getting moved.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Faith is a conscious act of the will. Faith is a decision to believe what the Church authoritatively teaches. Faith is a gift but we have to make a concious decision to accept that gift first, before it is given. In so far as we decide to accept that gift - so seek and know God’s will as taught by his Holy Church, Christ meant exactly what he said.

We are also told to be persistent in prayer - God sometimes takes his time. Pray to St. Monica, the patron of persistence.

-Tim-

Great post Tim. I would like to add that prayer changes one’s soul, not God’s mind. It should open ourselves and draw near to God’s will.

melchesidechpio:

Having the faith of a mustard seed basically putting your trust in the Lord.

This is Faith in a nutshell :bowdown:

 

[Big_Dummy]

19 Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?”

20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.” [21] [a]

In context, Jesus was speaking in private with the disciples, this was not a public teaching.

Even if it is taken as a public teaching because it is recorded in the Bible, then all actions of faith are guided or curved based on God’s will. It is not to our knowledge his will for us to be throwing mountains into the sea and such.

But, God did through the apostles things that seems diffuicult like healing and raising the dead.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

Jesus often spoke in parables and used symbolism to get his teaching across. He showed that man had the ability to not only heal the sick and cast out demons, but to also overcome sin and death.

Therefore, when Jesus spoke of moving mountains, he was speaking of the conversion and change of the people of the earth. These ‘mountains’ are people who are firmly rooted in false religions, most likely leaders, who are at the mercy of Satan. They are presented as mountains because they exalt themselves into the heavens, they are seemingly unmovable, and they are obstacles to overcome. When he speaks of casting them into the sea, he is referring to the unstable people of the world, who have no faith in Christ. The mountain (the false teachers of the world) is moved from his former place (converted) and is now cast into the sea (the unstable and lost people of the earth) to bring more people to God. Basically, Jesus teaches them that if they have even just a little faith, they not only have the power to cast out demons, but they have the power to change the world.