Question on the Laity and the Reading of God's Word

[onjac]

I got into a discussion with a Christian who described the Catholic church as leading 'countless of millions away from the essence of Christ’s message because they worship the “Church of the Lord” rather than the “Lord of the Church”. Then, he threw in words such as pompous and arrogance to describe the Church. Well, obviously, I had a quibble with that but the person was gracious enough to offer me his explanation.

He told me that his problem is with the laity. He said that for centuries, the clergy forbade the reading of God’s Word by the laity and that it still happens in third-world countries. He said that this resulted in spiritual and intellectual ignorance.

He’s going to elaborate more on this to me since he has to step out of the house. So far, I’m not sure what to think about what he has told me. Are there any resources that my fellow CAF members can point me to? (I hope I posted this in the right subforum. If not, please relocate it to the appropriate one)

 

[Spirithound]

There were a couple problems that came together in centuries past. First, the common people couldn’t read. Second, the common people couldn’t read Latin, which was the only language the Bible was available in. Third, either there were few translators, or nobody thought to have the Bible translated because of reason #1, and/or the Church was and still is very picky about who gets to make an official translation, because translations are very easy to screw up. Fourth, even if there were translators, and the Church had a translator commissioned to translate the Bible to a vernacular language, before the printing press, one would have to write out the entire book by hand. Monks did that, but because of the laborious process, books were very expensive.

Second prong: make sure he backs up his claims.

 

[onjac]

There were a couple problems that came together in centuries past. First, the common people couldn’t read. Second, the common people couldn’t read Latin, which was the only language the Bible was available in. Third, either there were few translators, or nobody thought to have the Bible translated because of reason #1, and/or the Church was and still is very picky about who gets to make an official translation, because translations are very easy to screw up. Fourth, even if there were translators, and the Church had a translator commissioned to translate the Bible to a vernacular language, before the printing press, one would have to write out the entire book by hand. Monks did that, but because of the laborious process, books were very expensive.

Second prong: make sure he backs up his claims.

Will do!

 

[DJK100]

I got into a discussion with a Christian who described the Catholic church as leading 'countless of millions away from the essence of Christ’s message because they worship the “Church of the Lord” rather than the “Lord of the Church”. Then, he threw in words such as pompous and arrogance to describe the Church. Well, obviously, I had a quibble with that but the person was gracious enough to offer me his explanation.

He told me that his problem is with the laity. He said that for centuries, the clergy forbade the reading of God’s Word by the laity and that it still happens in third-world countries. He said that this resulted in spiritual and intellectual ignorance.

He’s going to elaborate more on this to me since he has to step out of the house. So far, I’m not sure what to think about what he has told me. Are there any resources that my fellow CAF members can point me to? (I hope I posted this in the right subforum. If not, please relocate it to the appropriate one)

You can also mention that the Church actually gives Plenary indulgences for reading the bible. So it is actually encouraged to read the bible.

It is true that the Church did forbid people from reading the bible but that was only because the bible that was forbidden was a heretical bible filled with translation errors. The Church never forbade reading properly translated bibles though. Regarding translastion errors in the bible imagine recommending your friend to read the JW bible. That bible is designed by the Watchtower society to lead you to particular conclusions through somewhat sketchy translation errors and as such would not be encouraged to be read by the Church.

Also, the first book off the printing press was the Catholic bible. This was an attempt to get the bible into as many hands as possible.

Does it really make sense for the Church to print all these bibles only to forbide people to read them?

Has he brought up how the Church chained bibles to the pulpit so that people couldn’t read them yet? I amwillng to be that one is coming also.

This might help you as well…

evangelizationstation.com/Pamphlets/037%20Bible%20Burning%20and%20other%20Allegations.pdf
evangelizationstation.com/Pamphlets/050%20Catholic%20Answers.pdf

 

[JackVk]

If he plays the “chained up Bible” card, go back to the point that Bibles were expensive back then, and you would chain it up just like you would keep the pricey sound equipment locked up today.

 

[LegoGE1947]

You can also mention that the Church actually gives Plenary indulgences for reading the bible. So it is actually encouraged to read the bible.

It is true that the Church did forbid people from reading the bible but that was only because the bible that was forbidden was a heretical bible filled with translation errors. The Church never forbade reading properly translated bibles though. Regarding translastion errors in the bible imagine recommending your friend to read the JW bible. That bible is designed by the Watchtower society to lead you to particular conclusions through somewhat sketchy translation errors and as such would not be encouraged to be read by the Church.

Also, the first book off the printing press was the Catholic bible. This was an attempt to get the bible into as many hands as possible.

Does it really make sense for the Church to print all these bibles only to forbide people to read them?

There were only some Bibles that the Church forbade people to read. The reason was because these bibles were bad translations. Otherwise the Catholic Church has no problems with people reading Scripture. In fact St Jerome is quoted as “Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ.”

 

[DJK100]

There were only some Bibles that the Church forbade people to read. The reason was because these bibles were bad translations. Otherwise the Catholic Church has no problems with people reading Scripture. In fact St Jerome is quoted as “Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ.”

Ummm… that is what I said in my post.

 

[jeannetherese]

"There were only some Bibles that the Church forbade people to read. The reason was because these bibles were bad translations. Otherwise the Catholic Church has no problems with people reading Scripture. In fact St Jerome is quoted as “Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ.”

According to my Illustrated Lives of the Saints, Saint Jerome lived from 340-420 A.D. That’s a pretty early endorsement of getting familiar with Sacred Scripture

 

[onjac]

Thanks for help!

 

[DJK100]

I got into a discussion with a Christian who described the Catholic church as leading 'countless of millions away from the essence of Christ’s message because they worship the “Church of the Lord” rather than the “Lord of the Church”. Then, he threw in words such as pompous and arrogance to describe the Church. Well, obviously, I had a quibble with that but the person was gracious enough to offer me his explanation.

He told me that his problem is with the laity. He said that for centuries, the clergy forbade the reading of God’s Word by the laity and that it still happens in third-world countries. He said that this resulted in spiritual and intellectual ignorance.

He’s going to elaborate more on this to me since he has to step out of the house. So far, I’m not sure what to think about what he has told me. Are there any resources that my fellow CAF members can point me to? (I hope I posted this in the right subforum. If not, please relocate it to the appropriate one)

You might want to also give him this…

evangelizationstation.com/Pamphlets/280%20Scripture%20in%20the%20Mass.pdf

that shows you just how much scripture you get form simply attending Mass. Again does this look like the Church is hiding scripture from anyone.

Also,

"But there is another possibility, and that is Toulouse, France, where a council was held in 1229. And, yes, that council dealt with the Bible. It was organized in reaction to the Albigensian or Catharist heresy, which held that there are two gods and that marriage is evil because all matter (and thus physical flesh) is evil. From this the heretics concluded that fornication could be no sin, and they even encouraged suicide among their members. In order to promulgate their sect, the Albigensians published an inaccurate translation of the Bible in the vernacular language (rather like the Jehovah’s Witnesses of today publishing their severely flawed New World Translation of the Bible, which has been deliberately mistranslated to support the sect’s claims). Had it been an accurate translation, the Church would not have been concerned. Vernacular versions had been appearing for centuries. But what came from the hands of the Albigensians was an adulterated Bible. The bishops at Toulouse forbade the reading of it because it was inaccurate. In this they were caring for their flocks, just as a Protestant minister of today might tell his flock not to read the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ New World Translation. "
catholic.com/tracts/catholic-inventions

 

[LegoGE1947]

Ummm… that is what I said in my post.

I guess that proves that “Great minds think alike!” I didn’t see what you posted until I had already pressed the “submit” button. Nevertheless, the fact that St Jerome said this early on in Church history is quite an endorsement for the laity being acquainted with the Bible.

 

[LegoGE1947]

If he plays the “chained up Bible” card, go back to the point that Bibles were expensive back then, and you would chain it up just like you would keep the pricey sound equipment locked up today.

If you go to a bank you will find ink pens chained to the desks to keep customers from walking off with them. And as you point out many public places keep electronic equipment locked up. For example stores that sell computers or iPads keep them locked up until a customer actually wants to buy one. Or many stores have devices attached to merchandise that if the merchandise is not run through a check-out line an alarm will go off when a person tries to leave the store without paying for the item.

 

[DJK100]

I guess that proves that “Great minds think alike!” I didn’t see what you posted until I had already pressed the “submit” button. Nevertheless, the fact that St Jerome said this early on in Church history is quite an endorsement for the laity being acquainted with the Bible.

No worries. Sometimes I skim posts to and may miss somethings. No harm no foul.

Also, OP, you can quote the Catechism number 133…

“The Church forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful… to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. Ignorance of Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.”

 

[LegoGE1947]

No worries. Sometimes I skim posts to and may miss somethings. No harm no foul.

Also, OP, you can quote the Catechism number 133…

“The Church forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful… to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. Ignorance of Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.”

I was protestant before I converted to Catholicism about 10 years ago. and when my wife or I would go to Catholic Bible studies we could quote scripture that Catholics in the room didn’t know existed simply because many of them had not read or studied scripture as we were encouraged to do as protestants. The Catholics really “learned” from us even though we didn’t think it was such a big thing that we seemed to know scripture better than they did. It was and is just a natural thing for us. (Actually, we just thought everybody was acquainted with scripture. Boy, were we mistaken!)

 

[DJK100]

I was protestant before I converted to Catholicism about 10 years ago. and when my wife or I would go to Catholic Bible studies we could quote scripture that Catholics in the room didn’t know existed simply because many of them had not read or studied scripture as we were encouraged to do as protestants. The Catholics really “learned” from us even though we didn’t think it was such a big thing that we seemed to know scripture better than they did. It was and is just a natural thing for us. (Actually, we just thought everybody was acquainted with scripture. Boy, were we mistaken!)

Yeah, I think that is one of the things I love about Protestants is usually they really know how to quote scripture. I think a lot of times because Catholics also have a teaching magistrium and Sacred Tradition some Catholics feel they don’t need to know the bible as well as they should. (I admit that I am terrible about quoting Books, Chapter and verse. I know what the bible says just not always were to get the actuall chapter and verse for the quote I use.) Of course I think that this is faulty logic and goes directly against what the Church actually teaches as evidenced by what the Catechsim actually says.

In fact, I always love conversing with Protestant converts because they usually really know their stuff and I almost always learn something new.

 

[JackVk]

Yeah, I think that is one of the things I love about Protestants is usually they really know how to quote scripture. I think a lot of times because Catholics also have a teaching magistrium and Sacred Tradition some Catholics feel they don’t need to know the bible as well as they should. (I admit that I am terrible about quoting Books, Chapter and verse. I know what the bible says just not always were to get the actuall chapter and verse for the quote I use.) Of course I think that this is faulty logic and goes directly against what the Church actually teaches as evidenced by what the Catechsim actually says.

In fact, I always love conversing with Protestant converts because they usually really know their stuff.

The way I see it, we Catholics DO know the Scriptures. We just don’t know the citations. It’s like one person knowing the exact street address and the other say, “uh, they live that-a-way.”

 

[DJK100]

The way I see it, we Catholics DO know the Scriptures. We just don’t know the citations. It’s like one person knowing the exact street address and the other say, “uh, they live that-a-way.”

I totally agree. It just makes it easier in a discussion to be able to back up your point with Chapter and verse (something I am horrible at and Protestants seem to be rather good at) rather than just saying “the bible says somewhere.”

That is my goal, to one day be able to cite chapter and verse with ease.

 

[LegoGE1947]

Yeah, I think that is one of the things I love about Protestants is usually they really know how to quote scripture. I think a lot of times because Catholics also have a teaching magistrium and Sacred Tradition some Catholics feel they don’t need to know the bible as well as they should. (I admit that I am terrible about quoting Books, Chapter and verse. I know what the bible says just not always were to get the actuall chapter and verse for the quote I use.) Of course I think that this is faulty logic and goes directly against what the Church actually teaches as evidenced by what the Catechsim actually says.

In fact, I always love conversing with Protestant converts because they usually really know their stuff and I almost always learn something new.

Myself, as a protestant, I couldn’t always quote scripture, but I had very little trouble finding a specific verse in the Bible. That is one thing about having been protestant that I will always treasure–the ability to find my way around in the Bible. However as a Catholic there ARE those 7 old testament books most Protestant bibles don’t have. So, I’m a bit shaky on those.

 

[Spirithound]

If you go to a bank you will find ink pens chained to the desks to keep customers from walking off with them.

I find this hilarious in comparison to the currently-discussed context

 

[bmadamsberry]

I think it should be pointed out that the Church, for many centuries, did not emphasize Scripture reading. While they didn’t outright refuse the practice, they sure didn’t make things easier. And, while the Ordinary Form of the Mass in now often prayed in the vernacular, when it was in Latin many of the Scriptural references were lost on the laity.

Certainly, though, the Holy Spirit, through the Church, compiled the Bible together and have at times tried to make to more available (the first Bible translated into English was a Catholic version). The Church since Vatican II has also strongly emphasized Scripture reading, more so than in the past.

I also think that what the OP’s friend is important in regards to worshiping the “L-rd of the Church” as opposed to the “Church of the L-rd.” While these two things are not in conflict with each other, we must remember that there is a hierarchy of honor, and the L-rd is infinitely higher than the Church.

If it seems this post is too critical, it is simply because everything else that has been stated as been fairly accurate and good information, and so I’m only attempted to make sure that there is a balanced view and that we don’t try to sugar coat anything.