Question pertaining to Gods will

[Future_Prodigy]

From my understanding God has a will for each and everyone of us. Where my quesiton comes in is from a talk i had with a preist. When i was struggling as to what to thank God for in my life (as i had just come to the faith) he told me to thnk Him for the opportunity to go to shcool, be rasied in a middle class family, etc. BUt i have a hard time with this as i see those acheiveemnts as being the hard work of my parents, immigrating to canada from ireland and ukraine, and being in the right country at the right time.

I believe God does not put us here, physcially territorially, for a specific reason but instead uses us where we are for a higher Good. I can’t see anything else. It is almost offensive to think otherwise. I can’'t think my life is more significant than a poor, hungry male in indonessia. I believe God did not Will his physicla birth to be there anymore than mine to be here. Sure he knows us personally, and knew where we would be born, but did not physcially will it himself… he allowed it and then works with it.

Is this heretical thinking?

 

[FiremanFrank]

^^^ We should always thank God for His love for us, and if He has answered a specific prayer of ours (i.e., healed/delivered us in a particular way)

Also, you are quite correct in believing that our soul is not worth any more/any less than someone else’s soul.

**All of us are precious in God’s eyes.

We know that all things work for good for those who love God,
who are called according to his purpose.* (Romans 8:28)*

 

[InLight247]

When i was struggling as to what to thank God for in my life (as i had just come to the faith) he told me to thnk Him for the opportunity to go to shcool, be rasied in a middle class family, etc. BUt i have a hard time with this as i see those acheiveemnts as being the hard work of my parents, immigrating to canada from ireland and ukraine, and being in the right country at the right time.

It is a good thing to practice being thankful. A grateful heart always brings joy and new blessings. We often take things for granted. In reality, the fact we are having this earthly life is marvelous enough to be grateful for. Think about the millions of aborted babies.

With an attentive mind, we will thank God endlessly. Keep in mind God is always in control; nothing happens without his permission. Therefore, we should give credit to God for all good things. That includes our talents, abilities, achievements, and current living environment.

If it were not blessings from God, your parents wouldn’t have the chance of immigration and be in the right place at the right time. Your parents’ achievements are the blessings from God. That’s more than enough a reason to thank and praise God, give Him all the honors and glories.

Even during hard times, we still thank God. We don’t thank God for the problem itself, but we thank Him for being with us, giving us strength, and helping us walk through the problem. We thank God for strengthening us with the test.

Our God is a great loving God. He deserves our perpetual thanks and praises.

 

[Della]

From my understanding God has a will for each and everyone of us. Where my quesiton comes in is from a talk i had with a preist. When i was struggling as to what to thank God for in my life (as i had just come to the faith) he told me to thnk Him for the opportunity to go to shcool, be rasied in a middle class family, etc. BUt i have a hard time with this as i see those acheiveemnts as being the hard work of my parents, immigrating to canada from ireland and ukraine, and being in the right country at the right time.

I believe God does not put us here, physcially territorially, for a specific reason but instead uses us where we are for a higher Good. I can’t see anything else. It is almost offensive to think otherwise. I can’'t think my life is more significant than a poor, hungry male in indonessia. I believe God did not Will his physicla birth to be there anymore than mine to be here. Sure he knows us personally, and knew where we would be born, but did not physcially will it himself… he allowed it and then works with it.

Is this heretical thinking?

Not heretical at all. God wills that we have free will to act as we please. That means we can go where we wish, marry who we want, take employment wherever we think best, etc.

Having said that, God also has a vocation for each of us and a personal will for each of us. We know what that is by cooperating in prayer with him and taking the direction of the Holy Spirit. What we want is to be in line with God’s will in all things, even though we have the license to do otherwise (but usually to our spiritual detriment).

Being poor or rich doesn’t matter, as you cited. What matters is being the person God wants us to be–holy, virtuous, and striving to be perfected in love. Anyone in any circumstance can do that with the help of God’s grace in our lives and especially with the graces of the Sacraments.

 

[blessedstar]

Future Prodigy, that’s a grand name, a name that speaks of hope, I like it and I like it because it looks to the potential.

That is what God’s will is for us, that we live to the greatest potential we can in His Love. Living to the greatest potential we can involves our free will and embracing God’s grace and has nothing to do with how rich or poor we are.

The word potential suggests a journey and of course we are on a journey we are travelling from this life to the next and what we do here has eternal consequences and because we are all frail and make mistakes, commit sins and generally mess up God gave us every possibility of successfully completing that journey through grace by the way of His Cross which involves our repentance, not just once but repentance many times.

The question you are really asking is very deep. You are really wondering why things are the way there are, why there are the very poor and why there are the very rich and to what depth does God have a say in this. I often wonder why when God became Incarnate He didn’t choose a palace rather than that awful wet and drafty not to mention stinking and dirty stable. Not being any theologian I can only tell you what I think. I think that the trappings of material comfort in this world can lead to a ‘self’ reliance and worst of all can lead to a total turning away from God. It can also lead to a hardness of heart toward others less fortunate than ourselves.

I often wonder why Jesus so loved the poor. Perhaps it is because those who are poor and believe in Him are far less distracted from Him than those who appear to possess everything.

I think the living up to our potential is not to live up to this world’s expectations of what success is measured by but to live up to being that good and decent follower of Jesus.

I believe if opportunities come our way they do so by the grace of God and if we are able to make a good living then we are as good stewards to sow that back into the ground for the help of others, by that I mean, look after those immediately around us, our family and friends and make sure they are well cared for, clothed, fed, loved etc and then to use some to help those in our wider community and also around the world.

Free will depends on the choices we have before us or the opportunities presented to us, so the measure of the good use of free will is not in the material gain, but the good that our free will brings about. A man can use his free will for evil as much if he is poor as he can if he is rich and then the extent of the action must be measured, but it is not for us to do the measuring or judging that is God’s work.

There will always be the rich and the poor, you know that, but what is a great injustice is that the rich are so very rich and the poor are dying of poverty and it is not enough to give out of mere social conscience, but whatever is given must be given first and foremost for love of God, that is to recognise Jesus in each person.

I think that you should keep asking yourself the questions you are because these are the kind of questions that causes faith to grow and spirituality to deepen. If you keep asking these questions you will find in your own heart God’s vocation for you in life. One day you will ask yourself a questiona nd pray about it and that will be the pivotal question that leads you along the path that Jesus has planned especially for you.

Being thankful is a relative thing, we each have a great deal to be thankful for but if we have more and know we have more than others then we do have more to be thankful to God for.

Stay thoughtful, stay thankful to God for everything and keep praying.

Thank you for your good question

 

[Future_Prodigy]

Thank you for that response. That was very insightful. I have a question to ask back but need to run out, as it is my birthday today and we’re heading out for diner with the family. Thank you again though, something i have to think about and meditate on.

 

[blessedstar]

Happy Birthday!

I hope you enjoyed your evening out with your family.

 

[momof8]

Not heretical at all. God wills that we have free will to act as we please. That means we can go where we wish, marry who we want, take employment wherever we think best, etc.

Having said that, God also has a vocation for each of us and a personal will for each of us. We know what that is by cooperating in prayer with him and taking the direction of the Holy Spirit. What we want is to be in line with God’s will in all things, even though we have the license to do otherwise (but usually to our spiritual detriment).

Being poor or rich doesn’t matter, as you cited. What matters is being the person God wants us to be–holy, virtuous, and striving to be perfected in love. Anyone in any circumstance can do that with the help of God’s grace in our lives and especially with the graces of the Sacraments.

I am glad this question was brought up, too, because I really struggle with it. If God has a perfect Will for us and we do mess things up, then what happens is not really His will, it would seem. But then, every person born under the wrong circumstances of any kind would be born not under God’s perfect will, and yet anyone would say “You are here on this earth because God wants you here.” Even though… originally… He didn’t? It all gets very confusing to me. And it certainly seems to me that I am here because it was my parent’s will to get married, and even if they consulted God about it, I would bet that most people don’t consult Him, they consult themselves. And with six billion people on the world mostly consulting themselves, it would seem that God’s will is being thwarted on a very regular basis.

One of the closest things to an explanation for me is, God’s will is always being done because He wills for us to have a free will, so our choices, for better or for worse, are not strictly outside of His will. Also, I think God’s will, as He told Job, is so far above us that even if He wanted to explain it to us, we wouldn’t understand, which causes so many attempted explanations to fall short. So there is a big element of accepting that God is too big for us to grasp this issue.

As far as being thankful, I know what the OP means - if I should be thankful for x or y, what about people who don’t have x or y? The truth is, we all have something to be thankful for, no, many things to be thankful for, from the gift of life, to the beauty of the earth, to small graces throughout the day, and anyone who practices gratitude for these things is healthier for it, maybe especially someone who is in the worst circumstances.

I have also heard that we should actually thank God for our problems, not because we want to keep them as such, but to the extent that they are crosses and crosses are in fact gifts… which is another great mystery…

 

[Future_Prodigy]

I’ve read this post a couple times and have pulled away snippits from both of your posts but i still find the problem unsettling.

“If God has a perfect Will for us and we do mess things up, then what happens is not really His will, it would seem. But then, every person born under the wrong circumstances of any kind would be born not under God’s perfect will, and yet anyone would say “You are here on this earth because God wants you here.” Even though… originally… He didn’t?”

I often think about that and this is why i don’t believe God wills us, necessarily, to be born where we are but uses us instead where we were born.

I for instance come from a family of unbelievers but have a lot of material comfort. My dads a engineer and my mother is a teacher and I was raised in a decent sized house with food always on the table. My parents would not say it was Gods grace that delivered these thigns but rather their hard work, being decesdants of irish immigrants, thus placing them in a good situation at the right time when they were born, etc.

 

[momof8]

I’ve read this post a couple times and have pulled away snippits from both of your posts but i still find the problem unsettling.

“If God has a perfect Will for us and we do mess things up, then what happens is not really His will, it would seem. But then, every person born under the wrong circumstances of any kind would be born not under God’s perfect will, and yet anyone would say “You are here on this earth because God wants you here.” Even though… originally… He didn’t?”

I often think about that and this is why i don’t believe God wills us, necessarily, to be born where we are but uses us instead where we were born.

I for instance come from a family of unbelievers but have a lot of material comfort. My dads a engineer and my mother is a teacher and I was raised in a decent sized house with food always on the table. My parents would not say it was Gods grace that delivered these thigns but rather their hard work, being decesdants of irish immigrants, thus placing them in a good situation at the right time when they were born, etc.

I don’t know… I would have to think about it more. It may just come down to a thing we can’t understand, but it bothers me enough, too, that I think it is good to try to think it through.

As far as your parents… of course they had to work hard, but could we truly stand before God and say “This is because of what I did, You had nothing to do with it?” On the other hand, if they failed because they did not work hard, that would not be God’s fault. However, one’s own work does not guarantee success and comfort by any means. Other things outside their control certainly had a great impact on the life your parents have been able to lead. In humility, we have to say that in doing our work, we have only been, what does Jesus say, poor servants who have done what was expected of us so we should not think so very highly of what we’ve done, and we need to express gratitude for the things outside of our control that contributed to our success or kept us from harm. (Jesus also tells us that we may one day hear “Well done, good and faithful servant.” I guess we should just know that God is the one to decide whether we have been so good and faithful.)

I was thinking recently that God kind of gets credit when things go well (thank you for hearing and answering our prayer) but when things don’t go well, it is because of human failure, our own or someone else’s. Please understand that I am not trying to show disrespect to God, only stating what has occurred to me. I don’t think I would want to be someone who takes all the credit for the good and doesn’t thank God ever. And besides, in spending day after day not thanking God or having any relationship with him, gosh, all the lost graces and the lost friendship with Him.

Another thought in terms of God’s will, is one I’ve read that points out that we are all having a part in the working out of His will. Either we will contribute as His friends or as His tools, in that if we will not work with Him, our actions will still be used by Him to become a piece in “all things working together for good”.

 

[guanophore]

I’ve read this post a couple times and have pulled away snippits from both of your posts but i still find the problem unsettling.

“If God has a perfect Will for us and we do mess things up, then what happens is not really His will, it would seem. But then, every person born under the wrong circumstances of any kind would be born not under God’s perfect will, and yet anyone would say “You are here on this earth because God wants you here.” Even though… originally… He didn’t?”.

No, it seems clear that God can make even crooked paths come out straight. There are also levels of God’s will: Rom 12:2
2 Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." God may accept, as less than perfect, an effort in the right direction.

I often think about that and this is why i don’t believe God wills us, necessarily, to be born where we are but uses us instead where we were born.

I think you are wrong on this point, Future Prodigy. Jesus said that God has numbered even the hairs on our head. He put us exactly where we need to be to become the persons He intends. I think this does happen as you state, when we bloom where we are planted

I

for instance come from a family of unbelievers but have a lot of material comfort. My dads a engineer and my mother is a teacher and I was raised in a decent sized house with food always on the table. My parents would not say it was Gods grace that delivered these thigns but rather their hard work, being decesdants of irish immigrants, thus placing them in a good situation at the right time when they were born, etc.

I am sorry that your parents do not recognize the providence of God, and that He has made the rain to fall upon all. Let me ask you this. Why did your parents work so hard? I will assume they wanted to better the state of their offspring. Better according to what standard? Why be better? what is “better”? Why did their ancestors immigrate from Ireland? I bet you will find the hand of God in this more than they are aware!\

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I’ve read this post a couple times and have pulled away snippits from both of your posts but i still find the problem unsettling.

“If God has a perfect Will for us and we do mess things up, then what happens is not really His will, it would seem. But then, every person born under the wrong circumstances of any kind would be born not under God’s perfect will, and yet anyone would say “You are here on this earth because God wants you here.” Even though… originally… He didn’t?”

I often think about that and this is why i don’t believe God wills us, necessarily, to be born where we are but uses us instead where we were born.

I for instance come from a family of unbelievers but have a lot of material comfort. My dads a engineer and my mother is a teacher and I was raised in a decent sized house with food always on the table. My parents would not say it was Gods grace that delivered these things but rather their hard work, being decesdants of irish immigrants, thus placing them in a good situation at the right time when they were born, etc.

Don’t confuse God’s will with God’s desire. God desires our love and devotion, but he does not force it. God also, does not
predestine some for salvation and others for damnation, this was the error of Calvin.

God will is that he allows life to unfold as it will. How we respond to that, is how we follow God’s will.

We can turn to God and ask for his intervention, which He sometimes gives, but in all, his perfect nature will allow for the natural flow to take place and from that we learn and grow.

It takes some one with a better understanding of philosophy that what I have to explain it better.

So at this point, I’ll wait for wiser minds than mind to respond.

Jim

 

[Future_Prodigy]

“God will is that he allows life to unfold as it will. How we respond to that, is how we follow God’s will.”

I like that point Jim, that falls in line with my thinking. It makes a lot more sense to me than say we were put here in this exact place for an exact reason.

“I was thinking recently that God kind of gets credit when things go well (thank you for hearing and answering our prayer) but when things don’t go well, it is because of human failure, our own or someone else’s.”
momof8 that is EXACTLY what i think sometimes. Then it draws the quesiton of when is its God’s graces vs your own work. I find it hard to give thanks for blessings sometimes as I feel they were not sent from above but rather from our own doing. I don’t wan tto thank God for having a house over my head when millions of others dont. I don’t know this is my verbal outloud rant

 

[dranzal]

There is nothing that happens that is not part of God’s Divine Plan. God’s will was accomplished through Mary and Judas. One was a humble servant, the other a tool. It is, of course, far better to be the servant than the tool. Either way, God’s will will be done.

Our parents’ hard work and our subsequent lives do not eliminate God’s will from the equation. You can, indeed, should, thank God for the blessings in your life. Even thank Him for the ability to see His hand in your parent’s hard work that got you where you are. Thank Him for using you as an instrument of His grace for others. Thank Him even for your hardships, as they will draw you ever closer to Him.

 

[dranzal]

Again, you say you don’t want to thank Him for the roof over your head when others do not have roofs. Every good thing we have is from Him. Those without a roof are participating in redemptive suffering. It is not your cross, but theirs. It is not for us to choose their cross. God alone knows how each person’s place will work together for the good of themselves and everyone.

I have a cross you likely don’t share. Does that mean you should not offer deep gratitude that you don’t share it? If I was “roofless” I would tell you to thank your lucky stars, your parents and God’s goodness. Then, I would humbly ask your help. Thank Him. In all things, thank Him. Humbly thank Him.

 

[Future_Prodigy]

dranzal - i know what you are saying but i just find it really hard to thank Him when my parents would take offence for me thanking Him instead of their self sacrifice and hard work. It is like if something goes right its God’s doing not our own but then when its wrong it is our sole doing.

 

[Future_Prodigy]

Don’t get me wrong though, i do have things to be thankful for… liek today for an example, whereby in rosary i read the 3rd sorrowful mystery and it was my first time reading out loud in a group (which doesnt seem like a major thing but i have a huge fear of public speaking and i stutter… neither of which i did tongiht, Praise God!). I have little things to be thankful for but as said above where do we draw the line btw assigning credit to were credit is due! Is it Gods handywork or our own!?

 

[chevalier]

Free will is one thing, but you can never know if there hasn’t been any supernatural intervention in your life. Think of all the slim chances or the things that have gone surprisingly smoothly, also those victories against the odds. In some of that, there might have been a guiding hand. Even something as seemingly little as finding motiviation to study a generation or five up your family line might have been God’s gift. I think it’s always a good idea to be grateful for what you have. Also, talents and the capacity to learn as well as the dedication to work hard, that’s also a gift from God. Some people double the talents, some triple, some make a dozen out of two, but there’s always God in the root of it all.

 

[momof8]

“God will is that he allows life to unfold as it will. How we respond to that, is how we follow God’s will.”

I like that point Jim, that falls in line with my thinking. It makes a lot more sense to me than say we were put here in this exact place for an exact reason.

“I was thinking recently that God kind of gets credit when things go well (thank you for hearing and answering our prayer) but when things don’t go well, it is because of human failure, our own or someone else’s.”
momof8 that is EXACTLY what i think sometimes. Then it draws the quesiton of when is its God’s graces vs your own work. I find it hard to give thanks for blessings sometimes as I feel they were not sent from above but rather from our own doing. I don’t wan tto thank God for having a house over my head when millions of others dont. I don’t know this is my verbal outloud rant

I love that part from Jim R, too. That helps me to picture God lovingly watching over what is happening to us, as He watches everything unfold. I’d say He at times intervenes, but in a way He is intervening the whole time.

What I said about God getting the credit for things going well, I did have more thoughts on that. If could compare it to my own children in this way: They make a mess. If I clean it up, then I am responsible for the good of the cleanliness. If they make the mess again and again, and I clean it up, then each time I am responsible for the good even though I am not responsible for the mess. And if I do not clean it up, I am still not responsible for the mess, although they may try to get away with blaming me. And to apply that also to God, if He does clean up by intervening for us, or if He doesn’t, whichever response He has is always in our best interest. He is also able to handle the effects of other people’s sins on our lives so that the ultimate result is good for us.