Question on Purgatory, Answered!

[Denise1957]

Deliberately getting drunk is of grave matter.

That’s my understanding as well. It’s a mortal sin if we get so drunk that we lose our ability to reason. It’s possible that this can happen in a social setting, but one usually knows when they’ve had one drink too many. It’s a venial sin to get slightly drunk, but I don’t really know what ‘slightly’ means, exactly. There’s no need to confess venial sins, of course, though it’s a good idea in some circumstances.

 

[dronald]

I have troubles believing that the Eucharist is truly Christ’s flesh and blood of because when He passed the cup and bread, He still hadn’t been crucified and glorified. So they were eating Him while He was still living with Him. Catholics say they take part in His one same Sacrifice every time they take communion. So my question is, did the Sacrifice happen at the last supper, or did it happen on the cross? When was the Sacrifice? Had Jesus already been Sacrificed at the last supper?

To this Catholics respond that Jesus is timeless, and the Apostles did take part in His Sacrifice even before He was Sacrificed because in the timeless universe that God can hold in His hand, it doesn’t matter. Jesus was Sacrificed on the Cross, and yet the Apostles took part in that Sacrifice prior to it happening. (Please correct anything I’ve said incorrectly.)

So all of this said, I have troubles understanding how one cannot see that Jesus could die for sins past/present/future? If indeed God is timeless, then why should we assume it matters that I sinned yesterday and repented, sinned today and wish to repent, or sin tomorrow and never repent. If Jesus died for me He died for ALL, did He not? Is He not timeless and capable of dying for future sins as well? Why is the timelessness of Jesus’s Sacrifice not consistent with the belief on Christ’s finished work after being Sacrificed?

If the Apostles could take part in the Sacrifice of Jesus prior to His Crucifixion, then why can’t the timeless Sacrifice forgive sins timelessly?

 

[SyroMalankara]

I have troubles believing that the Eucharist is truly Christ’s flesh and blood of because when He passed the cup and bread, He still hadn’t been crucified and glorified. So they were eating Him while He was still living with Him. Catholics say they take part in His one same Sacrifice every time they take communion. So my question is, did the Sacrifice happen at the last supper, or did it happen on the cross? When was the Sacrifice? Had Jesus already been Sacrificed at the last supper?

To this Catholics respond that Jesus is timeless, and the Apostles did take part in His Sacrifice even before He was Sacrificed because in the timeless universe that God can hold in His hand, it doesn’t matter. Jesus was Sacrificed on the Cross, and yet the Apostles took part in that Sacrifice prior to it happening. (Please correct anything I’ve said incorrectly.)

These are all theological explanation for the Divine. It can be said that Christ’s Incarnation, Crucifixion and Resurrection sanctified the entire world, and humanity particularly. The Divine event in entirety is Sacrificial.

So all of this said, I have troubles understanding how one cannot see that Jesus could die for sins past/present/future? If indeed God is timeless, then why should we assume it matters that I sinned yesterday and repented, sinned today and wish to repent, or sin tomorrow and never repent. If Jesus died for me He died for ALL, did He not? Is He not timeless and capable of dying for future sins as well? Why is the timelessness of Jesus’s Sacrifice not consistent with the belief on Christ’s finished work after being Sacrificed?

Christ died for all potentially, for ‘the many’ kinetically.

If the Apostles could take part in the Sacrifice of Jesus prior to His Crucifixion, then why can’t the timeless Sacrifice forgive sins timelessly?

Who says He can’t?

 

[SyroMalankara]

Oh, and at my Grandfathers funeral, we DID pray for him…so I don’t know where the idea that protestants don’t pray for dead people came from.

From protestants.

 

[PRmerger]

Oh, and at my Grandfathers funeral, we DID pray for him…so I don’t know where the idea that protestants don’t pray for dead people came from.

What was the purpose of the prayers? If he was in heaven, he was in need of no prayers.

Praying for him implies that you believe he is in purgatory, and in need of intercession.

 

[spedteacherita]

Oh, and at my Grandfathers funeral, we DID pray for him…so I don’t know where the idea that protestants don’t pray for dead people came from.

That’s not something Protestants do - at least I’ve never seen it at the many Protestant funerals. We might pray for the people important to the deceased or we may thank God for the life that He gave to that particular person.



Rita

 

[pablope]

Jesus doesn’t deceive His Father and you know I don’t mean that. Jesus was the last sacrifice - the veil was torn in half at the moment of His death. He had accomplished His work here on Earth.

 

[pablope]

I would recommend you give posts that have more… umph? Orthodox wholeheartedly read scripture, 2 Maccabees included. We believe in prayers for the dead.
However we believe prayers for the dead =/= purgatory.

Welll…how can you pray for the dead if they are already in heaven? Why would they need praying?

And what is the purpose, with the Orthodox understanding, of prayers for the dead?

 

[pablope]

We

Also there is the eastern Catholic belief of “final theosis” which seems to be a Latin teaching of purgatory meshed with Theosis, something Orthodox also reject as far as my knowledge goes.

Well…so let me ask…is there anything wrong with the final theosis that seems to be influenced by Latin teaching?

What do you see wrong with this?

 

[LutheranScholar]

What is your understanding about why we should avoid sin? I’m not sure I understand the Lutheran reasons for avoiding sin in the first place.

We* can’t *avoid sin. As long as we deal with the flesh, the world and the Devil, sin is something we must constantly struggle with. We are simply forgiven of that sin with the substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ on the Cross. We are absolved with Confession and Absolution. We receive forgiveness in the Sacrament. We don’t want to drive the Holy Spirit away ( which is very possible) and when we are terrified by the impossibility of keeping the Law on our own, we are comforted and refreshed by the Gospel. We are not antinomians, we know the Law is still in force, the Moral Law, the Ten Commandments. Only by the activity of the Holy Spirit in our lives may we keep those commandments, to love God and neighbor.

 

[pablope]

That’s not something Protestants do - at least I’ve never seen it at the many Protestant funerals. We might pray for the people important to the deceased or we may thank God for the life that He gave to that particular person.



Rita

I would suggest the following links:

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/hope-eternal-life.cfm

This is a Catholic Lutheran paper on purgatory (start at this paragraph):

A. Transformation Unto Glory: Purgation

1. If we die still deformed by sin, but will finally live before God fully transformed into what God intends for humanity, then some sort of change or transformation must occur between death and entry into eschatological glory. In this sense, the general topic of “purgation” is unavoidable. What is the nature of this transformation?
2. Lutherans and Catholics have given conflicting descriptions of this transformation from the earliest years of the Reformation. The questions for this dialogue concern the nature of the divergent answers and whether they represent a church-dividing difference, i.e., a difference that is incompatible with life together in full communion. We seek here to answer these questions.
3. Lutherans teach that all the justified remain sinners unto death (JDDJ, 29). Sin and the effects of sin in those who die in Christ will be removed prior to entrance into eternal glory. In effect, they teach the reality of purgation, even if not as a distinct intermediate state. The rejection by the Lutheran Reformers of the doctrine of purgatory as they knew it focused on practices and abuses perceived as bound up with this teaching. They judged that the doctrine of purgatory obscured the gospel of free grace. The Confessions explicitly express a willingness to discuss purgatory if the doctrine were separated from these practices and abuses, although at the same time expressing doubt about the biblical foundation of any such teaching (SA II, 2.14).
4. Today, Lutheran and Catholic teaching integrates purgation with death, judgment, and the encounter with Christ. Recent Catholic and Lutheran understandings of purgation sound remarkably similar. While the word “purgatory” remains an ecumenically charged term, and for many Catholics and Lutherans signals a sharp division, our work in this round has shown that our churches’ understandings of how the justified enter eternal glory are closer than expected.

As stated by para 211, Lutherans believe in some sort of purgation…just do not call it purgatory.

 

[PRmerger]

Aye, indeed, I see no problem with certain ideas of purification, as in a very real sense, we are all purified in the eyes of God through Christ!

So, just to be clear: you can embrace the idea that if you died tonight, (hypothetical discussion, here, folks!) after thinking a mean thought about your neighbor’s dog, for example, you would need to be cleansed of this filth on your soul before entering the Holy of Holy Tabernacle of the Eternal Godhead, yes?

You’d need to go to the Mud Room, so to speak, before entering the Throne of the King?

 

[benhur]

We don’t know if purgatory is a place or just a process, we don’t even know if it exists as Time. I can accept that a cleansing will happen, but how or where or how long, no one knows. It could be instantaneous along with us getting our glorified bodies for all we know…

Pretty good. Pretty sure it is not a specially designated place, for no matter where we are, it is before the Lord, He is there. Further, some say it is necessary to be "purified’’, and nothing impure can be in heaven. Yet heaven , even God Himself mixes with flesh, came down to earth , and even enters our very new hearts. Even Satan in Job goes before the throne in heaven. Of course one could say to be a permanent resident, pure holiness is required (given).

Some of my relatives collect money to say Mass for deceased loved ones.

 

[PRmerger]

Pretty good. Pretty sure it is not a specially designated place, for no matter where we are, it is before the Lord, He is there. Further, some say it is necessary to be "purified’’, and nothing impure can be in heaven.

Do you disagree with that verse in Revelation, ben?

Like, are you adding to Scripture by saying, “Yes, nothing unclean can enter heaven, but…”

Or “Nothing unclean can enter heaven except some things can enter heaven which are a teensy bit unclean!”

 

[Reuben_J]

I have troubles believing that the Eucharist is truly Christ’s flesh and blood of because when He passed the cup and bread, He still hadn’t been crucified and glorified. So they were eating Him while He was still living with Him.

This is like saying that Jesus could not walk on water because a human specific gravity is denser (than water) and therefore he could not float. Jesus changed water into wine too.

Catholics say they take part in His one same Sacrifice every time they take communion. So my question is, did the Sacrifice happen at the last supper, or did it happen on the cross? When was the Sacrifice? Had Jesus already been Sacrificed at the last supper?

On the cross, of course, and which Jesus many times alluded to before his death.

The so called last supper, that fateful night of the Passover dinner, was where Jesus instituted the Holy Eucharist. That we have to do it, “in memory of me”, he said. He could not have taught the apostles this on the cross. Also the significant of supping together where much interaction is done (that’s just my personal addition).

To this Catholics respond that Jesus is timeless, and the Apostles did take part in His Sacrifice even before He was Sacrificed because in the timeless universe that God can hold in His hand, it doesn’t matter. Jesus was Sacrificed on the Cross, and yet the Apostles took part in that Sacrifice prior to it happening. (Please correct anything I’ve said incorrectly.)

So all of this said, I have troubles understanding how one cannot see that Jesus could die for sins past/present/future? If indeed God is timeless, then why should we assume it matters that I sinned yesterday and repented, sinned today and wish to repent, or sin tomorrow and never repent. If Jesus died for me He died for ALL, did He not? Is He not timeless and capable of dying for future sins as well? Why is the timelessness of Jesus’s Sacrifice not consistent with the belief on Christ’s finished work after being Sacrificed?

If the Apostles could take part in the Sacrifice of Jesus prior to His Crucifixion, then why can’t the timeless Sacrifice forgive sins timelessly?

You have a mistaken understanding of the Eucharist in the above two paragraphs and your questions are not clear. What do you really want to ask?

The answer to the last paragraph is, yes, of course. It also can be asked too, why can’t this sacrificed be celebrated timelessly?

If we accept that the sacrifice is a very important part of the revelation, and that it is a grace, then for the benefit of humans who often forget, celebrating this sacrifice again and again, doing it for the memory of Jesus notwithstanding, I think it is the right thing to do. It is in fact not right not doing it.

Reuben.

 

[benhur]

So, just to be clear: you can embrace the idea that if you died tonight, (hypothetical discussion, here, folks!) after thinking a mean thought about your neighbor’s dog, for example, you would need to be cleansed of this filth on your soul before entering the Holy of Holy Tabernacle of the Eternal Godhead, yes?

You’d need to go to the Mud Room, so to speak, before entering the Throne of the King?

Hi PR,
Maybe some scholars can help, but are there not 2 books for judging? We are either judged by our own works for those rejecting Christ’s works and not found in the book of life (Great White Throne judgement Rev 20:11.Many judgement references are to this where every last dot and utterance will be judged), or if found in the book of life, our works in Christ will be judged (Judgment Seat of Christ 2Cor.5). The believers sins, past, present, and future are covered by the Blood and “remembered no more”. Heb10:17

I just wouldn’t put purgatory in same realm as what happens at baptism.or confessing. I also think equating our judgement before the Lord with purgatory and all its paraphenalia as presumptuously intrusive. All the prayers in the world can not change what happens at the White Throne Judgement, as well as what must happen at Christ’s Judgement Seat.

 

[benhur]

Do you disagree with that verse in Revelation, ben?

Like, are you adding to Scripture by saying, “Yes, nothing unclean can enter heaven, but…”

Or “Nothing unclean can enter heaven except some things can enter heaven which are a teensy bit unclean!”

Did not OT Jews have a yearly sacrifice for sins committed unknowingly therefore “unconfessed” ? We know Christ fullfilled the need for this sacrifice and covers all sin, confessed, unconfessed, done in in ignorance or not etc. Are you suggesting all sins must be confessed in order to be forgiven , and therefore the need for purgatory, the last “confessional” ? So you have baptism, confessional , then Purgatory, all by His grace ? Makes the Cross not quite the final work then, or at the very least extends the conditionality of Calvary, in my humble opinion.

“Call not unclean what the Father has called clean”.

 

[Darryl_B]

In a thread I recently left, I was challenged about Purgatory and about God and things unclean. I will attempt to offer my own poor answer that may be unacceptable and I might get quote bombed for it ( which is fine. I think the work is unnecessary, but I appreciate the passion people put into it). Okay. I believe that Christ died for my sins. Personally, as if I were the only person in the world, He came to die for* me*. And* I* put Him to death,* I mocked Him, I flogged Him, I* declared my unwavering loyalty to Him just to deny Him three times.* I* kissed His cheek to identify Him to a blood thirsty mob. I nailed Him to the Cross. Since my Baptism, God looks at me and sees Jesus.He cleansed me from my sin nearly 2000 years ago. " It is finished!" He cried. There is no need for Purgatory because, as stinking a bag of **** and worms that I am, He cleansed me. At my Baptism, every time I approach the Altar to partake of His Body and Blood, quite simply, I am forgiven! Every time I approach my minister, privately and as part of the Divine Service congregation and I am absolved from my sins, again, I am forgiven! That’s how the faith produces the love that is expressed in following the Law and doing good works!* I’m *not the one who does them. He Who began a good work in me will bring it to completion on the Day of Christ Jesus. How do I take the Sacrament in a worthy fashion? Simply to believe that Jesus meant what He said when he said that " this is My Body" and " this is My Blood." Simply to share the Confession of the Congregation. Innovation or not, perhaps Purgatory does exist, if that means that the Holy Spirit is constantly at work purging the old Adam out of Christ’s people. Innovations are not necessarily false, perhaps a revelation put to a comprehensive form, like sola fide. Aye, indeed, I see no problem with certain ideas of purification, as in a very real sense, we are all purified in the eyes of God through Christ!

My friend, one who preaches sola fide cannot possibly ever conceive the concept of Purgatory. It’s impossible to exist. That is because Sola Fides was developed with the specific purpose of removing “purgatory”. Sola Fides was not conceived under its own devices, nor its own product, it was conceived purely for the sake of making “Purgatory” redundant.

Purgatory is related to works, not works in the sense of labouring, but works in the sense of “actions”. It must be a glorious day when I can steal $50 from a random stranger, then later truly and genuinely be sorry and repentant for that stupid mistake, and receive absolution. But still retain $50 in my pocket.

Our actions have repercussions, repercussions that are not fixable by regret, there is no turning back the clock, and undoing it. That is what Martin Luther’s rather sad quote about murder and adulter to grievous levels was addressing. He held that there is NO cost associated from the repercussion of action (works), and I have yet to meet the human being who actually upholds the Lutheran position in their day to day life.

Ever wanted someone to go to prison for a crime they committed? That would be justice. Ever wanted the crazy driver in front of you pulled over by police and given a ticket? That would be justice. Ever punished your own children for actions you considered wrong, even though they are truly sorry? That would be justice. I even bet you would do that for the sake of the child.

 

[PRmerger]

“Call not unclean what the Father has called clean”.

Can you be clean with sin on your soul?

 

[pablope]

Did not OT Jews have a yearly sacrifice for sins committed unknowingly therefore “unconfessed” ?

We know Christ fullfilled the need for this sacrifice and covers all sin, confessed, unconfessed, done in in ignorance or not etc.