Question on Matthew 5:29

[o_mlly]

She inherited her sin- nature from her sin-sick father passed down from Adam.

We believe Mary was immaculately conceived, i.e., without Original Sin.

 

[De_Maria]

I too agree in part, however, as true as it is that Jesus was open to sin but chose not too, Mary was so much more inclined.

If she were not predestined to be the Mother of God. Do you believe in predestination?

She inherited her sin- nature from her sin-sick father passed down from Adam.

We don’t believe this. We believe that one of the gifts that she mentioned in Scripture is the Immaculate Conception:

Luke 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

This is why she cried out to God her savior! Luke 1 who came to save her from the penalty of eternal damnation as He did all who place their faith in Christ.

If your mother were going to be run over by a truck, and you had the power to prevent it, would you allow the truck to hit your mom and call the doctor to save her? Or would you prevent her being run over by the truck?

Did Jesus have the power to prevent His mother from inheriting her father’s sin nature?

 

[tgGodsway]

Does Scripture say that? Because Scripture says that the Holy Spirit will lead us to all truth. I don’t remember seeing that verse which says that faith is the means to finding truth.

You seem to treat these two concepts as if they are apples to apples. It is true the holy Spirit leads us into all the truth. Based on other scriptures, however, the holy Spirit leads us by our faith. The oppose of faith is doubt. We certainly would not be led by the holy Spirit in doubt.

 

[tgGodsway]

There’s a total lack of detail there. The Faith, can be boiled down to that which the Church Teaches.

This can be true as long as the Church teaches the word of God and not the word of man. “Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” Rom. 10:17. Many Churches have departed from teaching the word of God.

 

[tgGodsway]

And, as you noted, faith and truth aren’t synonyms. So, the Catholic Teaching holds. We believe the Holy Spirit is leading the Church into all Truth.

Again, … the holy Spirit leads the Church to the degree the Church is following by faith in what God’s word says. The Holy Spirit leads us into all the truth found in God’s word.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Does Scripture say that? Because Scripture says that the Holy Spirit will lead us to all truth. I don’t remember seeing that verse which says that faith is the means to finding truth.

You seem to treat these two concepts as if they are apples to apples. It is true the holy Spirit leads us into all the truth. Based on other scriptures, however, the holy Spirit leads us by our faith. The oppose of faith is doubt. We certainly would not be led by the holy Spirit in doubt.

But it is you who doubt. We believe the Holy Spirit is leading the INFALLIBLE Catholic Church into all truth. We believe the Catholic Church is infallible because it is being led by the Holy Spirit.

You don’t believe anyone is infallible. So, whom do you think the Holy Spirit has led into all truth? In whom do you have this faith by which you claim the Holy Spirit is guiding you?

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

There’s a total lack of detail there. The Faith, can be boiled down to that which the Church Teaches.

This can be true as long as the Church teaches the word of God and not the word of man. “Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” Rom. 10:17. Many Churches have departed from teaching the word of God.

But not the Catholic Church. This goes to your

We certainly would not be led by the holy Spirit in doubt.

We don’t doubt the power of the Holy Spirit to guide the infallibly.

 

[tgGodsway]

But it is you who doubt. We believe the Holy Spirit is leading the INFALLIBLE Catholic Church into all truth. We believe the Catholic Church is infallible because it is being led by the Holy Spirit.

De-Maria… there you go again making such absurd pronouncements of me. I am a believer in Christ, not a doubter. As far as the Catholic Church being infallible, you realize you say this in the context of some of the most gross sexual abuse scandals ever known in the modern world. The idea that the Church is infallible has never been validated from the voices of the Apostolic circle, and you know it.

 

[tgGodsway]

You don’t believe anyone is infallible. So, whom do you think the Holy Spirit has led into all truth? In whom do you have this faith by which you claim the Holy Spirit is guiding you?

The Holy Spirit is leading all within the Church who follow by faith. But again, quoting from the Apostle Paul who said, “we see in a glass dimly, but then face to face…” we, have not arrived at all the truth, and will not until his coming when we stand in our glorified bodies. Not everyone in the Church stands in the truth simply because they are in the Church. Each one receives the truth based on their hunger to chase it!

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

But it is you who doubt. We believe the Holy Spirit is leading the INFALLIBLE Catholic Church into all truth. We believe the Catholic Church is infallible because it is being led by the Holy Spirit.

De-Maria… there you go again making such absurd pronouncements of me. I am a believer in Christ, not a doubter. As far as the Catholic Church being infallible, you realize you say this in the context of some of the most gross sexual abuse scandals ever known in the modern world. The idea that the Church is infallible has never been validated from the voices of the Apostolic circle, and you know it.

Individual catholics acting in spite of Catholic Teaching do not change the fact that the Catholic Church infallibly taught against the sins they committed.

But you said that that the Holy Spirit leads those who have faith and not those who doubt.

Between you and I, who doubts the capacity of the Holy Spirit to lead the Church into all truth?

De_Maria:

You don’t believe anyone is infallible. So, whom do you think the Holy Spirit has led into all truth? In whom do you have this faith by which you claim the Holy Spirit is guiding you?

The Holy Spirit is leading all within the Church who follow by faith. But again, quoting from the Apostle Paul who said, “we see in a glass dimly, but then face to face…” we, have not arrived at all the truth, and will not until his coming when we stand in our glorified bodies. Not everyone in the Church stands in the truth simply because they are in the Church.

True. And I never said they did. But I still believe the Holy Spirit is leading the Catholic Church into all truth.

Each one receives the truth based on their hunger to chase it!

But the Holy Spirit guides the Catholic Church into all truth and Scripture tells us that the Catholic Church will be Teaching this truth, even in the heavens.

Ephesians 3:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

 

[tgGodsway]

Individual catholics acting in spite of Catholic Teaching do not change the fact that the Catholic Church infallibly taught against the sins they committed.

Well many Catholic leaders who voted their decrees in your Church councils, all supposedly under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, were still individual sinners capable of error. Agreed.

Do you think that in regards to establishing doctrine alone they were incapable of error, (and if so, on what scriptural bases?) but concerning the temptations of sin in other areas, they are just like you and I-sinners? Again, who within the Apostolic circle validated this?

 

[De_Maria]

Well many Catholic leaders who voted their decrees in your Church councils, all supposedly under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, were still individual sinners capable of error. Agreed.

Agreed.

Do you think that in regards to establishing doctrine alone they were incapable of error, (and if so, on what scriptural bases?)

1. It is on the basis of Sacred Tradition.
2. Scripture does not contradict this, since Scripture depicts the Church as infallible:

1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

1. Scripture also confirms that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit when it comes together in conference:

Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

but concerning the temptations of sin in other areas, they are just like you and I-sinners?

Agreed. Were even the Apostles immune to temptation to sin? And if they weren’t, how can you believe that they could sit down an write the Scriptures, infallibly?

Again, who within the Apostolic circle validated this?

There is no direct statement. It must be gleaned from statements as I’ve provided above. There are many more.

 

[tgGodsway]

It seems to me that you’ve made tradition the leader and not the follower. Traditions are typically birthed out of beliefs and doctrine, not the other way around. In other words, traditions are the FRUIT of something, and not the ROOT.

In your view, the tradition made the decision to believe in the infallibility of the Church, regardless of what the scriptures say about it. O’ yeah… the scriptures don’t teach it, but to the contrary.

If tradition sets the course of what is truth, then the scriptures must take a back seat and in effect, that is exactly what has happened in the CC. For you, tradition, is not the carbon copy that reflects the teachings of the word of God, but instead supersedes it.

Thus Jesus words ring clear when He said, "… Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, hypocrites, as it is written, this people honor me with their lips but their heart is far from me; v7 in vain do they worship me, teaching AS DOCTRINES the commandments of men. v8 You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men. Mark 7:4-8

 

[De_Maria]

It seems to me that you’ve made tradition the leader and not the follower.

Jesus did that.

Traditions are typically birthed out of beliefs and doctrine, not the other way around.

True. Beliefs are taught. Doctrine, tradition and teaching, mean the same thing.

In other words, traditions are the FRUIT of something, and not the ROOT.

Still true. Tradition simply means “teaching.” Scripture is, itself, a form of tradition. It is merely the written form. The teaching had to exist in someone’s mind before it is written down. And, in the case of the New Testament, the Doctrine existed in heaven before it was INSPIRED in men and then orally taught by those men. Eventually, those same men, wrote it down.

In your view, the tradition made the decision to believe in the infallibility of the Church, regardless of what the scriptures say about it.

Lol! On the contrary, Jesus Christ taught that truth. And commanded the Apostles to pass it on, by word. The Church, later, wrote it down.

O’ yeah… the scriptures don’t teach it, but to the contrary.

On the contrary, the Scriptures do teach it, but not explicitly.

If tradition sets the course of what is truth, then the scriptures must take a back seat and in effect, that is exactly what has happened in the CC.

I don’t know what you mean by the “scriptures must take a back seat”. The fact is that Sacred Tradition Teaches, explicitly, that the Scriptures contain no errors.

For you, tradition, is not the carbon copy that reflects the teachings of the word of God, but instead supersedes it.

You continue to equate the term “Word of God” with Scripture. But Tradition is the Word of God. And the New Testament is a copy of the Word of God in Sacred Tradition. The New Testament Scripture came from Sacred Tradition.

Thus Jesus words ring clear when He said, "… Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, hypocrites, as it is written, this people honor me with their lips but their heart is far from me; v7 in vain do they worship me, teaching AS DOCTRINES the commandments of men. v8 You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men. Mark 7:4-8

When you find the idea of Sola Scriptura in Scripture, you will be able to make that claim. Until you do that, you are a living example of someone who embraces the word of men in order to deny the Word of God.

 

[tgGodsway]

Between you and I, who doubts the capacity of the Holy Spirit to lead the Church into all truth?

It has never been about the Holy Spirit’s ability to lead. It is always about God’s people willing to follow. You avoided my question, again. Where is the apostolic validation to this idea of infallibility. Please do not site some vague, obscure tradition answer. How did the “founders” of the Christian faith, validate, confirm and promote the belief in the infallibility of the Church?

 

[De_Maria]

It has never been about the Holy Spirit’s ability to lead. It is always about God’s people willing to follow.

The Catholic Church is willing to follow and has been doing so, for 2000 years.

You avoided my question, again.

No, I didn’t. Let me see if I can find it. I think you used a different word than you are now using, not “validation”. Yep. You said “consensus of voices”.

I replied in this post.

Consensus? You mean that the witness of St. John and of St. Paul are not enough? Those are the two most explicit.

John 17:20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

2 Timothy 2 :2 You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others.

While, Matthew strongly implies this fact:

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

And you have provided nothing. Not one thing which even begins to suggest that the Church’s authority will end with the Apostles. Show me one verse that even suggests that the Apostles will not pass on their authority.

and continued in this post.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

Because its an artificial requirement which you apply to this one question. Show me the consensus that Jesus is God. How many Apostles explicitly say, “My Lord and my God”?

Show me the consensus on the Holy Trinity. How many Apostles say, “in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.”?

Show me the consensus on the idea of faith alone? The only time both those words are put together, Scripture says, “not by faith alone”.

There is absolutely no Teaching on the Holy Trinity in Scripture, either. There is no teaching on faith alone. There is no Teaching stating that the Holy Spirit is God. We get all that from Tradition. In your case, you get faith alone from your false tradition.

Where’s the denial that St. Peter leads the Church? Where’s your consensus on that idea? You admittedly have one verse into which you read the idea. Where’s your consensus?

So, I responded in great detail in a post so long that it took a continuation to finish it.

Where is the apostolic validation to this idea of infallibility.

Again, we have Matt 16:18-19, Acts 5:4; 1 Tim 3:15, Eph 3:10.

Where is your validation that the Church is not infallible?

Please do not site some vague, obscure tradition answer. How did the “founders” of the Christian faith, validate, confirm and promote the belief in the infallibility of the Church?

Preaching. The oral method of passing on the Word of God.

2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

 

[tgGodsway]

I already know John and Timothy and Matthew and all N.T. writers had an infallible message and they preached it… and they taught others to believe it and preach it.

But that is not the same thing as to say the “Church” is infallible. Can the Church prophesy falsely? Of course you and I can! … of course the pope can! of course Joel Osteen can … of course the Cardinal’s in Rome can …

By what standard should our message be judged to determine whether or not it is false?.. by the standard laid down by the founders of the faith, we call “scripture” Jesus Christ being the chief and head. Eph. 2:20.

This special rule you made that only when Peter was sitting in his special chair could he decree with infallibly, has zero support by any O.T. or New author, only to the contrary! Many unified voices validate the truth, not just a select few in a select church.

You made it up. When the Church councils convened to discuss a matter, in, lets say the 1500’s: by what truth-measurement did they use to arrive at their theological deductions?..

If you say the bible, then surely we can take a look at the scriptures they used and see their interpretations and see if the holy Spirit who lives in us, bares witness with them.
If you say, they relied on the oral traditions handed down, … now we have a hard time tracking the origins of the decree.

So if it was decreed that Mary was born sinless, for example through a special miracle at conception, and tradition reflects this truth, okay… but tradition is the end result of someone’s teaching.

You draw a blank when I ask you to steer me to the original teacher of that doctrine. My aim is to connect the teaching to it’s foundational leaders who walked with Christ.

 

[tgGodsway]

Continued for De_Maria

But I can’t get that answer from you!.. because we’re using someone’s here-say carbon copy of a witness that wouldn’t hold up in any court of law. It’s kind of like the so-called whistle blowers trying to impeach the president. As it turned out, none of them were actually witnesses to anything.

The best historical document we have with the most N.T. content of the life, death, and resurrection of Christ and his Apostles, … is the word of God, the bible. No… it’s not the church that is infallible, but the word of God alone!

By the way, I can show you a consensus of apostolic voices who say Jesus is God and that God is trinity. Matthew’s gospel offers a clear statement of trinity in the famous Mt. 28 passage, but John confirms it in 1st. John 5:7.

“There are three who bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.” The rule is: “upon the mouth of two or three let every word=doctrine be established”

The emphasis on the word “alone” was added in the context of the reformers frustration trying to drive home a rejected point. “For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man boast.”

Their interpretation was reasonable. The only thing that saves is one’s faith. Why? because it is not of yourselves… it is a gift… works play no part in the deal, was the message.

Paul repeated the concept to his pupils sitting in the church at Rome. 11:6.

Justification is a-faith- act that happens in a moment, not a process over time. Thus faith alone is a concept derived from the biblical text. No one has defrauded anything when they say “faith alone.”

You’ve been caught up with finding specific words in the bible to prove a concept. I’m saying we can find the specific concepts in the bible to prove specific words. “The sum of thy word is truth!” Ps. 160:119.

The exact statement you think you need to prove the holy Spirit is God, for instance, is found in an indirect statement.

“But Peter said, Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? v4 . . . . You have not lied to men but to God.” Acts 5:3,4

Let me bring in another witness: again, John; who said “For there are three who bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are ONE.” 1st. John 5: 7,8.

The concept that we are to be "born of God (1st. John 5:19,) is a concept taught in the gospel of John to mean we are born of the holy Spirit. John 3:5.

Paul supported the idea when he said, “Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.” Ro. 5:5

The concept of a catching away of the saints, is found in the bible yet the word rapture is not in the bible. Many things.

peace out.

 

[irenaeuslyons]

My aim is to connect the teaching to it’s foundational leaders who walked with Christ.

St Ignatius of Antioch was the child held by Christ in Mark’s gospel. St Clement in mentioned by St. Paul favorably in his epistle. SS Polycarp and Ignatius were friends of St John. St Irenaeus heard the preaching of St John before he died. You should be looking to their writings as well to bring clarity to the NT.