Question on suffering, secular life and self denial

[cyberwolf001]

Lately reading church writings and teachings I am left feeling that if I am happy I am not follow Jesus as I should.

If I hate delicious food I am doing this wrong.

Literally from some of the church writings and stuff I see here I worry that I am going to hell unless I am a Hermit that denies all happiness and and beats himself constantly to repent of his sins…

Literally no anime, no video games, no music, no books, no TV, no movies (unless there Catholic), no going out, no having fun, no socializing, no delicious food.

Am I reading this wrong? Or have I just been running into Church teachings that overemphasis self denial to counter the laziness of most Catholics?

 

[Anniegirl]

Hi,

Jesus wants you to be happy and joyful. He wants you to find your happiness in Him, and not in created things. However, he has filled the world with good things, and you are free to enjoy them. Try to see the things of the world that make you happy as gifts from God - they should not be ends in and of themselves. You are free to watch Anime, see your friends, and enjoy delicious food. If you decide to deny yourself something that gives you pleasure, do it because you love God and want to please Him, not because you have to. I hope that helps.

God bless!

 

[water]

Hi,

Jesus wants you to be happy and joyful. He wants you to find your happiness in Him, and not in created things. However, he has filled the world with good things, and you are free to enjoy them. Try to see the things of the world that make you happy as gifts from God - they should not be ends in and of themselves. You are free to watch Anime, see your friends, and enjoy delicious food. If you decide to deny yourself something that gives you pleasure, do it because you love God and want to please Him, not because you have to. I hope that helps.

God bless!

I really like how you answered it. Could you also kindly explain further about “denying yourself”? I don’t have words to explain as you do, but some might be confused when we talk about this - it is misunderstood that we have to hate and look down on ourself. I had seen posts like this before.

Thanks!

 

[InLight247]

Having a correct concept of self-denial is important.
God wants us to have an abundant life, that is, in every area of our lives. But He also tells us to deny ourselves, pick up our crosses and follow Him. So what is the true meaning of self-denial? The following is from Catholic Encyclopedia:

Asceticism - newadvent.org/cathen/01767c.htm

Instead of withdrawing him from his fellow men and inducing moroseness and pride, it bestows on him joy and humility, inspires him with the greatest love for humanity, and cultivate that spirit of self-sacrifice which has, by its works of benevolence and charity, conferred countless benefits on the human race.

In a word, asceticism is nothing else than an enlightened method adopted in the observance of the law of God through all the various degrees of service, from the obedience of the ordinary believer to the absorbing devotion of the greatest saint, guiding each in accordance with the measure of grace imparted by the Spirit of Light and Truth.

My own understanding of self-denial is to deal with the lower passions of the self.
In other words, it is to take off our old self and put on Christ.
And the content of putting on Christ involves a broad range of things.

Self-denial is also mentioned in another thread currently discussing contemplation.
Hopefully others will also give their (name removed by moderator)ut on this topic.

 

[Anniegirl]

I really like how you answered it. Could you also kindly explain further about “denying yourself”? I don’t have words to explain as you do, but some might be confused when we talk about this - it is misunderstood that we have to hate and look down on ourself. I had seen posts like this before.

Thanks!

I might not be able to explain this well, so bear with me.

For me it all comes back to love - God made you to love and serve Him, and you can’t love Him completely or do His will if you are in love with the things of the world.

Self-denial does not mean hating yourself. God made you. He loves you, and you should love and respect yourself as befits a person made in the image and likeness of God. However, if you are truly seeking to do God’s will because you love Him, you will seek to deny yourself whatever stands in the way of complete union with Him. He will help you do it, because “With man, nothing is possible, but with God, all things are possible” and “My yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

Also, I find that whenever I deny myself a small thing, it strengthens my will for the future so that I have the courage to do God’s will even when it is difficult.

So to sum up - self-denial is to deny yourself whatever keeps you from loving God completely. I hope that helped. There is a lot more to explain but it would have been very long. As always, I recommend reading “Story of a Soul” by St. Therese of Lisieux. I have taken this all from her.

 

[Joysong]

It would be good if some of us questioning this had a copy of Fire Within, beginning on pg. 133 which points out the difference between attachments and healthy detachment. Fr. Dubay quoted St. Paul who taught that "whatever we eat or drink, or whatever we do, should reflect our thanksgiving and give honor and glory to God. That in a nutshell is the beautiful wording we hear in Eucharistic Prayer IV:

And that we might live “no longer for ourselves” but for HIM, He sent the Holy Spirit from you Father as His first gift to those who believe, to complete His work on earth and bring us to the fullness of grace.

Our mortification and self-denial should be chosen specifically to correct the wrong use of our five senses when our pleasures persist as attachments that have no reference to God, and are truly inordinate. Jesus warned us to “cut off our arm” and “pluck out our eye” if it leads us to sin. If our eye beholds beauty in its countless worthy forms and we orient our day to God with our morning offering, then this is a good thing, no?

But if our eye seeks deliberately to view objects offensive to God, and becomes an attachment we would prefer not to give up, then you can readily see how this will need radical self denial. I once had an inordinate attachment to fine clothing, and the harm it did me was to mentally preen myself in front of others like the peacock, and in doing so, often failed to listen to what they said to me. I was too busy inwardly admiring myself. I tried to correct it on my own many times, but without success. Finally I took Jesus’s words to heart and “cut it off” completely, and wore a uniform to abstain from the temptation for about 6 months. It was a wonderful fast, and at the end, I was so purified of this that I never again suffered from this temptation.

It is a small example, and surely many of you can share examples of your own, since each of us has specific temptations according to our sinful nature that need to be purified. We need to have well-ordered choices in the motive of our penance, or else they are just empty efforts that do not produce good spiritual fruit. Our sinful motivation is never hidden from God, though it may be hidden from our very selves until He brings it to our attention through prayer and inspires us to work toward detachment. Afterwards, we may then use many of the world’s goods with wisdom and right reason ordered to God, without being enslaved.

May I also point out that St. Therese and other ‘victim souls’ took upon themselves many acts of self denial and penance specifically for others, to win for them the graces they need. Belief that we must do likewise or else we cannot become a saint, is somewhat disordered, unless we have the same motive as theirs: heroic love for souls and willingness to sacrifice oneself on their behalf.

 

[DBT]

Our mortification and self-denial should be chosen specifically to correct the wrong use of our five senses when our pleasures persist as attachments that have no reference to God, and are truly inordinate.

Speaking of corrective measures of the senses, this reminds me of St. John’s teaching in The Ascent of Mt. Carmel about “first movements” - those thoughts, feelings, emotions etc that just seem to continually bubble up from our sub-conscious. Sadly, these often go on in the back of our mind like they’re on auto-pilot . . . unnoticed and unchecked.

Thus, a wonderful form of self-denial/mortification is to simply try to keep better custody of our thoughts and where they carry us off to . . . especially when so many naturally lead us toward one of the 7 deadly sins. The key in all of this is to take corrective action the moment we become “aware” our thoughts have strayed into harmful areas. When we resist in this manner, we practice virtue. When we persist after initial awareness we practice vice and launch ourselves down the slippery slope toward inordinate desires.

Dave.

PS - I second the recomendation of Fr. Dubay’s “Fire Within.” This book will help greatly with discernment on what constitutes a lawful pleasure/pastime vs. that which is truly disordered.

And like AnnieGirl and Inlight said, true self-denial is always rooted in love. To return to that word again, our very denial itself would be “disordered” if its basis was in self-hatred.

 

[Joysong]

DBT:

Thus, a wonderful form of self-denial/mortification is to simply try to keep better custody of our thoughts and where they carry us off to . . . especially when so many naturally lead us toward one of the 7 deadly sins. The key in all of this is to take corrective action the moment we become “aware” our thoughts have strayed into harmful areas.

Excellent point, Dave! The old saying, “as a man thinketh, so is he.” Spend about ten minutes with someone, let them do all the talking, and you will know the bent of their mind.

Do you think folks would be discouraged if we mention that after we conquer the corporal 7 deadly sins, they still lurk deeply in the spirit? Spiritual gluttony, spiritual anger, spiritual pride, etc. It is good to remember that these deeper roots will eventually be purified by God, because even proficients are not wholly aware of them. It helps us to have God’s own compassion on a brother or sister, knowing that they are undergoing the same difficulty toward purification as we are.

 

[cyberwolf001]

Thanks I think I get it now. It’s not like the puritan don’t have fun at all. But more of don’t make these objects idols and don’t let them keep you from wanting Heaven because you don’t know if there will be anime in Heaven, or leaving the One True Church because your favorite anime series is an occasion for sin.

 

[augarte]

Here in the Philippines on Good Friday there is a group of people that try to follow the passion of Christ. My kids once asked me if this was good or bad. I had to think about that for a while. I told them that I’m not sure what exactly those people were feeling but that we can please God in small ways. We don’t have to suffer like that to please God. By being good to your neighbor. honoring your father and mother, not telling lies, defending your friends against bullies, etc. It’s important to remember that we can please God in doing little things everyday. Sometimes if i want to do something special I fast and offer it up for the souls in purgatory.

 

[Trishie]

Life brings enough problems of its own without creating an atmosphere for yourself that is likely to lead to mental illness, scrupulosity, for a start.

“A spark of pure love is more precious before God, more useful for the soul, and richer in benedictions for the Church than all other works taken together.” (St John of the Cross) And this is from the master of self discipline!

** “In my ‘little way every thing is most ordinary; all that I do, little souls must be able to do likewise.** (Saint Therese of Lisieux)

“Walk with simplicity in the way of the Lord and do not torment your spirit. Learn to hate your faults but to hate them calmly.” (Saint Padre Pio)

Wisdom of true conversion
God, I know that Your love can free me from the self-imposed need to force my inclination and emotions into a pattern of love and virtue. Give me grace to strive faithfully, while trusting my efforts into Your care, allowing You to love me and to love others through me.

I do not seek to be ‘virtuous’ or ‘exemplary’. I seek to be to be Your living tabernacle. Let me not be ‘candle’, but part of Your light that dispels all darkness. Let me not be ‘wise’, but absorbed into Your wisdom and truth. Let me not be ‘peaceful’ or ‘trusting’, but resting faithfully in Your peace and joy. Let me not be ‘productive of good works’, rather, let me be responsive to every facet of Your love for me and for others, as vehicle of Your goodness for them.

I ask this true conversion of You, for “At night my soul longs for You and my spirit in me seeks for You.” [Isaiah 26:9]

Conversion: Your way
God, if You wish, You can cure and convert me instantly. All goodness comes from You, so any ‘merit’ of my life is already part of Your holiness. Therefore, so that no moment of my life is wasted in sin or emptiness, please transform me with Your holiness now, as a channel of grace to others and a delight to Yourself!

That You do not hasten to grant this prayer reminds me that You are God who creates in gradual progression, moulding Your masterpieces, no one like any other. You hold each creature in profound love that touches and moves each instant of life!

Help me to accept the quiet evolution of my life to wholeness as You seek my cooperation, while respecting my free will. Your wisdom neither transforms souls on demand nor coerces the unwilling person. Like the greatest silversmith, Your love delicately forms each tiny second and each unique shape of holiness and wholeness in our lives. That is Your glory in us, to form us in our prayerful obedience to the fire of love and the sharp tools of effort and tribulation.

God please grant me patient faith to accept Your fashioning. Yet, if anyone can persuade You to purify and sanctify all in my life from this instant, please let it be so! If not for me, please grant it to my dear ones, to some other soul.

 

[Trishie]

Read Matthew 25:31-46
This is what Jesus tell us is required for salvation, for our eternal happiness, to be accepted into heaven.'

Somebody please get the texts where God says basically, “What I want is mercy, not sacrifice”, but care of the widow, the orphan , the disadvantaged. that is to say, what matters is our genuine and active love and generosity to others. I need to make my husband’s lunch right now, so my priority isn’t this right now, but his stomach!" it’s lunchtime in Australia, and havn’t time to trawl for the exact text right now.

 

[littleone]

Lately reading church writings and teachings I am left feeling that if I am happy I am not follow Jesus as I should.

If I hate delicious food I am doing this wrong.

Literally from some of the church writings and stuff I see here I worry that I am going to hell unless I am a Hermit that denies all happiness and and beats himself constantly to repent of his sins…

Literally no anime, no video games, no music, no books, no TV, no movies (unless there Catholic), no going out, no having fun, no socializing, no delicious food.

Am I reading this wrong? Or have I just been running into Church teachings that overemphasis self denial to counter the laziness of most Catholics?

You might like to take a look at what i wrote in “How does Contemplation fit into the Consecration to Jesus through Mary”?
it cmovers this in some ways.
Godbless

 

[BarbaraTherese]

There are literally I think endless ways in each and every day to deny self…in our thoughts, in our words and in our deeds. Nothing startling, just little ways that truly are reversing the direction in which we could head and to our profit spiritually. Penance comes from metanoia meaning “reversal of direction”.

[catholicculture.org/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=34855](http://www.catholicculture.org/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=34855)

METANOIA

Literally repentance or penance. The term is regularly used in the Greek New Testament, especially in the Gospels and the preaching of the Apostles. Repentance is shown by faith, baptism, confession of sins, and producing fruits worthy of penance. It means a change of heart from sin to the practice of virtue. As conversion, it is fundamental to the teaching of Christ, was the first thing demanded by Peter on Pentecost, and is considered essential to the pursuit of Christian perfection. (Etym. Greek metanoein, to change one’s mind, repent, be converted, from meta- + noein, to perceive, thing, akin to Greek noos, nous, mind.)

I smiled when I read what Trishie wrote:

I need to make my husband’s lunch right now, so my priority isn’t this right now, but his stomach!" it’s lunchtime in Australia, and havn’t time to trawl for the exact text right now.

There is choice operative in the above. She could have let her husband wait until she found her text, rather she chose to put her husband and his lunch first. These are the types of situations in everyday life where we can chose denying of self …heaps of these types of occasions occur in the course of the day where we can deny self in word, in thought or in deed… little hidden ways. If we are faithful in the small things of life, then we will faithful in the bigger things in life.
One of the concepts in the Little Way of St. Therese is that The Lord will allow and send sufficient into our normal daily lives to make great saints of all of us…if we are faithful in these ordinary everyday matters. To develop such an attitude is a tremendous act of confident trust in Divine Providence - and in the notion that only God can make saints and is doing so by invitation in each and every single one of our days.
**One of my challenges at the moment is our college campus canteen is selling hot dogs, and I love hot dogs! I haven’t yet reached the virtuous place where I prefer my home made sandwiches (and the cross) to hot dogs, as I munch away reluctantly totally on my old jolly yuk sandwiches and not throw them in the bin and buy a hot dog. These are types of incidences I mean…the ordinary every day that no one sees or knows and certainly are not at all marked by heroic virtue!!! **

Luke 16
10 He that is faithful in that which is least, is faithful also in that which is greater: and he that is unjust in that which is little, is unjust also in that which is greater.

**Apologies…I’m not yelling …I can’t get the bold lettering out. **

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Read Matthew 25:31-46
This is what Jesus tell us is required for salvation, for our eternal happiness, to be accepted into heaven.'

Somebody please get the texts where God says basically, “What I want is mercy, not sacrifice”, but care of the widow, the orphan , the disadvantaged. that is to say, what matters is our genuine and active love and generosity to others. I need to make my husband’s lunch right now, so my priority isn’t this right now, but his stomach!" it’s lunchtime in Australia, and havn’t time to trawl for the exact text right now.

I think these might be the texts you are looking for, Trishie:

Matthew 9

11 And the Pharisees seeing it, said to his disciples: Why doth your master eat with publicans and sinners? 12 But Jesus hearing it, said: They that are in health need not a physician, but they that are ill. 13 Go then and learn what this meaneth, I will have mercy and not sacrifice. For I am not come to call the just, but sinners.

Osee 6

6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice: and the knowledge of God more than holocausts.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Literally no anime, no video games, no music, no books, no TV, no movies (unless there Catholic), no going out, no having fun, no socializing, no delicious food.

I’m a hard-core anime fan and I haven’t been condemned by any religious person for it. At most, they just think I’m weird. :whacky: I even ran across an anime thread here on this site.

Perhaps you’ve been listening to the Traditionalists too much, mind you, they sure remind me a little bit of fundamentalists when it comes to popular culture.