Question on the Ordinary Form of the Mass

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I have recently became very good friends with a very traditional and has Issues with the Ordinary Form of the Mass. He believes that only the Extraordinary form of the Mass should be said. One of his main arguments on why this institution of the Ordinary Form of the Mass is incorrect is because of something said in the council of Trent.

In Session 7 On the Sacraments in General it states
CANON XIII.-If any one saith, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn [Page 56] administration of the sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed, by every pastor of the churches, into other new ones; let him be anathema.

It is his understanding that every pastor of the Church includes the Pope. He says that it is more properly translated as whomsoever of the pastors of the churches. It has always been my understanding that the Church has control over the laws surrounding the Mass and the Pope had the right to alter the Mass. If my friend misinterpreting something here?

Please help.
Thank you and God Bless!
 
The Ordinary Form of the Mass is currently part of the “received and approved rites of the Catholic Church” (Latin Rite). Thus there is no conflict with the cited canon.
 
ByzCathCantor said:
The Ordinary Form of the Mass is currently part of the “received and approved rites of the Catholic Church” (Latin Rite). Thus there is no conflict with the cited canon.
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He believes that because of this canon that it was an error to make it a received and approved rite of the Catholic Church." Is the a law in Canon law the gives the Pope the right to make the Ordinary Form of the Mass approved? I would like to show him this.
 
LennyFL said:
He believes that because of this canon that it was an error to make it a received and approved rite of the Catholic Church." Is the a law in Canon law the gives the Pope the right to make the Ordinary Form of the Mass approved? I would like to show him this.
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The Pope is actually ABOVE Canon Law, Canon Law is issued under his authority, ergo, it is under him.

Pastor Aeternus, from Vatican I, should be recommended reading for your friend. It clearly outlines the power of Holy See

In regards to the pre-eminence of the Pope, I here is a good section
Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world.
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And
Since the Roman Pontiff, by the divine right of the apostolic primacy, governs the whole Church, we likewise teach and declare that he is the supreme judge of the faithful [52] , and that in all cases which fall under ecclesiastical jurisdiction recourse may be had to his judgment [53] . The sentence of the Apostolic See (than which there is no higher authority) is not subject to revision by anyone, nor may anyone lawfully pass judgment thereupon[54]. And so they stray from the genuine path of truth who maintain that it is lawful to appeal from the judgments of the Roman pontiffs to an ecumenical council as if this were an authority superior to the Roman Pontiff.
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I would claim that your friend is guilty of exactly what Vatican ONE taught against.

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/papae1.htm
 
The older canon laws are replaced by the newer ones when the new canons are promulgated and are in conflict with the older canons.

Can. 2 For the most part the Code does not define the rites which must be observed in celebrating liturgical actions. Therefore, liturgical laws in force until now retain their force unless one of them is contrary to the canons of the Code.
 
DCNBILL said:
The older canon laws are replaced by the newer ones when the new canons are promulgated and are in conflict with the older canons.

Can. 2 For the most part the Code does not define the rites which must be observed in celebrating liturgical actions. Therefore, liturgical laws in force until now retain their force unless one of them is contrary to the canons of the Code.
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Could you send me a link to the Canon? Has there been new Canon laws after that of the council of Trent that contradicts the canon which I just quoted?
 
The Pope’s power is supreme, and is subordinated to no authority whatsoever save that of divine law. Canon Law has authority solely because the Pope promulgated it. The Pope is not Pope because of Canon Law. Canon Law is law because of the Pope.

The form of the Mass is not an ordinance of divine law, except for the Consecration. Everything else is licit only by the approval of the Holy See and promulgated by the Pope.

Trent said no priest can on his own authority despise and willfully omit any part of the approved and received rites of the Church. Well, in 1969, the Pope, by virtue of the supreme authority that is his, made the Ordinary Form the received and approved rite of the Catholic Church, through the Apostolic Constitution “Missale Romanum”.

Anyone who states that the Ordinary Form is wrong is despising (contenming) an approved and received rite of the Catholic Church. HE is the one violating Trent’s canon, not us.
 
Brendan said:
The Pope is actually ABOVE Canon Law, Canon Law is issued under his authority, ergo, it is under him.

Pastor Aeternus, from Vatican I, should be recommended reading for your friend. It clearly outlines the power of Holy See

In regards to the pre-eminence of the Pope, I here is a good section

And

I would claim that your friend is guilty of exactly what Vatican ONE taught against.

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/papae1.htm
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I think I just understood what the text in bold was saying. It is specifically saying that what the Pope has to say is above canon law? Is this only when the Pope is speaking ex Cathedra though?
This is the quote that is found at the bottom of the link that you just posted.
“9. Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the christian faith, to the glory of God our savior, for the exaltation of the Catholic religion and for the salvation of the christian people, with the approval of the Sacred Council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable.”
 
porthos11 said:
The Pope’s power is supreme, and is subordinated to no authority whatsoever save that of divine law. Canon Law has authority solely because the Pope promulgated it. The Pope is not Pope because of Canon Law. Canon Law is law because of the Pope.

The form of the Mass is not an ordinance of divine law, except for the Consecration. Everything else is licit only by the approval of the Holy See and promulgated by the Pope.

Trent said no priest can on his own authority despise and willfully omit any part of the approved and received rites of the Church. Well, in 1969, the Pope, by virtue of the supreme authority that is his, made the Ordinary Form the received and approved rite of the Catholic Church, through the Apostolic Constitution “Missale Romanum”.

Anyone who states that the Ordinary Form is wrong is despising (contenming) an approved and received rite of the Catholic Church. HE is the one violating Trent’s canon, not us.
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Is there somewhere in writing that the Holy See has approved of the mass? I am trying to gather as much information as possible before I present all this to him. Thank you so much!
 
LennyFL said:
He believes that because of this canon that it was an error to make it a received and approved rite of the Catholic Church." Is the a law in Canon law the gives the Pope the right to make the Ordinary Form of the Mass approved? I would like to show him this.
Click to expand...
That’s not logical, as the Canon does not bind the Church to maintain rites in perpetuity as they existed at that time in history, but simply reinforces that the current received and approved rites are to be used.

The form of liturgy is not really a matter of canon law. “Rite” represents an ecclesiastical tradition regarding the manner in which the sacraments are celebrated. While the essence of the Sacraments are given by Divine Revelation in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, the manner in which they are administered is a matter of tradition (lowercase t) unique to each Particular Church, including the Latin Church. The leaders of the Latin Church (the Pope and his brother bishops) are entrusted to maintain the integrity of the Sacraments within their Church, accomplished in part through promulgation of related Canon Law. However, the manner in which the Sacraments are administered, according to the traditions of a given Church, are at the discretion of the leaders of each Particular Church. This is true in the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches as well.

So, it is within the discretion of the Pope and his brother bishops, as leaders of the Latin Church which uses the Latin or Roman Rite, to modify that Rite. The Mass is part of the Rite by which the Sacrament of the Eucharist is administered. So long as the revised form of Mass does not create a situation where Canon Law regarding administration or Divine Law regarding the essence of the Eucharist are violated, the form of the liturgy is rightly governed by the bishops in their discretion, as trustees of tradition (lowercase t).
 
LennyFL said:
Is there somewhere in writing that the Holy See has approved of the mass? I am trying to gather as much information as possible before I present all this to him. Thank you so much!
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Pope Paul VI promulgated the revised rite of Mass with his Apostolic Constitution Missale Romanum on April 3, 1969.
 
ByzCathCantor said:
That’s not logical, as the Canon does not bind the Church to maintain rites in perpetuity as they existed at that time in history, but simply reinforces that the current received and approved rites are to be used.

The form of liturgy is not really a matter of canon law. “Rite” represents an ecclesiastical tradition regarding the manner in which the sacraments are celebrated. While the essence of the Sacraments are given by Divine Revelation in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, the manner in which they are administered is a matter of tradition (lowercase t) unique to each Particular Church, including the Latin Church. The leaders of the Latin Church (the Pope and his brother bishops) are entrusted to maintain the integrity of the Sacraments within their Church, accomplished in part through promulgation of related Canon Law. However, the manner in which the Sacraments are administered, according to the traditions of a given Church, are at the discretion of the leaders of each Particular Church. This is true in the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches as well.

So, it is within the discretion of the Pope and his brother bishops, as leaders of the Latin Church which uses the Latin or Roman Rite, to modify that Rite. The Mass is part of the Rite by which the Sacrament of the Eucharist is administered. So long as the revised form of Mass does not create a situation where Canon Law regarding administration or Divine Law regarding the essence of the Eucharist are violated, the form of the liturgy is rightly governed by the bishops in their discretion, as trustees of tradition (lowercase t).
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Oh dang, I understand it. This Canon cannot bind future Popes into not receiving and approving New Rites because there are many rites in the Catholic Church and not all of them occurred at the same time. There cannot be a point in time where the Pope says "Okay, we’ve reached our limit in Rites, no new ones can form from here on out. Even if the Pope said that, it could not bind future Pope’s because that is in no way divine law. This makes sense. I think I can explain this to my friend. If there are more documents explaining this, that would be great! Thank you!
 
LennyFL said:
Is there somewhere in writing that the Holy See has approved of the mass? I am trying to gather as much information as possible before I present all this to him. Thank you so much!
Click to expand...
Apostolic Constitution Missale Romanum promulgating the revised Mass:
w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19690403_missale-romanum.html

In conclusion, we wish to give the force of law to all that we have set forth concerning the new Roman Missal. In promulgating the official edition of the Roman Missal, Our predecessor, St. Pius V, presented it as an instrument of liturgical unity and as a witness to the purity of the worship the Church. While leaving room in the new Missal, according to the order of the Second Vatican Council, “for legitimate variations and adaptations,”(15) we hope nevertheless that the Missal will be received by the faithful as an instrument which bears witness to and which affirms the common unity of all. Thus, in the great diversity of languages, one unique prayer will rise as an acceptable offering to our Father in heaven, through our High-Priest Jesus Christ, in the Holy Spirit.

…
We wish that these Our decrees and prescriptions may be firm and effective now and in the future, notwithstanding, to the extent necessary, the apostolic constitutions and ordinances issued by Our predecessors, and other prescriptions, even those deserving particular mention and derogation.
 
LennyFL said:
I have recently became very good friends with a very traditional and has Issues with the Ordinary Form of the Mass. He believes that only the Extraordinary form of the Mass should be said. One of his main arguments on why this institution of the Ordinary Form of the Mass is incorrect is because of something said in the council of Trent.

In Session 7 On the Sacraments in General it states
CANON XIII.-If any one saith, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn [Page 56] administration of the sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed, by every pastor of the churches, into other new ones; let him be anathema.

It is his understanding that every pastor of the Church includes the Pope. **He says that it is more properly translated as whomsoever of the pastors of the churches. ** It has always been my understanding that the Church has control over the laws surrounding the Mass and the Pope had the right to alter the Mass. If my friend misinterpreting something here?

Please help.
Thank you and God Bless!
Click to expand...
This has bothered me too, until someone pointed out that Pope Pius XII with his Mediator Dei (1947) pronounced that the Pope AND ONLY the Pope can change the liturgy. This was in preparation for changing the Holy Week Rites in 1955 among other things.
 
ByzCathCantor said:
The Ordinary Form of the Mass is currently part of the “received and approved rites of the Catholic Church” (Latin Rite).
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But Cardinal Ratzinger called it “fabricated,” no?

Can’t be “received” if it’s fabricated, according to definition.

As I pointed out Pope Pius XII essentially removed the anathema and deemed it necessary to change some parts of the liturgy. The proper procedures were followed, it appears.
 
Brendan said:
The Pope is actually ABOVE Canon Law, Canon Law is issued under his authority, ergo, it is under him.
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The Canon Law in question at the time was the 1917 Code, which did reverse some of the anathemas of Trent but not this one. Pope Pius XII partially overturned the anathema and included himself as the SOLE authority on liturgical changes. This did become an issue in the 1960’s when the bishops took it on their own authority to add a few canons to the liturgy before Pope Paul settled on the four we currently use.
 
This is just a passing comment, but if there’s one thing that irritates me, it’s lay Catholics setting up their own, personal interpretation of Church documents, and claiming their understanding trumps that of the Magisterium.

The Church interprets the Church.

Joe Charlie, who rightfully loves incense, does not.
 
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