Question on music in Mass

[coolduude]

Hello all,

Perhaps some of you can help me out with this issue. In a nutshell, I understand that songs such as Our God is an Awesome God , Amazing Grace (My chains are Gone), and God’s Gonna Cut You Down are not allowed in Mass and should not be played (the last one was a joke… )

Songs like that are forbidden, but what is the reason why they are restricted? I figure it’s because Jesus is truly present there in Eucharist. But then I ask myself “Would Jesus really care if we clap in His presence?” So you see, I can’t find a satisfactory answer for myself.

What do you guys say? What’s the reason behind such songs not going into the Mass? (although I have heard “Amazing Grace (My Chains are gone)” in Mass before )

 

[ConstantineTG]

Isn’t it faulty theology thats the reason rather than the music itself?

 

[coolduude]

Isn’t it faulty theology thats the reason rather than the music itself?

In some cases, but not in all. For example, one could take “Dies Irae” (or something similar), turn it modern or ‘retro’ and play it at Mass. There’s no faulty theology but it’s still forbidden, at least as far as I know.

That example was pretty extreme, yes, but it illustrates my point.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

Where did you get the idea that such songs are barred?

I have sung “Amazing Grace” many times in Parishes, including before Vatican II.

You may sing any appropriate religious music. It need not be written by, or even commonly performed by, a Roman Catholic or in Catholic Churches.

 

[Elijah_Baley]

Where did you get the idea that such songs are barred?

I have sung “Amazing Grace” many times in Parishes, including before Vatican II.

You may sing any appropriate religious music. It need not be written by, or even commonly performed by, a Roman Catholic or in Catholic Churches.

Some old Protestant songs have specific theological elements which are specifically Protestant and written contrary to the faith. I remember a great many of the old favorites have that problem — I don’t remember if Amazing Grace is one of them.

 

[Vince1022]

Hello all,

Perhaps some of you can help me out with this issue. In a nutshell, I understand that songs such as Our God is an Awesome God , Amazing Grace (My chains are Gone), and God’s Gonna Cut You Down are not allowed in Mass and should not be played (the last one was a joke… )

Where does the Catholic Church teach this? Or where did you get this idea? Thanks.

 

[NPC]

I can’t comment on all of the hymns you mentioned. However, I don’t think there’s a specific list of hymns which have been banned - but there are guidelines with regard to what is suitable and what is not. Ultimately, the purpose of a hymn is the glorification of God and then the sanctification of the people - and one example of what the purpose of a hymn is not: the function of a hymn is not to make the people happy or feel good!

A good place to start is to look at the words of the hymn. Are they theologically sound? If not, then the hymn is not suitable - it is as simple as that. Some hymns appear on the surface to be suitable, though they may not be - especially some that appear to have a Eucharistic theme, but reading further into the verses you may find that the theology denies the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Such hymns are not suitable. So, it is very important to focus on the words - not all Protestant hymns are incompatible with Catholic theology, so don’t immediately dismiss them; hymns that are catechetical are good, as are those which lead the people spiritually deeper into the sacred mysteries being celebrated.

There is also the question of “horizontal” versus “vertical” music. Music with a horizontal focus tends not to be directed at God, but rather a conversation about God with other members of the congregation: this may be the trouble with Our God is an Awesome God. Who is one singing to when one sings this hymns? It seems to me that it’s the congregation singing to the congregation…not the purpose of a hymn. There is a good article HERE regarding the “Ritus Narcissus” (i.e. singing to ourselves and celebrating ourselves).

If the hymn survives in terms of its theological suitability, being directed at God, etc. etc., then it is good to consider if it is suitable musically. There is a “sacred style” - and the most perfect is Gregorian Chant followed by sacred polyphony. Music which is too closely related to secular “pop” music should not be used in the Mass - many church choirs (including my own at the time I took over as director) are of the (misguided) opinion that church music today has to be upbeat, or that church music need not necessarily be of a different style to secular music. But the point is that when sacred music is clouded by secular influences, the sacredness of it is eroded - how are peoples minds being lifted to God in the Mass when they are bombarded with exactly the same style of music that was playing in the car on the way to Mass, or which was on the radio at breakfast time? Sacred music necessarily has to be different - the function of sacred music demands this. Related to the actual style of the music is the instruments which are required to accompany the piece - not all instruments are suitable for use at Mass. The Church teaches that the most suitable instrument for accompanying the voice is the organ. Instruments which are immediately associated with secular music should not be used.

I suggest that you go to the Adoremus website and browse some of their articles - there are many good articles on what constitutes “good” church music.

 

[Cat]

Hello all,

Perhaps some of you can help me out with this issue. In a nutshell, I understand that songs such as Our God is an Awesome God , Amazing Grace (My chains are Gone), and God’s Gonna Cut You Down are not allowed in Mass and should not be played (the last one was a joke… )

Songs like that are forbidden, but what is the reason why they are restricted? I figure it’s because Jesus is truly present there in Eucharist. But then I ask myself “Would Jesus really care if we clap in His presence?” So you see, I can’t find a satisfactory answer for myself.

What do you guys say? What’s the reason behind such songs not going into the Mass? (although I have heard “Amazing Grace (My Chains are gone)” in Mass before )

These songs are not forbidden.

A bishop can forbid certain songs or composers in his diocese; e.g., in our diocese, Richard Wagner’s Wedding March is not allowed in Catholic weddings because it is part of a theatrical work.

Perhaps in some dioceses, the songs you listed have been forbidden by the bishops.

But these songs are not on some kind of official Church “banned” list. As far as I know, there is no such list. I often wish there was, so that the debates over songs like Amazing Grace could end once and for all.

As for your question about whether Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament cares about clapping in His Presence, I tend to agree with you. I think a lot of people assume that Jesus is a lot meaner than He really is. The Bible makes it clear that God looks at the heart and the attitude of the heart. If a person is sincerely worshipping the Lord and has an attitude of awe and respect, or joy and exultation, and uses clapping to express that awe, respect, joy, and exultation, I honestly don’t think the Lord will condemn clapping.

There are many religions in which clapping is used to signify respect for the god (e.g., Buddhism).

I think in the U.S., clapping has a dubious reputation because so many people associate it with theater and sport. It’s too bad.

These are just my opinions, BTW, and I’m not trying to make an argument using Church documents. I know that there are various Church leaders who have expressed their personal opinions about clapping, which are negative, but as far as I know, there is no official “forbidding” of clapping in the Mass. Just suggestions, and again, I wish that there was a specific dictum forbidding or allowing clapping so that the arguments could end once and for all.

 

[laszlo]

In some cases, but not in all. For example, one could take “Dies Irae” (or something similar), turn it modern or ‘retro’ and play it at Mass. There’s no faulty theology but it’s still forbidden, at least as far as I know.

That example was pretty extreme, yes, but it illustrates my point.

Everything is forbidden what is not allowed by the local bishop or the Apostolic See.

The Hungarians get approval in the seventies from the Apostolic see to their vernacular hymnal (collected in the 1920’s , some hymns back from the 16th century); the traditionalists cry that they are man made, banal, based on imperfect theology and no equivalent to the Gregorian chant.

Only the local bishop and the Apostolic see is the appropriate judge.

 

[pnewton]

Everything is forbidden what is not allowed by the local bishop or the Apostolic See.

.

Just as there is no list of banned songs, there is no list of approved, or allowable songs. There are a few exceptions, like the one for Wagner’s Wedding March listed above. The Catholic Church has guidelines for music, not lists.

 

[JHow]

…As for your question about whether Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament cares about clapping in His Presence, I tend to agree with you. I think a lot of people assume that Jesus is a lot meaner than He really is. The Bible makes it clear that God looks at the heart and the attitude of the heart. If a person is sincerely worshipping the Lord and has an attitude of awe and respect, or joy and exultation, and uses clapping to express that awe, respect, joy, and exultation, I honestly don’t think the Lord will condemn clapping.

There are many religions in which clapping is used to signify respect for the god (e.g., Buddhism).

I think in the U.S., clapping has a dubious reputation because so many people associate it with theater and sport. It’s too bad.
…

I think He would be most honored if people clapped in time with the music. It is this last bit where clapping breaks down, literally, in my view.

 

[Vince1022]

Hello all,

Perhaps some of you can help me out with this issue. In a nutshell, I understand that songs such as Our God is an Awesome God , Amazing Grace (My chains are Gone), and God’s Gonna Cut You Down are not allowed in Mass and should not be played (the last one was a joke… )

Songs like that are forbidden, but what is the reason why they are restricted? I figure it’s because Jesus is truly present there in Eucharist. But then I ask myself “Would Jesus really care if we clap in His presence?” So you see, I can’t find a satisfactory answer for myself.

What do you guys say? What’s the reason behind such songs not going into the Mass? (although I have heard “Amazing Grace (My Chains are gone)” in Mass before )

Where do you get the idea they are not allowed or forbidden?

 

[Sarabande]

Where do you get the idea they are not allowed or forbidden?

Not speaking for the OP, but perhaps the parish or the diocese do not allow it and thus the assumption that it is forbidden? I freelance (musician) in many of the parishes in my diocese and I know that in many, if not all, of the parishes music like, “Our God is an Awesome God” would not be used or allowed. BUT, I also know that the diocese hasn’t exactly forbidden it either (having known what the DofW of the diocese wants, it’s not encouraged as he tries to follow along closely with what the documents require), so there are a few parishes who might use music like that.

 

[benedictgal]

Perhaps this might shed some light. According to Liturgiam Authenticam (promulgated by the soon to be beatified Pope John Paul II):

1. Sung texts and liturgical hymns have a particular importance and efficacy. Especially on Sunday, the “Day of the Lord”, the singing of the faithful gathered for the celebration of Holy Mass, no less than the prayers, the readings and the homily, express in an authentic way the message of the Liturgy while fostering a sense of common faith and communion in charity.78

If they are used widely by the faithful, they should remain relatively fixed so that confusion among the people may be avoided. Within five years from the publication of this Instruction, the Conferences of Bishops, necessarily in collaboration with the national and diocesan Commissions and with other experts, shall provide for the publication of a directory or repertory of texts intended for liturgical singing. This document shall be transmitted for the necessary recognitio to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.

According to a power point presentation made by the USCCB’s former Committee on Liturgy (now Worship):

Individual songs should be consonant with Catholic teaching and free from theological error; and

The repertoire of liturgical songs in any given setting should not manifest a collective bias against Catholic theological elements.

The power point also lists several items to consider when choosing music:’

Is there a sufficient attention to the Trinity and to the Trinitarian structure of Catholic beliefs and teachings? Do our liturgical songs fail at times to present the Trinity as the central mystery of the Christian faith? Does the language used in referring to the Persons of the Trinity contribute at times to a lack of clarity? Is there a reluctance to use “Father” for the first person of the Blessed Trinity? Is the relationship between Jesus and the Father stressed sufficiently? Are there times when the word “God” is placed in a sentence where one would expect to find “Father” or “God the Father” since the reference is precisely to the relationship between the first and second persons of the Trinity?

Is there an obscured presentation of the centrality of Christ in salvation history and an insufficient emphasis on the divinity of Christ? Do our liturgical songs present Jesus as the culmination of the Old Testament and the fulfillment of God’s plan for our salvation? Is the indispensable place of the incarnation in the plan of salvation sufficiently presented? Is Jesus the Savior often overshadowed by Jesus the teacher, model, friend, and brother? Is there an appropriate balance? Is there an imbalance in our emphasis on the humanity or divinity of Jesus Christ? At times, can we detect a negative undertone in speaking of the divine nature of Christ, as if divinity is equated with being “distant and unreal.”

An indistinct treatment of the ecclesial context of Catholic beliefs and magisterial teachings?

Do the texts give insufficient emphasis to God’s initiative in the world with a corresponding overemphasis on human action?

Is there a sufficient recognition of the transforming effects of grace?

Now, the USCCB submitted the directory back in 2006; however, it is still being reviewed by the CDWDS. Nonetheless, I believe that these guidelines could very well provide parishes with some basis on judging whether or not a song is suitable for use in the Mass.

 

[PabloPira]

I think “forbidden” is a very strong word. However, I dont believe that everything is allowed. Let’s look at the wording in Musicam Sacram… (emphasis added)

1. In selecting the kind of sacred music to be used, whether it be for the choir or for the people, the capacities of those who are to sing the music must be taken into account**. No kind of sacred music is prohibited from liturgical actions by the Church as long as it corresponds to the spirit of the liturgical celebration itself and the nature of its individual parts** ] and does not hinder the active participation of the people.

Well… let’s go back to amazing grace… Let’s say you are in charge of the choir and you think that amazing grace should be heard on this particular Sunday. Then you have to ask yourself… “does this song correspond to any individual part of the liturgy?”

There are other “tests” you can run on any song you want to use. A good place to get your questions is Tra Le sollecitudine:

1. Sacred music should consequently possess, in the highest degree, the qualities proper to the liturgy, and in particular sanctity and goodness of form, which will spontaneously produce the final quality of universality.

It must be holy, and must, therefore, exclude all profanity not only in itself, but in the manner in which it is presented by those who execute it.

**It must be true art, **for otherwise it will be impossible for it to exercise on the minds of those who listen to it that efficacy which the Church aims at obtaining in admitting into her liturgy the art of musical sounds.

But it must, at the same time, be universal in the sense that while every nation is permitted to admit into its ecclesiastical compositions those special forms which may be said to constitute its native music, still these forms must be subordinated in such a manner to the general characteristics of sacred music **that nobody of any nation may receive an impression other than good on hearing them. **

Amazing grace is indeed a beautiful song (true art) … however, I would not know when to sing it during Holy Mass. Therefore I would not use it.

JP
JP

 

[MarkThompson]

Amazing grace is indeed a beautiful song (true art) … however, I would not know when to sing it during Holy Mass. Therefore I would not use it.

JP
JP

What about as a recessional? I.e., not technically a part of the Mass, and with no rubrics governing it? That would be the test of whether you actually object to the song itself, or whether, as you say, you genuinely think it’s fine but just doesn’t “fit” with the structure of the Mass qua liturgy.

 

[pnewton]

Amazing grace is indeed a beautiful song (true art) … however, I would not know when to sing it during Holy Mass. Therefore I would not use it.

On the other hand, I use Amazing Grace and do so in good conscience that it conforms to the norms of the Church. Tra le sollecitudini, while espousing good principles, does not take into account more recent developments in the liturgy, most notably, the vernacular. Personally, I do not go back further than Musicam Sacram for that reason, and also look to the guidance of the USCCB in Sing to the Lord. That is just my criteria and guidelines and I will not argue for or against their use.

 

[Vince1022]

Perhaps this might shed some light. According to Liturgiam Authenticam (promulgated by the soon to be beatified Pope John Paul II):

According to a power point presentation made by the USCCB’s former Committee on Liturgy (now Worship):

The power point also lists several items to consider when choosing music:’

Now, the USCCB submitted the directory back in 2006; however, it is still being reviewed by the CDWDS. Nonetheless, I believe that these guidelines could very well provide parishes with some basis on judging whether or not a song is suitable for use in the Mass.

So how does this answer the OP’s question about specific songs? Do the references you cite mention these songs? If not…then what is the answer to the OP’s question? Thanks.

 

[DaveBj]

Where did you get the idea that such songs are barred?

I have sung “Amazing Grace” many times in Parishes, including before Vatican II.

You may sing any appropriate religious music. It need not be written by, or even commonly performed by, a Roman Catholic or in Catholic Churches.

OP’s reference was not to the 19th-century hymn “Amazing Grace,” but to the contemporary gospel song “Amazing Grace (My Chains Are Gone),” which adds a chorus about the singer’s chains being gone. A performance of this song can be seen here: youtube.com/watch?v=Y-4NFvI5U9w

My [favorable] views an “Amazing Grace” can be found on other threads; no need to reiterate them here.

DaveBj

 

[coolduude]

So how does this answer the OP’s question about specific songs? Do the references you cite mention these songs? If not…then what is the answer to the OP’s question? Thanks.

I was using those songs to show what ought to be left out of Mass. Those songs, and ones similar, should not be played IMO. The references are helpful.