Question on Traditional Seminaries

[AcolyteLector]

I would also like to know the reason why you say “not SSPX”. I can understand the reservations of some. If you exclude the SSPX then the only other traditional options are the Fraternity of St Peter and the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest.

This actually isn’t true. There are the Canons of New Jerusalem and the Canons of St. John Cantius–among many others, including Spanish groups. Look around for these.

It really does depend on where you stand on the Mass issue mainly. It is the Mass that matters. I have personally spoken at length with over a dozen priests and a bishop of the SSPX and a few priests of the FSSP and you will not find one SSPX priest who would say the New Mass, wheras many FSSP priests have said the Novus Ordo Mass.

So? Our Holy Father says it, why shouldn’t some curate of the FSSP? Its a matter of choice and they can’t be compelled to–that’s really all that matters. As a member of one of the old indult societies, you will not be forced to… but you’ll want to, because you love your flock and most of your flock grew up with the OF.

Also, from my own experience (others will have their own) I find that SSPX priests are more outspoken about the issues with Vatican II and the new errors, whereas FSSP tend to be more reserved, from the pulpit at least, tend to tip toe around the Bishop.

Speaking about these things will not change them. Re-integrating traditional elements back into the everyday practice of the Church will.

Also, some of the lecturers who teach in the FSSP would not be alowed the teach in the SSPX.

None of the lecturers who teach at the Winona seminary would be allowed to teach at the majority of Catholic seminaries in the world.

As you probably can tell I attend an SSPX Mass, and have deceided to do so after a long time of study and prayer. The SSPX is not schismatic, as the liberals would suggest nor was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated, facts which I have debated with many priests and an auxillary bishop.

** Naturally, much of what is said about the SSPX is hyperbole. This doesn’t change the fact that their negotiations with the Holy See are reaching an end, one fourth of their ‘episcopate’ has made a second career out of reactionary antisemitic rhetoric, and their absolutism ghettoizes** Catholic traditionalism.

I’ve detected a great many crypto-SSPX agent provocateurs on traditionalist forums, saying a great many things against the regularized Catholic groups who say the EO (e.g. that the ICKSP turn their seminarians into slaves, that they’re lavender-ized, &c.). I consider this very poor form.

 

[Iotaunum]

AcolyteLector -

Originally Posted by Iotaunum
I would also like to know the reason why you say “not SSPX”. I can understand the reservations of some. If you exclude the SSPX then the only other traditional options are the Fraternity of St Peter and the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest.

This actually isn’t true. There are the Canons of New Jerusalem and the Canons of St. John Cantius–among many others, including Spanish groups. Look around for these.

** Truth does not come into this, I was giving an opinion. I merely considered the larger orders. It was obviously not meant to be an exhaustive list. I think he got the point anyway.**
It really does depend on where you stand on the Mass issue mainly. It is the Mass that matters. I have personally spoken at length with over a dozen priests and a bishop of the SSPX and a few priests of the FSSP and you will not find one SSPX priest who would say the New Mass, wheras many FSSP priests have said the Novus Ordo Mass. *

So? Our Holy Father says it, why shouldn’t some curate of the FSSP? Its a matter of choice and they can’t be compelled to–that’s really all that matters. As a member of one of the old indult societies, you will not be forced to… but you’ll want to, because you love your flock and most of your flock grew up with the OF.

You do not seem to be aware of the reasons why a lot of Catholics chose to attend a traditional Mass and not a Novus Ordo Mass. Yes, there may be some who merely think it’s better (like one type of car is better than another - but both get to the destination) and some who merely prefer the beauty of one rite, or are attracted to the externalities etc. However there are a lot of others who object to the New rite on theological grounds - myself included. I do not travel the miles I do for asthetics I assure you. Therefore it is not a matter of attending rites as a matter of preference, nor is it a matter of the Pope does it therefore it is justified, the Pope says it therefore it can’t be worng. Also, I have heard myself of Priests who left the SSPX and entered the Fraternity of St Peter only to be told they must celebrate at least one Novus Ordo Mass, and I have seen them celebrate it. This is my experience: yours may differ according to the priests you have spoken to.

*Also, from my own experience (others will have their own) I find that SSPX priests are more outspoken about the issues with Vatican II and the new errors, whereas FSSP tend to be more reserved, from the pulpit at least, tend to tip toe around the Bishop. *

Speaking about these things will not change them. Re-integrating traditional elements back into the everyday practice of the Church will.

Again, I was speaking from my own experience. I do infact find a lot tip-toeing around the bishops and infact Priests who say the indult have been trained, oftentimes, in a modernistic environment where their theology is not orthodox. These priests cannot, therefore, be expected to preach traditionally and orthooxly from the pulpit. I do not judge their person, they have been trained in this liberal environment. Also, since the majority of those attending the Mass do not study traditional philosophy/theology/exegesis etc. preaching from the pulpit is their main way of hearing about errors and avoiding them. Erecting communion rails next week will not explain why the Church had refused communion in the hand for so many centuries.

Also, some of the lecturers who teach in the FSSP would not be alowed the teach in the SSPX.

None of the lecturers who teach at the Winona seminary would be allowed to teach at the majority of Catholic seminaries in the world.

I do not consider this degrading given what is being taught in the majority of Catholic seminaries today, based on multiple studies and lecturers, such as here in Ireland, pointing out how the environment is anything but Catholic.

*As you probably can tell I attend an SSPX Mass, and have deceided to do so after a long time of study and prayer. The SSPX is not schismatic, as the liberals would suggest nor was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated, facts which I have debated with many priests and an auxillary bishop. *

Naturally, much of what is said about the SSPX is hyperbole. This doesn’t change the fact that their negotiations with the Holy See are reaching an end, one fourth of their ‘episcopate’ has made a second career out of reactionary antisemitic rhetoric, and their absolutism ghettoizes Catholic traditionalism.

**Well you are entitled to you own opinion. All I can say is that for me it is the theological matters which are important, and any commentary about secular issues is as infallible as the Popes! **

I’ve detected a great many crypto-SSPX agent provocateurs on traditionalist forums, saying a great many things against the regularized Catholic groups who say the EO (e.g. that the ICKSP turn their seminarians into slaves, that they’re lavender-ized, &c.). I consider this very poor form.

**
Well I hope you do not consider me to be a "crypto-SSPX agent provocateur " which you claim to have uncovered. I know that following traditional teaching makes life difficult but when you do nothing differently than what the Church has done for centuries then you can be sure you won’t go wrong. Also, I make nothing hidden about my position. Anything I say I can back up with solid theological arguments - but I do not go around bringing issues up to be provocative. **

 

[AcolyteLector]

Seeing as this is a vocations thread, I’ll address the portion of it that’s relevant to the OP’s vocations question without creating a longer debate. (hopefully)

Numerical size does not really matter in terms of vocations. The community offers a way of life and charism for the person to engage in. For instance, the Canons of St. John Cantius are small, because they’re administering the EO to certain parishes in Chicago–a very local endeavor. This does not make the a hokey little ‘mom-and-pop’ religious community–in fact, it would probably suit OP better because its in America and he won’t be forced to (horror of horrors) move to a parish overseas. Nevertheless, this still doesn’t help his Spanish problem (as its on the wax, across the country).

As for your opinion, if you revisit the language you used, it was set up as an exclusive disjunction–either you have the FSSP/ICKRP or the SSPX, and then you seemed to casually exculpate the SSPX. Truth always enters into it. That’s the wrong impression to give young men, that they really only have two choices.

I understand that your position on the OF is sincere, and I don’t want you to think that I’m looking at you skeptically on this issue. However, this only considers the issue from the layperson’s perspective–for the priest, they are not compelled to say the OF (if I understand the FSSP/ICKRP correctly), but* they may want to*. As for your anecdotal story to the contrary… was its source a member of the SSPX?

 

[Bl_Pope_Pius_IX]

FIRSTLY, I want to proudly say I am no longer failing Spanish, though I do have a solid D. With this I will speak to my Guidance Counselor and see what must be done. (Grades must be in by the 22nd of March, so I must pray and think quickly…)

Secondly, I actually have looked into the Canons Regular of Saint John Cantius. However, I do want to commit myself to one of the larger groups/Orders/Societies/etc.

I will be keeping everyone posted as to the decision that will be made.

I thank everyone for their opinions and thoughts. They are all welcome, as well.

Pius :knight1:

 

[Iotaunum]

Seeing as this is a vocations thread, I’ll address the portion of it that’s relevant to the OP’s vocations question without creating a longer debate. (hopefully)

I agree; and I was not trying to create any debate which is why I did not put foward any arguments or get into specifics.

As for your opinion, if you revisit the language you used, it was set up as an exclusive disjunction–either you have the FSSP/ICKRP or the SSPX, and then you seemed to casually exculpate the SSPX. Truth always enters into it. That’s the wrong impression to give young men, that they really only have two choices.

Again, I was merely considering the larger orders. I am sure that he did not get the impression that I was listing every order which was considered traditional. If he did, then I apologise. Also, I left it to his own choice when I said; “I suggest you pray for enlightenment and find out what your stance is on the Mass and other issues, then you will know which seminary will form you best according to your position.” I only discussed the SSPX more since I have more experience with them. I attended the others while I was considering the validity and canonical arguments for the SSPX as well as jurisdiction. It would be uncharitable for me not to offer this advise when I had spent many years investigating the various societies myself. But I left it to his judgement as I always do. People do not come to any position but by their own free will. If he want’s to enter another order then I wish him well and will pray for him, as I do for every seminarian. I have no axe to grind.

I understand that your position on the OF is sincere, and I don’t want you to think that I’m looking at you skeptically on this issue. However, this only considers the issue from the layperson’s perspective–for the priest, they are not compelled to say the OF (if I understand the FSSP/ICKRP correctly), but* they may want to*. As for your anecdotal story to the contrary… was its source a member of the SSPX?

I don’t want to go off topic here, nor begin a debate but from my point of view anyone who thinks it IS licit and correct to say the Novus Ordo Mass, and can do so in conscience has a completely different theological outlook from someone say in the SSPX. I know this beacuse I have studied this issue in great depth and talked with many priests/bishops from all orders and none. My point is if one comes to a clear position on the Mass issue, then he will know which seminary to attend and which to avoid. To the average person it may seem trivial but it changes the whole formation of a priest and his theological outlook. Thus if he can say the New Mass in conscience the SSPX is not the place to go. If he can, then another order may be suitable.

The source for the information I gave was from many accounts. Two came from people who used to attend these masses and had witnessed the celebration of the New Mass first hand. They both questioned the priests and he said he was obliged to celebrate once a year to show that he had no problems theologically speaking with the church’s ordinary form. This prompted them to attend the SSPX chapel. I met another at a confirmation who shared a similar story. It may not be a first hand experience, but I have heard similar stories and I even spoke to one FSSP priest who said that although he was not obliged to say it, he knew of others who were more outspoken about the New Mass who were obliged to say it as a test of obedience. This was the only “first hand” information I got.

Also to “Bl Pope Pius IX” - let us know how you get on and we will continue to pray for you.

 

[Bl_Pope_Pius_IX]

Alright, I understand I have put this off for a bit, but my schedule has been finalized.

I have decided that for next year, I will NOT be taking Spanish III.

My reasons are as follows:

-The desire and reccomendation for a Theology Elective
-The advice of my CURRENT Spanish teacher
-The advice of my current Duidance Counselor
-And also, the lack of Foreign Language requirements for the FSSP, etc.

I thank ALL of you for your prayers, and I feel that this is indeed, the best way to go about doing God’s Will, and to further my discernment to the Traditional Priesthood.

Anymore questions - simply ask.

Pius :knight1:

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Alright, I understand I have put this off for a bit, but my schedule has been finalized.

I have decided that for next year, I will NOT be taking Spanish III.

My reasons are as follows:

-The desire and reccomendation for a Theology Elective
-The advice of my CURRENT Spanish teacher
-The advice of my current Duidance Counselor
-And also, the lack of Foreign Language requirements for the FSSP, etc.

I thank ALL of you for your prayers, and I feel that this is indeed, the best way to go about doing God’s Will, and to further my discernment to the Traditional Priesthood.

Anymore questions - simply ask.

Pius :knight1:

Just one further point.

There is no such thing as the “Traditional Priesthood”, there is just the Priesthood.

Please keep that in mind. When you use a phrase like this you automatically insult/offend those of us in formation for the priesthood that are not in any religious community that is considered “Traditional” as it seems you are saying we are in formation for the “unTraditional” priesthood.

 

[Bl_Pope_Pius_IX]

Just one further point.

There is no such thing as the “Traditional Priesthood”, there is just the Priesthood.

Please keep that in mind. When you use a phrase like this you automatically insult/offend those of us in formation for the priesthood that are not in any religious community that is considered “Traditional” as it seems you are saying we are in formation for the “unTraditional” priesthood.

My apologies.

Pius :knight1:

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

My apologies.

Pius :knight1:

Actually I want to apologize. I knew what you meant I was just a bit touchy.

Long story as to why but that would only be an excuse.

Please pray for me.

 

[Bl_Pope_Pius_IX]

Actually I want to apologize. I knew what you meant I was just a bit touchy.

Long story as to why but that would only be an excuse.

Please pray for me.

You had all the right to be touchy. It was a poor choice of words on my part.

In any case, you are forgiven.

Pius :knight1:

 

[Weejee]

This was what one of my favourite priest-saints had to do to get into seminary:

Yeah, he did take a different direction from you: he wanted to be a diocesesan priest.

1. Let the bishop’s office know he wanted to be a priest.
2. They checked on his piety (check!) and on his h.s. grades. (First in class!)
3. They told him he could go to the diocesan seminary. Except for one thing: he’d have to pay.
4. His parents were raising seven other children. No way on earth could they pay.
5. Plan B: Tell Uncle A, who knew a big shot prelate from their rucky-tuck hometown.
6. Uncle A talks to his fellow Landsmann, and snags a FREE PLACE at a seminary in a fine University town.
7. Everyone dances a jig. Hoorah!

Good luck to you, fine young man. If I were a priest, I’d wear a cassock too. Since I’m not a priest, but am a lady, I can wear long dresses. Hooray!

God bless you, John-Mary Mastai-Feretti