Question on Purgatory, Answered!

[Bballer32]

If God declares you clean, you are clean. The one Who said, “Let there be light,” and there was light, declared that the righteous shall be saved by faith.

No purgatory. There is sanctification, and death probably has some sort of sanctifying effect on one.

So, does hell exist?

 

[Tomyris]

What if you die right after thinking a really mean thought about your husband, Tomi?

Is that enough to send you to hell?

Are you clean enough to enter heaven with that smudge of sin on your soul?

EDIT: Here, “you” is a rhetorical “you”. Not a personal “you”.

Understood.

I am not the one who cleans me.

Actually not thinking the absolute, most perfect BEST about him and loving him perfectly is enough to send me to hell. The standard is Jesus’ perfection. Anything short of absolute perfection is enough to send me to hell. Salvation is by grace through faith, not by my sinlessness but His sinlessness. Jesus undertook the humanly impossible task of fixing me.

 

[spedteacherita]

If this is truly what you believe, then you will have no problem accepting the fact that God could have made Mary Immaculate and also that she Assumed.

Because anything is possible with God.

Then (since you mentioned, Mary) it’s possible for God to have sinless Jesus to be born of a sinful Mary…

Because - anything is possible with God…

***Not trying to be disrespectful - just playing devil’s advocate… eek: what did I just say???)

God bless!

Rita

 

[spedteacherita]

Understood.

I am not the one who cleans me.

Actually not thinking the absolute, most perfect BEST about him and loving him perfectly is enough to send me to hell. The standard is Jesus’ perfection. Anything short of absolute perfection is enough to send me to hell. Salvation is by grace through faith, not by my sinlessness but His sinlessness. Jesus undertook the humanly impossible task of fixing me.

I second that answer!

 

[PRmerger]

Understood.

I am not the one who cleans me.

And that’s very Catholic of you to say.

Actually not thinking the absolute, most perfect BEST about him and loving him perfectly is enough to send me to hell.

Then all of us here today are going to hell.

Unless…we are purged of our filth by the blood of the Lamb.

So, again, if you think a mean thought right now, and then die, God forbid, how is it that you enter heaven?

You are purged…

by the blood of the Lamb.

But you are purged nonetheless.

 

[PRmerger]

Then (since you mentioned, Mary) it’s possible for God to have sinless Jesus to be born of a sinful Mary…

Yes. Catholics say that it wasn’t required that Mary be a pure vessel. It was simply fitting.

He Whom the World Could Not Contain…was contained in the womb of one so blessed…and pure…and undefiled.

Fitting.

Not required though.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Acts 10:15 And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has cleansed, you must not call common.”

We can meditate in His mysteries and even give them names and descriptions. Suppositions and what nots.

In the end, what God has cleansed, is not common anymore.

We can pull hairs, ask the same question in various different ways, in the end - what is it but vanity, vanity of vanities.

What did our Lord say in His last words at the cross?

Father, into your hands I commend my spirit.

Let’s make sure we say that before we face the moment of death. Now would be a great time.

 

[Bballer32]

Then (since you mentioned, Mary) it’s possible for God to have sinless Jesus to be born of a sinful Mary…

Because - anything is possible with God…

***Not trying to be disrespectful - just playing devil’s advocate… eek: what did I just say???)

God bless!

Rita

Understandable.

He could have made her sinful, it just wouldn’t make any sense to have Jesus be born of a sinful women if he is sinless. Christ is both Human and Divine, so where did he get his humanity from? Well, where the rest of us get it from; our parents. And it Jesus Christ’s case, Mary just so happened to be the only Human parent.

 

[Bballer32]

Let’s make sure we say that before we face the moment of death. Now would be a great time.

Here’s what PRMerger was trying to get across. Do you know when you will die? That’s why this doesn’t have any ground to it.

 

[chimo]

In a thread I recently left, I was challenged about Purgatory and about God and things unclean. I will attempt to offer my own poor answer that may be unacceptable and I might get quote bombed for it ( which is fine. I think the work is unnecessary, but I appreciate the passion people put into it). Okay. I believe that Christ died for my sins. Personally, as if I were the only person in the world, He came to die for* me*. And* I* put Him to death,* I mocked Him, I flogged Him, I* declared my unwavering loyalty to Him just to deny Him three times.* I* kissed His cheek to identify Him to a blood thirsty mob. I nailed Him to the Cross. Since my Baptism, God looks at me and sees Jesus.He cleansed me from my sin nearly 2000 years ago. " It is finished!" He cried. There is no need for Purgatory because, as stinking a bag of **** and worms that I am, He cleansed me. At my Baptism, every time I approach the Altar to partake of His Body and Blood, quite simply, I am forgiven! Every time I approach my minister, privately and as part of the Divine Service congregation and I am absolved from my sins, again, I am forgiven! That’s how the faith produces the love that is expressed in following the Law and doing good works!* I’m *not the one who does them. He Who began a good work in me will bring it to completion on the Day of Christ Jesus. How do I take the Sacrament in a worthy fashion? Simply to believe that Jesus meant what He said when he said that " this is My Body" and " this is My Blood." Simply to share the Confession of the Congregation. Innovation or not, perhaps Purgatory does exist, if that means that the Holy Spirit is constantly at work purging the old Adam out of Christ’s people. Innovations are not necessarily false, perhaps a revelation put to a comprehensive form, like sola fide. Aye, indeed, I see no problem with certain ideas of purification, as in a very real sense, we are all purified in the eyes of God through Christ!

There is a very misunderstanding about Purgatory. Purgatory is the direct result of God’s Justice to save us. It is connected more to His Discipline. God has two very important attributes. There is others but let us talk about these two attributes. One attribute of God is His Justice and Discipline. The other important attribute is His Mercy. God can save us with both His Justice and Mercy acting on us. If you do not wish to go through the Door of His Mercy than God must allow His Justice and Discipline to save you. That is what Purgatory does for God. He is saving you through His Justice and Discipline. The soul will be in need of it because the soul was very lazy in their Christian witness, did not make a good confession or just abused what was given to them. For instance the Lord Jesus told us a parable of His Justice which is a parable of Purgatory when the man who was forgiven a great debt decided not to offer mercy to one who owed him a very small debt. Here we see that the King which represents God was very displeased with the actions and behaviors of this man so He ordered the man into prison until he pays back the very last penny. This prison is Purgatory simply and plainly spoken. Since the man will eventually get out it tells us that God must discipline those who are need of it. The problem with people today is they do not think God will do this after someone dies. It does not make sense that we all go to Heaven or Hell at the moment of death. There must be a state of being that will best serve the rest of us because for one we are not in Heaven yet to enter Heaven right away after death and two there is something lacking in us so that a further disciplinary action is needed so that we will be able to Glorify God. Purgatory is actually useless to the soul before death. It is there already in you before you die but it does not work on you until you die. That is when it manifests itself. God only continues what is there at death. If you already in the state of Heaven than Heaven is your immediate destination. Heaven must first come to you if you will immediately to enter it after death. If you are still in the Purgatory state at death then God just continues this Purgatory until Heaven is formed in you. People only go to Hell if Hell is already their state of being at death. As I said earlier God only continues what is there inside you at death. Purgatory should not surprise you because most people do not Glorify God as did the saints. Most people if they will learn the secret of the saints will be able to avoid Purgatory because this Heaven is now in them. Purgatory is for those who are need of God’s Discipline. How can for instance someone who will not express mercy in acts of deed, prayer and word ever be saved unless there is this Purgatory to save them? Purgatory is not for the faithful but for the undisciplined, the lazy ones and for those who had abused the mercy of God. Since their deeds or lack of deeds is not worthy of hell there must be another type of attribute to save them. The Church of Rome understands this attribute of God more than any other Church. She knows of God’s Justice and Discipline. That is why her saints had given us this incredible teaching. If you will like to know the Orthodox and Eastern Churches know more about the other attribute of God which is His Mercy. Both Churches are experts in what field God wanted them to know, the Catholic Church on His Justice and Discipline and the Eastern Churches on His Mercy. What we need to receive is this balance teachings on both His Justice and Mercy. That is why God developed two Churches the one to be the better authority of His Justice and the other a better authority on His Mercy.

 

[LutheranScholar]

Understood.

I am not the one who cleans me.

Actually not thinking the absolute, most perfect BEST about him and loving him perfectly is enough to send me to hell. The standard is Jesus’ perfection. Anything short of absolute perfection is enough to send me to hell. Salvation is by grace through faith, not by my sinlessness but His sinlessness. Jesus undertook the humanly impossible task of fixing me.

Yes, amen. Jesus already did all the work.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, amen. Jesus already did all the work.

That doesn’t discount purgatory. It’s His work that is doing the purging.

 

[Reuben_J]

In a thread I recently left, I was challenged about Purgatory and about God and things unclean. I will attempt to offer my own poor answer that may be unacceptable and I might get quote bombed for it ( which is fine. I think the work is unnecessary, but I appreciate the passion people put into it).

Sometimes the argument can be quite heated up. To me that is alright. What I feel strongly against is for someone, especially if one supports it be academic credential, to impute something that is not in the Catholic teaching. That is misleading, and if it is done intentionally, it is dishonest and downright prejudicial.

So do not worry and I think you come out with an issue which is important to Catholics and equally too for Protestants who do not believe in it. Healthy discussion is good for knowledge. At least if we should be against something, it is against what it truly is and not what we wrongly believe it is.

Okay. I believe that Christ died for my sins. Personally, as if I were the only person in the world, He came to die for me. And I put Him to death, I mocked Him, I flogged Him, I declared my unwavering loyalty to Him just to deny Him three times. I kissed His cheek to identify Him to a blood thirsty mob. I nailed Him to the Cross. Since my Baptism, God looks at me and sees Jesus.He cleansed me from my sin nearly 2000 years ago. " It is finished!" He cried.

This is Catholic belief too and you say it very well for us. I always try to encourage Protestants not to be shy about saying the truth and which we Catholics may be unable to articulate that well.

But I may add to what you said, to clarify.

Problem with many Christians is saying that Christ died for their sins and stop there. Very often this invites ridicule; it should be Christ died for my sins, and if I repent of them, his death would wash them away clean. It is as if I have never sinned. If I do not repent but merely believe that story and teaching that he died for us, it will do nothing for my sins.

So the forgiveness of my sin depends entirely on me, the degree that I reject it; not on Christ (who would forgive me if I truly repent).

There is no need for Purgatory because, as stinking a bag of **** and worms that I am, He cleansed me.

Yes, sir. (If my repentance is true and sincere).

David was forgiven but he fasted and put on sack cloth for a period of time. One may say that was because Jesus had not died then. That would be missing the point – the point was true repentance by David. Yet despite that he suffered the consequence of his wrongdoing when he lost his first born.

At my Baptism, every time I approach the Altar to partake of His Body and Blood, quite simply, I am forgiven! Every time I approach my minister, privately and as part of the Divine Service congregation and I am absolved from my sins, again, I am forgiven! That’s how the faith produces the love that is expressed in following the Law and doing good works! I’m not the one who does them. He Who began a good work in me will bring it to completion on the Day of Christ Jesus.

This may sound like a Catholic belief at first glance but there is a thin line that separates us here; and that is why we cannot accept it because different doctrine necessitate different belief altogether.

I am not forgiven of my serious sin by partaking in the Body and Blood of the Lord. They are food for my soul so that when I am fed I should be strong enough not to scourge for food on the streets (sins from the Evil One).

My sins are forgiven when I confess them in the Sacrament of Penance. After that I take the Lord’s Body and Blood to strengthen me. Of course, the Lord’s presence in me does to some extent, wipes away those less serious sins but out of respect for Him, I would never receive him if I am in a state of serious sin, for the Lord can never be present in the impure, the unclean. (Please be careful on the last sentence; if you respond to it, please do not misconstrue it).

Just like the Centurion, I can only say, Lord I am not worthy that you should come into my house, but just say the word and I will be healed.

How do I take the Sacrament in a worthy fashion? Simply to believe that Jesus meant what He said when he said that " this is My Body" and " this is My Blood." Simply to share the Confession of the Congregation.

And that is insufficient. You are not worthy of the divinity of the Lord if you are in sin; as you are the temple of the Holy Spirit, you should not be defiled. When we eat his true Body and true Blood, we become part of Him. His true substance ingested by us, becomes part of our body.

Protestants cannot accept this is not out of anything; for how Christ’s substance could be digested and He infused into our body, bodily and divinely? But that is what happened to us in the Holy Eucharist.

Innovation or not, perhaps Purgatory does exist, if that means that the Holy Spirit is constantly at work purging the old Adam out of Christ’s people. Innovations are not necessarily false, perhaps a revelation put to a comprehensive form, like sola fide. Aye, indeed, I see no problem with certain ideas of purification, as in a very real sense, we are all purified in the eyes of God through Christ!

Purgatory exists and is believed by ancient Christians that are still living today – Catholics and the Orthodox. Yes, granted that some may not call it purgatory, Catholics use the term perhaps for want of word, but there is indeed a place or state of purification after life before one can enter heaven which nothing unclean can go in.

God bless.

Reuben

 

[czarlazar]

There is a very misunderstanding about Purgatory. Purgatory is the direct result of God’s Justice to save us. It is connected more to His Discipline. God has two very important attributes. There is others but let us talk about these two attributes. One attribute of God is His Justice and Discipline. The other important attribute is His Mercy. God can save us with both His Justice and Mercy acting on us. If you do not wish to go through the Door of His Mercy than God must allow His Justice and Discipline to save you. That is what Purgatory does for God. He is saving you through His Justice and Discipline. The soul will be in need of it because the soul was very lazy in their Christian witness, did not make a good confession or just abused what was given to them. For instance the Lord Jesus told us a parable of His Justice which is a parable of Purgatory when the man who was forgiven a great debt decided not to offer mercy to one who owed him a very small debt. Here we see that the King which represents God was very displeased with the actions and behaviors of this man so He ordered the man into prison until he pays back the very last penny. This prison is Purgatory simply and plainly spoken. Since the man will eventually get out it tells us that God must discipline those who are need of it. The problem with people today is they do not think God will do this after someone dies. It does not make sense that we all go to Heaven or Hell at the moment of death. There must be a state of being that will best serve the rest of us because for one we are not in Heaven yet to enter Heaven right away after death and two there is something lacking in us so that a further disciplinary action is needed so that we will be able to Glorify God. Purgatory is actually useless to the soul before death. It is there already in you before you die but it does not work on you until you die. That is when it manifests itself. God only continues what is there at death. If you already in the state of Heaven than Heaven is your immediate destination. Heaven must first come to you if you will immediately to enter it after death. If you are still in the Purgatory state at death then God just continues this Purgatory until Heaven is formed in you. People only go to Hell if Hell is already their state of being at death. As I said earlier God only continues what is there inside you at death. Purgatory should not surprise you because most people do not Glorify God as did the saints. Most people if they will learn the secret of the saints will be able to avoid Purgatory because this Heaven is now in them. Purgatory is for those who are need of God’s Discipline. How can for instance someone who will not express mercy in acts of deed, prayer and word ever be saved unless there is this Purgatory to save them? Purgatory is not for the faithful but for the undisciplined, the lazy ones and for those who had abused the mercy of God. Since their deeds or lack of deeds is not worthy of hell there must be another type of attribute to save them. The Church of Rome understands this attribute of God more than any other Church. She knows of God’s Justice and Discipline. That is why her saints had given us this incredible teaching. If you will like to know the Orthodox and Eastern Churches know more about the other attribute of God which is His Mercy. Both Churches are experts in what field God wanted them to know, the Catholic Church on His Justice and Discipline and the Eastern Churches on His Mercy. What we need to receive is this balance teachings on both His Justice and Mercy. That is why God developed two Churches the one to be the better authority of His Justice and the other a better authority on His Mercy.

Interesting, but contrary to most Orthodox belief:

According to the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America:
“The Orthodox Church does not believe in purgatory (a place of purging), that is, the inter-mediate state after death in which the souls of the saved (those who have not received temporal punishment for their sins) are purified of all taint preparatory to entering into Heaven, where every soul is perfect and fit to see God. Also, the Orthodox Church does not believe in indulgences as remissions from purgatoral punishment. Both purgatory and indulgences are inter-corrolated theories, unwitnessed in the Bible or in the Ancient Church, and when they were enforced and applied they brought about evil practices at the expense of the prevailing Truths of the Church. If Almighty God in His merciful loving-kindness changes the dreadful situation of the sinner, it is unknown to the Church of Christ. The Church lived for fifteen hundred years without such a theory”

So, I am not sure which branch you follow and I am not judging your belief or that of your spiritual father, but as I stated most Orthodox reject the notion of Purgatory,

 

[PRmerger]

Interesting, but contrary to most Orthodox belief:

According to the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America:
“The Orthodox Church does not believe in purgatory (a place of purging), that is, the inter-mediate state after death in which the souls of the saved (those who have not received temporal punishment for their sins) are purified of all taint preparatory to entering into Heaven, where every soul is perfect and fit to see God. Also, the Orthodox Church does not believe in indulgences as remissions from purgatoral punishment. Both purgatory and indulgences are inter-corrolated theories, unwitnessed in the Bible or in the Ancient Church, and when they were enforced and applied they brought about evil practices at the expense of the prevailing Truths of the Church. If Almighty God in His merciful loving-kindness changes the dreadful situation of the sinner, it is unknown to the Church of Christ. The Church lived for fifteen hundred years without such a theory”

So, I am not sure which branch you follow and I am not judging your belief or that of your spiritual father, but as I stated most Orthodox reject the notion of Purgatory,

Most Orthodox reject the term Purgatory. But not the concept.

All Orthodox (actually, all Christians) understand that nothing unclean can enter heaven.

And all understand that we’re not quite clean enough to stand before the Eternal Throne of Heaven.

Thus: purgation is required. By whatever name, process, system you want to call it.

As CS Lewis so trenchantly writes: “Our souls demand purgatory, don’t they? Even if God doesn’t mind people entering heaven dripping with mud and slime, should we not reply, I’d rather be cleansed first,’ even if it may hurt?”

 

[benhur]

Just a thought but are we not seated in heavenly places now according to Paul and how can that be if we are sometimes walking around with venial sins ? I have seen postings that God has forgiven us and sees us clean now.

He is not limited to time . We are. We will go thru a ‘‘change", a glorification’’, a perfecting. Maybe that is the basis for a “purging” purgatory. Not sure that has anything to do with venial sins or sins committed, and consequently with sins that can be wiped away with indulgences and prayers of others. That is the rub.

We may "suffer’ at the negative side of any judgement, the dross being revealed and eliminated, but we do not suffer effectually, to be cleansed, but because we are being cleansed/changed.

 

[czarlazar]

Most Orthodox reject the term Purgatory. But not the concept.

All Orthodox (actually, all Christians) understand that nothing unclean can enter heaven.

And all understand that we’re not quite clean enough to stand before the Eternal Throne of Heaven.

Thus: purgation is required. By whatever name, process, system you want to call it.

As CS Lewis so trenchantly writes: “Our souls demand purgatory, don’t they? Even if God doesn’t mind people entering heaven dripping with mud and slime, should we not reply, I’d rather be cleansed first,’ even if it may hurt?”

Uh um…again, no. Orthodox reject purgatory through and through. Period.
Confession and prayers for the dead are what is accepted, but that is not catholic purgatory.

 

[PRmerger]

Uh um…again, no. Orthodox reject purgatory through and through. Period.
Confession and prayers for the dead are what is accepted, but that is not catholic purgatory.

You accept that nothing unclean can enter heaven.
You accept that even a nasty thought sullies the soul.

How is this reconciled?

Through a mysterious process called…

purgatory.

You believe it. Even if you don’t want to call it purgatory.

Our souls are purged before meeting the Godhead.

You wouldn’t place your unwashed pinky toe into a tabernacle.

Why would you think that your unwashed soul could enter the Eternal Tabernacle? (Unless, of course, it is indeed clean and undefiled. Quite possible through the sacraments!)

 

[czarlazar]

You accept that nothing unclean can enter heaven.
You accept that even a nasty thought sullies the soul.

How is this reconciled?

Through a mysterious process called…

purgatory.

You believe it. Even if you don’t want to call it purgatory.

Our souls are purged before meeting the Godhead.

You wouldn’t place your unwashed pinky toe into a tabernacle.

Why would you think that your unwashed soul could enter the Eternal Tabernacle? (Unless, of course, it is indeed clean and undefiled. Quite possible through the sacraments!)

We are having the same discussion in two places, so: My friend, don’t get yourself so worked up over this. Sin is sin…its the reason we strive for a sinless life and should visit confession often. I know this idea is convenient and maybe makes people feel better that if they die with this “little sin” they can still go somewhere and make it to heaven. But lets get real for a minute, this is all based on indulgences — this is where the idea came from. Purgatory is no more real than indulgences are.

 

[PRmerger]

We are having the same discussion in two places, so: My friend, don’t get yourself so worked up over this. Sin is sin…its the reason we strive for a sinless life and should visit confession often. I know this idea is convenient and maybe makes people feel better that if they die with this “little sin” they can still go somewhere and make it to heaven. But lets get real for a minute, this is all based on indulgences — this is where the idea came from. Purgatory is no more real than indulgences are.

You understand now, I think, that your faith, while it doesn’t call the mystery by name, embraces the Catholic teaching.

Nothing unclean can enter heaven.
Not even a dirty toenail.

It has to be cleansed first.

You agree, yes?