Question on Purgatory, Answered!

[Techno2000]

There may be forgiveness in the age to come except for the sin against the Holy Spirit, where there will be none.

Reuben

Right, and if Jesus wants to save mortal sinners after death he can.

“In the lowest and most painful (degree of Purgatory)… here there are the sinners who have committed terrible crimes during life and whose death surprised them in that state. It was almost a miracle that they were saved, and often by the prayers of holy parents or other pious persons. Sometimes they did not even have time to confess their sins and the world thought them lost, but God, whose mercy is infinite, gave them at the moment of death the contrition necessary for their salvation on account of one or more good actions which they performed during life.” (Revelation from a soul in Purgatory to Sister M. de L.C, from “An Unpublished Manuscript on Purgatory”)
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=6253

 

[benhur]

This should help re mortal/venial and origin of such:
catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/mortal-and-venial-sin

Took a look at all three sites thank you.

Still leaves one question on Mac though, of trying to blot out a mortal sin, which your one article said could be idolotry and covetting, which the Mac men did. The rest I understand.

 

[ptisme]

Took a look at all three sites thank you.

Still leaves one question on Mac though, of trying to blot out a mortal sin, which your one article said could be idolotry and covetting, which the Mac men did. The rest I understand.

I’m sorry, I don’t understand your question… Could you be more clear and give me the verses from Mac? thx PT

 

[Telstar]

Still leaves one question on Mac though, of trying to blot out a mortal sin, which your one article said could be idolotry and covetting, which the Mac men did. The rest I understand.

Just because something “could be” a mortal sin, doesn’t necessarily mean that it is. It all depends on the circumstances surrounding it, including the understanding and the intention of the sinner when the act was committed. You keep going back to 2 Maccabees and claim that the Jews that were killed in the battle had committed a ‘mortal’ sin. First of all, I don’t think the Jews of that time used the same terms to indicate the severity of different sins that Catholics use, today. But, they did seem to realize that some sins might still be forgiven in the next life. In the link that ptisme posted, that passage in 2 Maccabees was specifically addressed:"II Maccabees 12:39-46, which was written ca. 125 BC, gives us an excellent historical backdrop that can shed light on the importance of our Lord’s words in Matt. 12:32. As the story goes, Judas Maccabeus and his army collected the bodies of some fallen comrades killed in battle. When they discovered these men were carrying “sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear” (vs. 40), Judas and his companions discerned they had died as a punishment for sin.

Therefore, Judas and his men turned to prayer beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out… He also took up a collection… and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably… Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

Whether one accepts the canonicity of I and II Maccabees really doesn’t matter. Whether a person accepts the inspiration of these books or not does not change the fact that they give us crucial information about the faith and practice of the Jews shortly before the time of Christ from a purely historical perspective. The Jews believed there were some sins that could be forgiven in the next life (analogous to what Catholics call venial sins), and that there were some sins that could not be so forgiven (analogous to what Catholics call mortal sins). That’s the historical record."
Their intent in praying for the fallen soldiers, was to ask that they would be forgiven for their sins because they had fought bravely in the battle against the enemies of God. Even though they were dismayed when they found the talismans, they were hoping that God’s mercy would still cover those sins. If they didn’t think it was possible for them to be forgiven, they would not have even bothered to pray for them, much less send alms to Jerusalem for a sacrifice to be made in their names.

This is why this passage is important. It indicates that sins can be forgiven in the next life, but it also begs the question of how those souls who die with the stains of sin on their souls would still be able to enter Heaven, if nothing defiled can ever enter it. There has to be a way to purify those souls. Catholics believe that place of purification is Purgatory. It’s the final place where we are washed clean in the Blood of Jesus, before we enter Heaven.

 

[benhur]

"I confess before thee, O Lord our God, and the God of our fathers, that my cure is in thy hands, and my death is in thy hands; if it be thy good pleasure, heal me with a perfect healing: but if I die, , “let my death be for the pardon”, forgiveness, and atonement of all the sins, iniquities, and transgressions, which I have sinned, acted perversely in, and transgressed before thee; and give me my portion in paradise, and justify me “in the world to come”, which is hidden for the righteous.’’

“Lightfoot (Hor. Heb.) explains the double negation by reference to the Jewish legal doctrine that, in contrast to other sins, profaning the name of God could be expiated only by death, unpardonable in this life”

Commentaries from biblehub on Matt2:32 biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/12-32.htm

Perhaps Jesus was addressing Jewish tradition/doctrine of hope of forgiveness in the next life (that was not received in this life) and Jesus was saying no way for this sin of blasphemy. Was he closing this Jewish “loophole”" just for this sin or all sin (venial and mortal) ?

The double negation of pardon (this life and next) may or may not mean sins not "bound’ here are forgiven in the next.

For sure sins are forgive here and at our judgement day.(What is bound here is bound in heaven which purgatory seems to bypass).)

For sure the bottom line is the sin of blasphemy is never forgiven as in gospel of Mark also.

 

[Reuben_J]

For sure sins are forgive here and at our judgement day.(What is bound here is bound in heaven which purgatory seems to bypass).)

How are sins being forgiven if this no repentance? Jesus is very clear on this – one needs to repent.

Just curious. Since you do not believe in the existence of purgatory, does that mean there are only heaven and hell then?

The doctrine of purgatory is quite clear. Those who do not deserve heaven but not hell either, these have to undergo purification, as in 1 Cor 3:15, so that they may be saved.

There are certain sins being unrepented that we bring along to death but yet not mortal sins.

I may tell a white lie. I do not want to go to grandma’s tonight for the usual stopping by as I want to see my girlfriend. So I tell her I have to finish my homework which happen needs to be done but which grandma’s would normally approve of. So I will finish the home work and then see my girlfriend and thus unable to come to her place. I have no intention of telling her the truth. Would I be sent to hell for that since I have sinned nevertheless?

In the doctrine of purgatory, no, I will not, because that sin is considered a venial sin but I would nevertheless need to be purified by fire before I can enter heaven.

Reuben

 

[benhur]

How are sins being forgiven if this no repentance? Jesus is very clear on this – one needs to repent.

Understand. As long as we have been discussing Jewish traditions, how about where once a year they sacrificed for sins not covered yet out of ignorance or unconfession ? Calvary can’t cover imperfect repentance or confession ? It seems the Israelites had it covered with a sacrfice ,which apparently later evolved, changed, to their death being also expiatory(at least for blasphemy). That latter part is quite in error.

Just curious. Since you do not believe in the existence of purgatory, does that mean there are only heaven and hell then?

As I believe the CC does also, not as a place. I do not think of it as a state either. An event yes, a judging, yes. That is more scripturally clear. In particular what we call the judgement seat of Christ, for believers (as opposed to the great white throne judgement for non believers). It is also not a “last” confessional or bindingor ridding of venial sins in the traditional sense. It is a judging, review of our works done in Christ, the good, bad and ugly of them. with rewards to follow. It is not necessarily a prerequisite to entry into heaven, but yes for assignment of duties in the new kingdom.

The doctrine of purgatory is quite clear. Those who do not deserve heaven but not hell either, these have to undergo purification, as in 1 Cor 3:15, so that they may be saved.

Sorry Reuben, but we find that to be a poor interpretation of that verse and has nothing to do with “deserving” heaven, for they may be in heaven already, and or may have been in there for quite some time already. Again, 1 Cor.strongly suggests a judgement of Christian works, not venial sins or confession or repentance. One has to determine when the judgement seat of Christ as found in revelations takes place. Many think it is at the end of this age. Paul says that at death we go to be with the Lord. Not exactly sure when this firey judgement takes place (at death right away, or at the end of this age) Either way we go straight to the Lord…

There are certain sins being unrepented that we bring along to death but yet not mortal sins.

Well, maybe the Israelites had a foreshadow of a truth, that those get left behind with the old man at death. Hence the need for this new life, the new man in Christ (which water baptism signifies). Certainly Paul’s old man (where sin resides),not mine or yours, will go beyond the dust of this earth much less approach the pearly gates.

I may tell a white lie. I do not want to go to grandma’s tonight for the usual stopping by as I want to see my girlfriend. So I tell her I have to finish my homework which happen needs to be done but which grandma’s would normally approve of. So I will finish the home work and then see my girlfriend and thus unable to come to her place. I have no intention of telling her the truth. Would I be sent to hell for that since I have sinned nevertheless?

In the doctrine of purgatory, no, I will not, because that sin is considered a venial sin but I would nevertheless need to be purified by fire before I can enter heaven.

Sorry, I see a different efficacy to the Blood of Christ.

Tell me, do you suffer as if by fire, every time you confess to the priest now (certainly regret,shame,a humbling etc) and perform a penance ? (Of course it fits if you do what many used to do like scourge themselves, crawl on stones, etc., etc). Then why would you in purgatory, before the Lord their ? Why don’t we just say a bunch of Our Fathers or Hail Mary’s in purgatory as penance ? (for the undisciplined that might be a grueling fire).

I think CC purgatory, at least in practice, goes beyond confessing or penance for venial sins, and is blatant self expiating not Christ expiating, a works.It does not help to say only by His grace is the opportunity and ability given. That is like saying the one beating himself in penance does it by God’s grace.

Again, the actual definition by CC is much stricter (better) than the practice, if I recall it correctly.

Blessings

 

[Techno2000]

I think CC purgatory, at least in practice, goes beyond confessing or penance for venial sins, and is blatant self expiating not Christ expiating, a works.It does not help to say only by His grace is the opportunity and ability given. That is like saying the one beating himself in penance does it by God’s grace.

Again, the actual definition by CC is much stricter (better) than the practice, if I recall it correctly.

Blessings

catholictreasury.info/books/treatise_on_purgatory/

 

[benhur]

catholictreasury.info/books/treatise_on_purgatory/

Took a look thanks. Seems to be a lot of words to describe the judgement seat of Christ. Tough also to see how indulgences can change the inevitable need for transformation and judgement.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Took a look thanks. Seems to be a lot of words to describe the judgement seat of Christ. Tough also to see how indulgences can change the inevitable need for transformation and judgement.

An ‘indulgence’ is basically an act of sacrificial charity or penance taken while alive to (hopefully) transform one a little bit more here on earth before the transition to the next life.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states the following:

"An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishment due for their sins." The Church does this not just to aid Christians, "but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity" (CCC 1478).

The Catechism of St. Pius X states the following:

124 Q. What is an Indulgence?
A. An Indulgence is the remission of the temporal punishment due on account of our sins which have been already pardoned as far as their guilt is concerned — a remission accorded by the Church outside the sacrament of Penance.

125 Q. From whom has the Church received the power to grant Indulgences?
A. The Church has received the power to grant Indulgences from Jesus Christ.

126 Q. In what way does the Church by means of Indulgences remit this temporal punishment?
A. The Church by means of Indulgences remits this temporal punishment by applying to us the superabundant merits of Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Virgin and of the Saints, which constitute what is known as the Treasure of the Church.

127 Q. Who has the power to grant Indulgences?
A. The Pope alone has the power to grant Indulgences in the whole Church, and the Bishop in his own diocese, according to the faculty given him by the Pope.

128 Q. How many kinds of Indulgences are there?
A. Indulgences are of two kinds: plenary and partial.

129 Q. What is a plenary Indulgence?
A. A plenary Indulgence is that by which the whole temporal punishment due to our sins is remitted. Hence, if one were to die after having gained such an Indulgence, he would go straight to Heaven, being, as he is, perfectly exempt from the pains of Purgatory.

130 Q. What is a partial Indulgence?
A. A partial Indulgence is that by which is remitted only a part of the temporal punishment due to our sins.

131 Q. Why does the Church grant Indulgences?
A. In granting Indulgences the Church intends to aid our incapacity to expiate all the temporal punishment in this world, by enabling us to obtain by means of works of piety and Christian charity that which in the first ages Christians gained by the rigour of Canonical penances.

132 Q. What is meant by an Indulgence of forty or a hundred days or of seven years, and the like?
A. By an Indulgence of forty or a hundred days, or of seven years and the like, is meant the remission of so much of the temporal punishment as would have been paid by penances of forty or a hundred days, or seven years, anciently prescribed in the Church.

133 Q. What value should we set on Indulgences?
A. We should set the greatest value on Indulgences because by them we satisfy the justice of God and obtain possession of Heaven sooner and more easily.

134 Q. Which are the conditions necessary to gain Indulgences?
A. The conditions necessary to gain Indulgences are: (1) The state of grace (at least at the final completion of the work), and freedom from those venial faults, the punishment of which we wish to cancel; (2) The fulfilment of all the works the Church enjoins in order to gain the Indulgence; (3) The intention to gain it.

135 Q. Can Indulgences be applied also to the souls in Purgatory?
A. Yes, Indulgences can be applied also to the souls in Purgatory, when he who grants them says that they may be so applied.

136 Q. What is a Jubilee?
A. A Jubilee, which as a rule is granted every twenty-five years, is a Plenary Indulgence to which are attached many privileges and special concessions, such as that of being able to obtain absolution from certain reserved sins and from censures, and the commutation of certain vows.

 

[Techno2000]

Took a look thanks. Seems to be a lot of words to describe the judgement seat of Christ. Tough also to see how indulgences can change the inevitable need for transformation and judgement.

Prayer to the Shoulder Wound of Jesus

It is related in the annals of Clairvaux that St. Bernard asked Our Lord which was His greatest unrecorded suffering and Our Lord answered: “I had on My Shoulder, while I bore My Cross on the Way of Sorrows, a grievous Wound, which was more painful than the others and which is not recorded by men. Honor this Wound with thy devotion and I will grant thee whatsoever thou dost ask through Its virtue and merit. And in regard to all those who shall venerate this Wound, I will remit to them all their venial sins and will no longer remember their mortal sins.”

This revelation and promise of Our Dear Savior is another proof of His unlimited mercy. You are urged to say these prayers daily and to promulgate this prayer on a continuous basis, so that others may share in this blessing.

The Prayer

O Loving Jesus, meek Lamb of God, I a miserable sinner, salute and worship the most Sacred Wound of Thy Shoulder on which Thou didst bear Thy heavy Cross, which so tore Thy Flesh and laid bare Thy Bones as to inflict on Thee an anguish greater than any other Wound of Thy Most Blessed Body. I adore Thee, O Jesus most sorrowful; I praise and glorify Thee and give Thee thanks for this most sacred and painful Wound, beseeching Thee by that exceeding pain and by the crushing burden of Thy heavy Cross to be merciful to me, a sinner, to forgive me all my mortal and venial sins, and to lead me on towards Heaven along the Way of Thy Cross. Amen.
Imprimatur: Thomas D. Beven, Bishop of Springfield, Ma.

Pope Eugenius III, at the earnest request of St. Bernard, has granted three thousand years Indulgence to all who with a contrite heart, recite the Lord’s Prayer and Hail Mary 3 times, in honor of the Wound on the Shoulder of Our Blessed Redeemer.

brizek.com/prayer/pieta.htm#shwound

 

[Telstar]

Prayer to the Shoulder Wound of Jesus

It is related in the annals of Clairvaux that St. Bernard asked Our Lord which was His greatest unrecorded suffering and Our Lord answered: “I had on My Shoulder, while I bore My Cross on the Way of Sorrows, a grievous Wound, which was more painful than the others and which is not recorded by men. Honor this Wound with thy devotion and I will grant thee whatsoever thou dost ask through Its virtue and merit. And in regard to all those who shall venerate this Wound, I will remit to them all their venial sins and will no longer remember their mortal sins.”

This revelation and promise of Our Dear Savior is another proof of His unlimited mercy. You are urged to say these prayers daily and to promulgate this prayer on a continuous basis, so that others may share in this blessing.

The Prayer

O Loving Jesus, meek Lamb of God, I a miserable sinner, salute and worship the most Sacred Wound of Thy Shoulder on which Thou didst bear Thy heavy Cross, which so tore Thy Flesh and laid bare Thy Bones as to inflict on Thee an anguish greater than any other Wound of Thy Most Blessed Body. I adore Thee, O Jesus most sorrowful; I praise and glorify Thee and give Thee thanks for this most sacred and painful Wound, beseeching Thee by that exceeding pain and by the crushing burden of Thy heavy Cross to be merciful to me, a sinner, to forgive me all my mortal and venial sins, and to lead me on towards Heaven along the Way of Thy Cross. Amen.
Imprimatur: Thomas D. Beven, Bishop of Springfield, Ma.

Pope Eugenius III, at the earnest request of St. Bernard, has granted three thousand years Indulgence to all who with a contrite heart, recite the Lord’s Prayer and Hail Mary 3 times, in honor of the Wound on the Shoulder of Our Blessed Redeemer.

brizek.com/prayer/pieta.htm#shwound

That’s a perfect example of why indulgences are a good impetus toward sanctity. They encourage some of us to say prayers, or perform other acts of piety, either for the benefit of someone else, or for ourselves. Those pious acts and prayers are efficacious to our souls whether there is an indulgence attached to them or not. The indulgence is just an added bonus that the Church grants to us for doing those kinds of things. Personally, I rarely ever think about saying any prayer, just for the sake of the indulgences attached to it. But, for some people, the indulgences give them even more incentive to pray. As long as they are praying, they will still gain grace from saying those beautiful prayers, either way.

I got my first copy of the “Pieta” prayer booklet way back in the early 70s. Of all the prayers in it, there were a couple that really touched my heart. That particular one was my favorite of all. My second favorite was this prayer to St. Joseph that can be said as a novena (which doesn’t have indulgences, but does have promises attached to it)rayer to Saint Joseph over 1900 years old:

“O Saint Joseph, whose protection is so great, so strong, so prompt before the Throne of God, I place in you all my interests and desires. O Saint Joseph, do assist me by your powerful intercession and obtain for me from your Divine Son all spiritual blessings through Jesus Christ Our Lord; so that having engaged here below your Heavenly power I may offer my thanksgiving and homage to the most Loving of Fathers. O Saint Joseph, I never weary contemplating you and Jesus asleep in your arms. I dare not approach while He reposes near your heart. Press Him in my name and kiss His fine Head for me, and ask Him to return the kiss when I draw my dying breath. Saint Joseph, Patron of departing souls, pray for us. Amen.”

Say for nine consecutive mornings for anything you may desire. It has seldom been known to fail.

This prayer was found in the fiftieth year of Our Lord Jesus Christ. In 1500’s it was sent by the Pope to Emperor Charles when he was going into battle.

Whoever reads this prayer or hears it or carries it, will never die a sudden death, nor be drowned, nor will poison take effect on them. They will not fall into the hands of the enemy nor be burned in any fire, nor will they be defeated in battle.

Make this prayer known everywhere.

Imprimatur
Most Rev. George W. Ahr
Bishop of Trenton
These prayers are both beautiful. That’s what really attracts me (and others) to them. They inspire us to contemplate Jesus in His suffering, as well as when He was a child, sleeping in St. Joseph’s arms. Meditating on either of them will bring us closer to Jesus. That’s the point of all prayer, to bring us closer to God. Like I said, the indulgences are just an added bonus.

 

[Vico]

…
Can you really loose anothers’ mortal sin by prayer ?..
.

The prayer is for the *faithfully departed *that they may have the temporal effects of their sins loosed. This is the same as an indulgence for the faithfully departed.

From the Haydock Bible Commentary: Sin is often taken for the punishment; and this effect of mortal sin may be remitted in purgatory, when the person has sincerely repented in this life. – Haydock

haydock1859.tripod.com/id1431.html

 

[Duane1966]

Took a look thanks. Seems to be a lot of words to describe the judgement seat of Christ. Tough also to see how indulgences can change the inevitable need for transformation and judgement.

Believe me, if someone is going through the hoops to gain an indulgence, transformation is indeed happening in that person.

Can you really loose anothers’ mortal sin by prayer?

An indulgence is an act of the Church by which It pardons a person (who has confessed his sins and received absolution) from the temporal punishment due to sin.** It does not forgive sins and cannot be received by those in the state of serious sin.** Even after going to Confession, we are still bound in justice to pay the penalty for the moral damage caused by our sins. Our ability to satisfy this temporal punishment through our own good works is relatively limited. The Church, however, is able to apply the super-abundant merits of our Lord and His saints to Its subjects.

The words "super-abundant" remind us that the merits gained by our Lord on the Cross are infinite. Coupled with the good works and graces earned by the saints, they form an inexhaustible treasury of merit, more than able to make up for the temporal punishments due to all mankind. The Church is able to apply these merits to Its subjects by the "power of the keys," which enables Peter and the Apostles to "bind in heaven whatever they have bound in heaven" (Cf. Matthew xvi).

In the past, the Church granted indulgences mostly for services rendered to It by the faithful. In the middle ages the most common indulgences were earned by those contributing to the building of a church or participating in a crusade. In order to avoid the appearance of selling indulgences, which would constitute the sin of simony, the Church now generally restricts Itself to granting indulgences for pilgrimages and prayers, which do not monetarily benefit the Church or the clergy.

Prior to the reign of Pope Paul VI, indulgences were designated as "plenary," satisfying all of the temporal punishment due to sin; or as "partial," satisfying this punishment as though the recipient had performed the traditional Lenten penance for some number of days, weeks, months, or "quarantines." A quarantine is simply the length of time equal to an entire Lent.

It should be noted that the measurement indicates an equivalent penance, and not a reduction of a "sentence" to be "served" in Purgatory. We simply do not know how the duration of punishment is measured in Purgatory, nor do we know if there is time in Purgatory or how it might relate to time on earth. In any event, the primary application of indulgences is to the living, the subjects of the Church Militant. The Church on earth sometimes applies Its indulgences to the Faithful Departed, but does so not by authority but by way of suffrage, asking God to accept Its petition for pardon of the deceased.

Since the effectiveness of an indulgence gained for a soul in Purgatory is uncertain, we are able and even urged to gain numerous indulgences for the deceased. Such effort is not wasted, even if the person for whom the indulgence is gained is unable to receive its benefits. God never wastes anything, but employs such ungarnered merits for purposes He judges worthy.

from Revelation

3The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds. 14h Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.) 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.

Where is Hades? It is clearly not Hell as we know it in this context, and neither is it Heaven.

Why does St. Paul seem to be praying for someone with language that implies that the person is dead?

6 May the Lord grant mercy to the family of Onesiphorusn because he often gave me new heart and was not ashamed of my chains. 17But when he came to Rome, he promptly searched for me and found me. 18May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord* on that day. And you know very well the services he rendered in Ephesus.*

 

[pablope]

Took a look thanks. Seems to be a lot of words to describe the judgement seat of Christ. Tough also to see how indulgences can change the inevitable need for transformation and judgement.

Indulgences to do not change the inevitable need for tranformation…it strengthens it instead, specially the inner transformation of one self.

Again, you are (name removed by moderator)utting your indoctrinated protestant understanding in the teaching…disregard your protestant understanding, once in a while.

 

[benhur]

The prayer is for the *faithfully departed *that they may have the temporal effects of their sins loosed. This is the same as an indulgence for the faithfully departed.

From the Haydock Bible Commentary: Sin is often taken for the punishment; and this effect of mortal sin may be remitted in purgatory, when the person has sincerely repented in this life. – Haydock

haydock1859.tripod.com/id1431.html

Hi Vico

My quote was in reference to Maccabees where it is highly questioned if those prayed for had departed faithfully, for they had kept stolen idols, a capital offense.

 

[benhur]

Indulgences to do not change the inevitable need for tranformation….it strengthens it instead, specially the inner transformation of one self.

Don’t understand. That seems like change, yet we are to be purified, become like Christ. .How can that be done more so or “stronger”. ?

Again, you are (name removed by moderator)utting your indoctrinated protestant understanding in the teaching…disregard your protestant understanding, once in a while.

My friend, my understanding partly comes from the practice as spoken by Catholics.

Fire purifies. Indulgences are to make it less “painful” or quicker or “less” fire , yet you still need the same amount of purification. Don’t get that.

 

[benhur]

Believe me, if someone is going through the hoops to gain an indulgence, transformation is indeed happening in that person.

 

[Vico]

Hi Vico

My quote was in reference to Maccabees where it is highly questioned if those prayed for had departed faithfully, for they had kept stolen idols, a capital offense.

Is it for this? “It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.” – 2 Maccabees 12:46

The Haydock commentary posted is for 2 Maccabees 12:46.

 

[Duane1966]

It most certainly is hell or gehenna.

Ah, no. Hades is NOT Gahenna. Unless Jesus, descended to Gahenna, and preached to the souls there.

Yes it seems that he prays the Lord be merciful, but it is for that “day”. He does not pray for his friend in his present location (purgatory or in heaven).

What is the “that day” that St. Paul is talking about? Because he clearly is praying for someone who seems to be dead. Are his prayers applied retroactively?

The Jews offered prayers (as they do to this day) for the dead. Nowhere does Jesus rebuke them. Why?

Early Christianity prayed for the dead (as witnessed to by many prayers for the dead in the catacombs). Why?

The church fathers write about praying for the dead. Why?

Nowhere does scripture say NOT TO pray for the dead. Why?