Question on Papal Infailability

[windlessuser]

Came along this while trying to find material to explain the papacy to a non catholic freind of mine.

On December 8th 1854, Pope Pius IX spoke ex cathedra and declared that Mary had been conceived without original sin. Many people from all sides questioned if The pope alone without council, decide and proclaim dogma? This was the great topic of Vatican I which was attended by 54 cardinals and 140 bishops, But the pope on his own declared that Mary was immaculately conceived.

Some drama occurred after that, and in 1870, another council was called to address the papal infailability issue.

At the first balloting on july 13 1870, 451 council fathers voted in favor of the definition, 88 opposed it and 62 accepted it with reservation. Many who opposed simply thought the time wasnt right. AFter futher discussion, some were still uncertian, but rather than to create scandal 55 bishops left rome with permission from the pope.

On the Final vote on july 18, 533 voted for the doctrine of infailability with only 2 opposing it.

Now my question is, Was the pope always infallible or at the point the vote was finished? And if the pope was Always infailible, how do we explain the Great Schism in the middle ages, where we had not 1, 2 but THREE(3) popes ruling at the same time, excommunicating each other?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Came along this while trying to find material to explain the papacy to a non catholic freind of mine.

On December 8th 1854, Pope Pius IX spoke ex cathedra and declared that Mary had been conceived without original sin. Many people from all sides questioned if The pope alone without council, decide and proclaim dogma? This was the great topic of Vatican I which was attended by 54 cardinals and 140 bishops, But the pope on his own declared that Mary was immaculately conceived.

Some drama occurred after that, and in 1870, another council was called to address the papal infailability issue.

At the first balloting on july 13 1870, 451 council fathers voted in favor of the definition, 88 opposed it and 62 accepted it with reservation. Many who opposed simply thought the time wasnt right. AFter futher discussion, some were still uncertian, but rather than to create scandal 55 bishops left rome with permission from the pope.

On the Final vote on july 18, 533 voted for the doctrine of infailability with only 2 opposing it.

Now my question is, Was the pope always infallible or at the point the vote was finished? And if the pope was Always infailible, how do we explain the Great Schism in the middle ages, where we had not 1, 2 but THREE(3) popes ruling at the same time, excommunicating each other?

Answer: The charism of infallibility always existed. Dogma/ doctrine does not ‘come into being’ only at the time when it is defined–it is authoritatively defined as what it has always been because there has arisen some question which necessitates it having to be made perfectly clear as defined dogma.
BUT . .the Pope is not ‘always infallible’ (nor is he impeccable) and neither the Great Schism nor the antipopes have anything to do with the charism of infallibility.

 

[Scoobyshme]

Came along this while trying to find material to explain the papacy to a non catholic freind of mine.

On December 8th 1854, Pope Pius IX spoke ex cathedra and declared that Mary had been conceived without original sin. Many people from all sides questioned if The pope alone without council, decide and proclaim dogma? This was the great topic of Vatican I which was attended by 54 cardinals and 140 bishops, But the pope on his own declared that Mary was immaculately conceived.

Some drama occurred after that, and in 1870, another council was called to address the papal infailability issue.

At the first balloting on july 13 1870, 451 council fathers voted in favor of the definition, 88 opposed it and 62 accepted it with reservation. Many who opposed simply thought the time wasnt right. AFter futher discussion, some were still uncertian, but rather than to create scandal 55 bishops left rome with permission from the pope.

On the Final vote on july 18, 533 voted for the doctrine of infailability with only 2 opposing it.

Now my question is, Was the pope always infallible or at the point the vote was finished? And if the pope was Always infailible, how do we explain the Great Schism in the middle ages, where we had not 1, 2 but THREE(3) popes ruling at the same time, excommunicating each other?

The Pope was always infallible. The Church, from time to time, “formalizes” existing doctrines by “declaring” them. Usually, it does this in order to clear up some confusion with a particular doctrine. It doesn’t make up brand new doctrines out of thin air like Martin Luther did with his Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura. Remember, the Deposit of Faith was handed to the Apostles, and Jesus instructed them to teach it to their successors, etc. Jesus also promised that the “gates of hell” would never “prevail” over His Church. If the Church EVER taught doctrinal error, then the “gates of hell” would, indeed, have prevailed over His Church. This would imply that He was lying, which would, in turn, mean that He wasn’t God. I believe He was telling the truth, and the Church has NEVER taught doctrinal error, nor will it.

 

[FCEGM]

Two helpful articles:

bringyou.to/apologetics/a44.htm

bringyou.to/apologetics/a47.htm

 

[Just_Lurking]

On December 8th 1854, Pope Pius IX spoke ex cathedra and declared that Mary had been conceived without original sin. Many people from all sides questioned if The pope alone without council, decide and proclaim dogma? This was the great topic of Vatican I which was attended by 54 cardinals and 140 bishops, But the pope on his own declared that Mary was immaculately conceived.

I don’t think this is historically accurate. Pope Pius IX carefully consulted all of the Catholic bishops (as detailed in Ineffabilis Deus) and also chose a point of dogma which was already well-agreed upon. In consequence, there was little fanfare or discussion about the infallibility of the dogma of the immaculate conception.

During Vatican I, some of the council fathers wanted to include consultation of all the bishops as a part of the requirements for exercising papal infallibility, but Pope Pius IX overrode their concerns and added the infamous “ex esse” clause.

 

[neophyte]

…Now my question is, Was the pope always infallible or at the point the vote was finished?

The Pope has always been protected by the charism of infallibility under the conditions described by the dogma.

…And if the pope was Always infailible, how do we explain the Great Schism in the middle ages, where we had not 1, 2 but THREE(3) popes ruling at the same time, excommunicating each other?

The was never more than one Pope. The others were poseurs. Schism is caused by the hard-heartedness of the schismatics.

 

[windlessuser]

AH i see. Thank you all for the speedy Responses.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Also, if it helps, I did a paper on the Great Schism for college master’s class…you can read it here.

 

[windlessuser]

Though this is a non-issue. What would have happened if the council had voted opposing the dogma of papal infailability after he made the declaration that Mary was immaculately conceived?

 

[Just_Lurking]

Though this is a non-issue. What would have happened if the council had voted opposing the dogma of papal infailability after he made the declaration that Mary was immaculately conceived?

Pius IX would have removed all the bishops who voted against it, replaced them with men who supported him, and taken a new vote. He was quite intent on being declared infallible.

 

[windlessuser]

Pius IX would have removed all the bishops who voted against it, replaced them with men who supported him, and taken a new vote. He was quite intent on being declared infallible.

Interesting way of looking at it, But I doubt he’d have done that out of fear of revolt…It has happened in the past.

 

[Just_Lurking]

Interesting way of looking at it, But I doubt he’d have done that out of fear of revolt…It has happened in the past.

It happened at Vatican I too. That’s where the “Old Catholics” (see here) come from.

 

[RedBert]

The Pope was always infallible. The Church, from time to time, “formalizes” existing doctrines by “declaring” them. Usually, it does this in order to clear up some confusion with a particular doctrine. .

Is that the way the Canonization of the New Testament worked?

Was it already widely accepted and the Catholic Church , just gave it’s stamp of approval?