Question one million and one on praying to saints

[rwillenborg]

I’ll be chillin with some protestants in a week or so, and I have an icon bracelet with mary on it and I know this will come up, soooo…

1. In revelation 5:8 the saints bring their prayers to the Lord in golden bowls. How do we know that these are the petitions brought to THEM by US, rather than THEIR OWN petitions? And in NT isn’t EVERY christian a saint, and not just the dead ones? So couldn’t these prayers of the saints be our own petitions to the Lord?How do we know these are the petitions of those who preceded us to heaven?
2. In Matt 17:3 at the transfiguration Moses and Elijah appear with Jesus at the transfiguration. Catholics say that this shows that communing with the dead is okay. A protestant would say ‘But that was Jesus. HE can do that. We said WE couldn’t.’ What should be my response?

 

[Cachonga]

1. Rev 5:8 says these are 24 elders (not necessarily saints, but even if they were, which ones? I’m sure there are more than 24 saints in the Catholic Church). Furthermore, there is no indication from the Scriptures that these were prayers offered directly to them (I would say that the bowls with the prayers were given to these elders, just like their harps were given to them by God).
2. In Matt 17:3 Peter, James and John witness the transfiguration of Jesus, and see Him talking to Moses and Elijah. There is no prayer going on between them, but they are talking to Jesus about what is coming up in Jerusalem (see the parallel passages in Luke 9:30-31). To compare the Son of God giving a glimpse of His glory to His chosen disciples while talking with two Saints in Heaven with your praying to saints that have gone on to heaven, to me, borders on blasphemy. At the very least it is a twisting of the Scriptures to force a meaning that is not there.

 

[rwillenborg]

1. Rev 5:8 says these are 24 elders (not necessarily saints, but even if they were, which ones? I’m sure there are more than 24 saints in the Catholic Church). Furthermore, there is no indication from the Scriptures that these were prayers offered directly to them (I would say that the bowls with the prayers were given to these elders, just like their harps were given to them).
2. In Matt 17:3 Peter, James and John witness the transfiguration of Jesus, and see Him talking to Moses and Elijah. There is no prayer going on between them, but they are talking to Jesus about what is coming up in Jerusalem (see the parallel passages in Luke 9:30-31). To compare the Son of God giving a glimpse of His glory to His chosen disciples while talking with a Saints in Heaven with your praying to saints that have gone on to heaven, to me, borders on blasphemy. At the very least it is a twisting of the Scriptures to force a meaning that is not there.

For #1: Weird. In my Bible 5:8 says ‘the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, ***which are the prayers of the saints’ *** Does yours say something different then? Does yours say those aren’t the prayers of the saints? Furthermore, you are correct, there is no indication that these were offered directly to them, but who would have given them the prayers? Would God give elders HIS prayers to give BACK to Him?

For #2: Well, what I was trying to get at is that the dead aren’t really dead. They’re alive in Christ.

All of this, by the way, leads to ANOTHER question (we’ll call this one #3) I have that maybe you could answer.
When my grandmother died, I told her ALL THE TIME, and still do, how much I miss her. In looking at old pictures and poems she wrote I think ‘Grandma, I miss you and I love you’ Am I considered communing with the dead? I do believe she heard me by the way, if that makes a difference. If it’s not, if instead I said ‘Grandma, please pray for me’ would THAT be communing with the dead? What then would be the difference?
I just don’t understand why a little thing like death should keep loved ones apart from eachother.
We’ll call this next one question #4: Do protestants believe that people who have passed away can ever communicate with them? You hear people all the time say that they believe they got a sign of some sort or another from someone who has passed on. Do protestants believe this can happen?

Your answers are much appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Cachonga]

rwillenborg:

For #1: Weird. In my Bible 5:8 says ‘the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints’ Does yours say something different then? Does yours say those aren’t the prayers of the saints? Furthermore, you are correct, there is no indication that these were offered directly to them, but who would have given them the prayers? Would God give elders HIS prayers to give BACK to Him?

I apologize if you thought I said these were not the prayers of the Saints. Of course they are prayers of the Saints. What I was pointing out is that there is nothing to indicate that these prayers were made directly to them (we don’t even know who they are). Certainly God could give them the bowls of incense at the same time He gave them their harps. And your question “Would God give elders HIS prayers to give BACK to Him?” seems to ignore the fact that these same elders also wore golden crowns (undoubtedly given to them by God), and they threw them at God’s feet. Just a thought - what do you have to offer God that He didn’t give you in the first place?

rwillenborg:

For #2: Well, what I was trying to get at is that the dead aren’t really dead. They’re alive in Christ.

No dispute with me. But just exactly how loud do you have to talk for someone who has passed on to the next life in order to be heard?

rwillenborg:

All of this, by the way, leads to ANOTHER question (we’ll call this one #3) I have that maybe you could answer.
When my grandmother died, I told her ALL THE TIME, and still do, how much I miss her. In looking at old pictures and poems she wrote I think ‘Grandma, I miss you and I love you’ Am I considered communing with the dead? I do believe she heard me by the way, if that makes a difference. If it’s not, if instead I said ‘Grandma, please pray for me’ would THAT be communing with the dead? What then would be the difference?
I just don’t understand why a little thing like death should keep loved ones apart from eachother.

1. I don’t think it would be considered communing with the dead as long as you don’t expect (or claim) to get an answer from them (it’s like part of the grieving process). Asking your departed grandmother to pray for you, on the other hand, is another matter, since you are expecting something from her (not necessarily “communing” with the dead, but, again, how loud do you have to speak in order to be heard by them?).

rwillenborg:

We’ll call this next one question #4: Do protestants believe that people who have passed away can ever communicate with them? You hear people all the time say that they believe they got a sign of some sort or another from someone who has passed on. Do protestants believe this can happen?

1. I would say that would depend on the person. There are many people who call themselves Protestant that have no idea what that means (just as I’m sure the same can be said of Catholics). Maybe a better way to ask the question would be, “Do Bible-believing Protestants believe that people who have passed away can ever communicate with them?” For myself, I would answer “No!” I would add that I have no doubt that people experience “ghosts” of relatives, but I see this more as demons impersonating the loved ones (hence the warning to Israel not to deal with people who have “familiar” spirits).

Hope this helps!

 

[NHInsider]

We are all members of the one Body of Christ:

Romans 12:4-5
For as in one body we have many parts, and all the parts do not have the same function,
so we, though many, are one body in Christ 3 and individually parts of one another.

We are encouraged, indeed commanded, to pray for one another.

1 Tim. 2:1
1 First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone,

Ephesians 6:18
With all prayer and supplication, pray at every opportunity in the Spirit. To that end, be watchful with all perseverance and supplication for all the holy ones

James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.

As members of the Body we are not divided by death

Romans 8:38-39
For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, nor future things, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And those who have gone before us in faith are watching (cheering?) our “race” for the “prize”

Hebrews 12:1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us.

All this in addition to the bowls of prayers being presented in John’s vision.

This is a long way from Saul conjuring the spirit of Samuel to appear to him. So where do you find the notion that we shouldn’t/cannot ask the saints to pray with/for us?

 

[Cachonga]

NHInsider:

We are all members of the one Body of Christ:

<quoted Rom 12:4-5>

Seems to me the entire chapter is addressing the Body here on Earth (especially since Paul uses examples of different gifts given to the Body). Consider verses 6-8, “And having different gifts, according to the grace that is given us, either prophecy, to be used according to the rule of faith; Or ministry, in ministering; or he that teacheth, in doctrine; He that exhorteth, in exhorting; he that giveth, with simplicity; he that ruleth, with carefulness; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.” (DR) Which of those things applies to Saints who are asleep (Scriptures refer to Saints that have passed from this life as being “asleep”. See John 11:11-13, Acts 7:60, 13:36, 1 Cor 11:30, 15:6, etc…)? I would think these references to Saints being “asleep” would be enough reason to not pray to them (or maybe I’m a little more considerate of other people when they’re sleeping).

NHInsider:

We are encouraged, indeed commanded, to pray for one another.

<quoted 1 Tim. 2:1>

OK, so I offer supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings FOR everyone, including those who are asleep in Christ. Where does it say I pray TO those who are asleep in Christ?

Is being "watchful with all perseverance and supplication for all the holy ones " (Eph 6:18) supposed to apply to those who are asleep in Chirst? If they are with Christ in heaven, what kind of suplications can I make for them? And notice, it says FOR all the holy ones, not TO all the holy ones.

And how do you apply James 5:16? Can I confess my sins to Saint Peter? If not, why not? He’s still a member of the Body of Christ, isn’t he? He can still hear our prayers, can’t he? Why couldn’t he forgive sins in this way? And if he can forgive sins in this way, why can’t we just confess directly to the Father? On the other hand, if he can’t forgive sins (and I doubt he can even hear prayers addressed to him), then how can he be expected to answer any petitions brought to him?

NHInsider:

As members of the Body we are not divided by death

<quoted Rom 8:38-39>

I agree that nothing shall be able to seperate us from “the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord”. While I am not seperated from the love of God, I am seperated from Saints that are asleep in Christ.

NHInsider:

And those who have gone before us in faith are watching (cheering?) our “race” for the “prize”

<quoted Heb 12:1>

And if you are running a race, other than cheers of encouragement, what else can the spectators do to help you? If someone ran out on the track and gave you a cup of water, you could be disqualified and the spectator would be hauled off by security, right? When you’re running a race, how well can you communicate your need to someone in the stands (just for the sake of the arguement, let’s imagine this was a race before text messaging, twitter, IM, etc…)? And again, there is nothing in this about praying TO those who are asleep in Christ. We are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, but where does it say we can communicate with those witnesses?

NHInsider:

All this in addition to the bowls of prayers being presented in John’s vision.

This is a long way from Saul conjuring the spirit of Samuel to appear to him. So where do you find the notion that we shouldn’t/cannot ask the saints to pray with/for us?

I notice you never addressed what I said about Rev 5:8, Matt 17:3, or any of the other questions raised by rwillenborg which I have addressed. I would suggest that I have done more to prove my point than you have done to prove yours.

 

[guanophore]

I’ll be chillin with some protestants in a week or so, and I have an icon bracelet with mary on it and I know this will come up, soooo…

1. In revelation 5:8 the saints bring their prayers to the Lord in golden bowls. How do we know that these are the petitions brought to THEM by US, rather than THEIR OWN petitions? And in NT isn’t EVERY christian a saint, and not just the dead ones? So couldn’t these prayers of the saints be our own petitions to the Lord?How do we know these are the petitions of those who preceded us to heaven?

The Apostles taught that there is no separation between us. We are all members of One Body, and of one another. Those who are already perfectly united with Christ in heaven always pray in perfect conformity with His will. To the extent that we also in unity with Him, our prayers are joined with theirs.

Not sure I understand the last question. Do you think the people described in Rev. are not in heaven?

In the Scripture, the term “saint” is applied to all the baptized. We are set aside to Him. Not all that are thus set aside, however, become perfected. Those who have been perfected in heaven that God has revealed are known to us as saints in heaven. We are all called to be saints. Some have already arrived.

1. In Matt 17:3 at the transfiguration Moses and Elijah appear with Jesus at the transfiguration. Catholics say that this shows that communing with the dead is okay. A protestant would say ‘But that was Jesus. HE can do that. We said WE couldn’t.’ What should be my response?

Jesus went out of His way to make sure HIs Apostles were present at the time. If He wanted to do this privately, He could have. He probably did, many times.

Jesus also taught in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man that passing from this world does not impede communication.

It is also interesting to discuss the appearance of Samuel to Saul. Why did God allow this to happen? How is it that Samuel has a chat with Saul, and is very much awake and aware of events here on earth?

 

[guanophore]

1. Rev 5:8 says these are 24 elders (not necessarily saints, but even if they were, which ones?  I'm sure there are more than 24 saints in the Catholic Church).

How is that relevant? Clearly, they hold the prayers. Do you think that there are people in heaven that are not saints?

Furthermore, there is no indication from the Scriptures that these were prayers offered directly to them (I would say that the bowls with the prayers were given to these elders, just like their harps were given to them by God).

“Prayer” to the saints means supplication. We are asking them to join our prayers with theirs to God. Just as Paul askes in Romans that the believers join with him in prayer. Do you never ask anyone to pray for you?

1. In Matt 17:3 Peter, James and John witness the transfiguration of Jesus, and see Him talking to Moses and Elijah. There is no prayer going on between them, but they are talking to Jesus about what is coming up in Jerusalem (see the parallel passages in Luke 9:30-31).

That is all that “prayer” means in this context. It is a communication. We ask them to pray for us.

To compare the Son of God giving a glimpse of His glory to His chosen disciples while talking with two Saints in Heaven with your praying to saints that have gone on to heaven, to me, borders on blasphemy.

What did you think He meant, when He said “greater things than I do will you do, because I go to the father?” And what did He mean when He said that we have no idea the greatness of His power that He wants to reveal in us, who believe? Catholics believe that no eye has seen, nor ear heard, what He has in store for those who love Him. He was showing His disciples what they were capable of joining - communion with the saints.

At the very least it is a twisting of the Scriptures to force a meaning that is not there.

Such a statment reveals a gross ignorance of the origin of Catholic doctrine. Catholics do not derive doctrine from scripture, therefore, there is no reason to “force” any of it. The NT is Catholic, and reflects Catholic faith. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic.

 

[guanophore]

But just exactly how loud do you have to talk for someone who has passed on to the next life in order to be heard?

This is a very good question. Since they do not have actual physical “ears”, one might speculate that no verbal expression is necessary at all. How loud do you think Saul had to talk, in order for Samuel to hear him?

I don’t think it would be considered communing with the dead as long as you don’t expect (or claim) to get an answer from them (it’s like part of the grieving process). Asking your departed grandmother to pray for you, on the other hand, is another matter, since you are expecting something from her (not necessarily “communing” with the dead, but, again, how loud do you have to speak in order to be heard by them?).

I gather you do not believe Jesus, when He said that those who are in HIm are “alive forevermore”?

I gather you also did not receive His teaching that “you know neither the Scriptures, nor the Power of God, for He is not the God of the dead, but of the Living”.

“Do Bible-believing Protestants believe that people who have passed away can ever communicate with them?” For myself, I would answer “No!” I would add that I have no doubt that people experience “ghosts” of relatives, but I see this more as demons impersonating the loved ones (hence the warning to Israel not to deal with people who have “familiar” spirits).

Does this mean you think Scripture is not accurate, when it documents that it was Samuel who appeared ot Saul? You believe that what Saul thought was the spirit of Samuel is actually the spirit of a demon? How come you don’t think that Moses and Elijah were actually demons, appearing to Christ?

Hope this helps!

No, it is never helpful when someone deliberately departs from the Teaching of the Apostles, and embraces heretical doctrines.

 

[Cachonga]

guanophore:

How is that relevant? Clearly, they hold the prayers. Do you think that there are people in heaven that are not saints?

I guess it’s only relevant if you’re interested in proving from Scripture that prayer to the Saints is approved by God. In Rev 6:9-11 we see that there are the souls of those who have been martyred for the Word of God, but no mention of them offering prayers. In fact, they were told to “rest a little longer”. Of course, all this really doesn’t matter if your best arguement is “Because the Church says so!”

guanophore:

“Prayer” to the saints means supplication. We are asking them to join our prayers with theirs to God. Just as Paul askes in Romans that the believers join with him in prayer. Do you never ask anyone to pray for you?

There is a difference between asking someone to pary WITH you and to pray FOR you. To illustrate, if your best friend was gonig to your favorite restaurant, would you rather he eat WITH you or eat FOR you?

guanophore:

That is all that “prayer” means in this context. It is a communication. We ask them to pray for us.

Again, their is no Scriptural basis for asking a Saint in heaven to pray FOR us. I have not seen any evidence from anyone that would tell me this is approved by God in the Scriptures.

guanophore:

What did you think He meant, when He said “greater things than I do will you do, because I go to the father?” And what did He mean when He said that we have no idea the greatness of His power that He wants to reveal in us, who believe? Catholics believe that no eye has seen, nor ear heard, what He has in store for those who love Him. He was showing His disciples what they were capable of joining - communion with the saints.

Does doing greater things mean being able to communicate with Saints in heaven? Where does the Bible say this? As far as “no eye has seen, nor ear heard, what He has in store for those who love Him”, Paul is referring to our reward in Heaven (you know, like when we “fall asleep” in Christ). You still have not proven from Scripture that God approves prayers TO those Saints who are asleep in Christ.

guanophore:

Such a statment reveals a gross ignorance of the origin of Catholic doctrine. Catholics do not derive doctrine from scripture, therefore, there is no reason to “force” any of it. The NT is Catholic, and reflects Catholic faith. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic.

I am quite aware of Catholic doctrine. However, rwillenborg seemed to want to be able to give an answer from Scripture to some Protestant friends. If all he wanted was Catholic doctrine, I wouldn’t have bothered to get involved with this thread. I would suggest, however, that you have contradicted yourself. On the one hand, you say, “Catholics do not derive doctrine from scripture”, then you tell me that “The NT is Catholic, and reflects Catholic faith. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic.” Just a rhetorical question (since it’s not the topic of this thread), how can something that is Catholic (the NT) not be necessary to derive Catholic doctrine?

guanophore:

This is a very good question. Since they do not have actual physical “ears”, one might speculate that no verbal expression is necessary at all. How loud do you think Saul had to talk, in order for Samuel to hear him?

And what is your Scriptural proof for this? Didn’t Jesus have a physical body after His ressurection? What about Enoch and Elijah who were taken up alive into heaven? Don’t they have physical ears? When Jesus talked with Moses and Elijah, didn’t they have ears? And if Mary really was bodily assumed into heaven, wouldn’t she have physical ears?

guanophore:

I gather you do not believe Jesus, when He said that those who are in HIm are “alive forevermore”?

Of course I do. Don’t you believe the Scriptures when they say that those who have passed on are “asleep in Christ”?

guanophore:

I gather you also did not receive His teaching that “you know neither the Scriptures, nor the Power of God, for He is not the God of the dead, but of the Living”.

I would suggest that, given your previous statement (“Catholics do not derive doctrine from scripture”), that it is you who “know neither the Scriptures, nor the Power of God”. Please tell me what I said that makes you even think that I do not believe God is the God of the living?

guanophore:

Does this mean you think Scripture is not accurate, when it documents that it was Samuel who appeared ot Saul? You believe that what Saul thought was the spirit of Samuel is actually the spirit of a demon? How come you don’t think that Moses and Elijah were actually demons, appearing to Christ?

Not at all. I believe God allowed Samual to come in person (why else would the witch be so surprised?), and that He did it for His own reasons (perhaps to hilight how far King Saul had slipped from His grace). Going back to Moses and Elijah, Jesus did not “conjure” them up. He was trasnfigured (glorified?) , and they came to talk with Him. God did this for His own purpose (perhaps to reinforce to these 3 that He truly was God).

One final note - in the story of Lazarus and the rich man, this is not a parable, but a true story. We know this because Jesus uses a proper name (Lazarus). It would be similar to beginning a story “There was a certain man who had achieved great success and was well know and respected across the land, and there was a certain intern named Monica…” I think most adults would immediately know who was being talked about. Along with this, it should be remembered that the communication seen in this story is between the rich man (in hell) and Abraham (in paradise). Both of these men have already passed from this life to the next. I think it is very signifcant that Abraham doesn’t encourage the rich man with the thought that his brothers may offer sin offerings on his behalf to get him out of hell (strange, no purgatory mentioned here). And there is absolutely no indicatoin that anyone on earth is praying to anyone with Abraham.

 

[NHInsider]

I would suggest that I have done more to prove my point than you have done to prove yours.

I’m not the one trying to disprove the ancient teaching of the Church based on my personal interpretation of Scripture.

 

[Cachonga]

NHInsider:

I’m not the one trying to disprove the ancient teaching of the Church based on my personal interpretation of Scripture.

And how does this answer help me to understand where I’m misinterpreting the Scriptures cited?

 

[NHInsider]

And how does this answer help me to understand where I’m misinterpreting the Scriptures cited?

I can’t say after a year of reading your responses that you’re actually interested in reading what I might say, and I’m not here to engage in debate for the sake of debate.