Question Re: Loaves & Fishes

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Today at mass, the deacon informed the congregation that there was no “magic” at this event conveyed in the “story of the gospel”, that “the apostles and people simply shared out of their abundance and put in the basket what they had to share, which is what Jesus is calling us all to do.”

Where does this tripe come from?

Someone told me today that it comes from the “Jesus Seminar”…I’ll google that later, but can you point me to resources that will provide information on this seemingly well known error?

TIA,

Tom
 
Lowest pit of Hell, but there is no google for that (though plenty of websites are connected to it). Jesus Seminar is the best (or worst) place to start.
 
Just kidding! You might have been proud of me for telling the deacon, well within earshot of the priest standing some 40 feet away, that he was “totally unworthy of his stole!” I asked him if he was Catholic and was he aware that this was a CATHOLIC church??

At that point he asked if we couldn’t discuss this in private as twenty or thirty people were aghast at a parishiner skewering the deacon.

I really do need some solid links to orthodoxy weighing in on such mucus as this. If you come across something that might help, I’d appreciate it.
 
Tell the Deacon that anything he prefers to be discussed in private, he should not preach from the pulpit.

Tell it like it is.
 
You don’t need any books or tracts on this one. Just read the scripture passages and you and the deacon will have the answer staring you in the face. This is clearly a miraculous event, and nothing in the passages would lead anyone to think otherwise.

Years ago I heard the same interpretation in a sermon but the pastor presented it more as a possiblity than anything else. In his opinion the sharing of the people’s own food would have also been a miracle. The problem has to do with a tendency among academia to de-mythologize the bible and to try to explain miracles away with earthly alternatives. It’s the secular invading the spiritual.
 
Doesn’t it say somewhere that if your brother messes up then you should go and talk quietly to him and point out his error. Then if he doesn’t take notice take a few friends - THEN shout out to all the church?

I agree your deacon was wrong, but I also think that the hand of gentleness should be first approach - particularly to those who have made such a sacrifice and a stand to dedicate their lives to God.

We’re all just children and sometimes we think like them - we should also be corrected like them.

Another thought: let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I doubt your own theology is perfect.
 
I am a Lector at my parish and we use the Workbook for Lectors and Gospel Readers, by Aelred R. Rosser, published by Liturgy Training Publications, (a major player in liturgy publications) Chicago, IL. It has all of the Sunday and Holy Day readings for the current liturgical year. Along with the readings there are notes and short commentaries on the readings.

One of the notes for today’s Gospel reading is this:
“Some say the real miracle here is that Jesus, by example, got the people to share what they had with them – and to discover that, despite their selfish fears, there was plenty for everyone.”

I was surprised when I read this this morning. “Some say…” , well I say that this is misleading at best, hetrodox at worst.

So this might be where the Deacon got this. In any case, a letter of complaint to LTP is in order.
 
“If anyone says that all miracles are impossible, and that therefore all reports of them, even those contained in Sacred Scripture, are to be set aside as fables or myths; or that miracles can never be known with certainty, nor can the divine origin of the Christian religion be proved from them: let him be anathema.”

Canon #4 of
Canons on Faith
from
First Vatican Council
ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/V1.HTM#5
 
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rougeux:
Today at mass, the deacon informed the congregation that there was no “magic” at this event conveyed in the “story of the gospel”, that “the apostles and people simply shared out of their abundance and put in the basket what they had to share, which is what Jesus is calling us all to do.”
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Where does this tripe come from?
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/QUOTE]

Obviously not from the actual text, since it is nowhere to be found or even implied there. In fact it completely contardicts the text which says teh crowd ate from what was “set before the crowd” i.e. the five loaves and two fishes that Jesus had blessed. It does not say that after the blessing they all dug into their packs and had so much that they gave the Apostles their twelve baskets of left overs. Perhaps you can ask the Deacon if it was written in invisible ink that he could see only with his special glasses.

Every time this reading come up in my parish I am afraid I will hear this interpretation. Thank God, so far I have been spared.
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We had a guest homilist (a missionary) give this “interpretation” a few years ago. I almost fell out of the pew.

What is the correct response? I’m inclined to jump up and shout some corrective, but I can’t imagine that that would be useful or proper.
 
Sounds like an idea for a whole new thread. My pastor yesterday waffled on whether missing Sunday mass is wrong. I never know what the proper way to approach these things is.
 
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rougeux:
Just kidding! You might have been proud of me for telling the deacon, well within earshot of the priest standing some 40 feet away, that he was “totally unworthy of his stole!” I asked him if he was Catholic and was he aware that this was a CATHOLIC church??

At that point he asked if we couldn’t discuss this in private as twenty or thirty people were aghast at a parishiner skewering the deacon.

I really do need some solid links to orthodoxy weighing in on such mucus as this. If you come across something that might help, I’d appreciate it.
Click to expand...
:clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
 
]*We had a guest homilist (a missionary) give this “interpretation” a few years ago. I almost fell out of the pew. *

What is the correct response? I’m inclined to jump up and shout some corrective, but I can’t imagine that that would be useful or proper

Next time you have the opportunity, jump-up and object. You are likely to get a standing ovation in addition to several decades off from time in Purgatory.

If Orthodox Catholic men started acted like men, we’d hear fewer novelties and heresies from the pulpit.
 
Our priest remarked that someone theologian in his seminary (bad one I guess) had interpreted it as this miracle of charity business. I was listening to hear his rebuttal, but there never was one! Sometimes it is even worse when people present something as someone else’s theory, but ever correct it when it’s erroneous.
 
A priest teaching a Bible Study at our Catholic school (to teachers, RE’s, etc.) gave this same speech about the people sharing the food they had. If this is so, Jesus was simply a motivational speaker, not God. I heard Fr. Benedict Groeschel state that if you heard this rendition to get up and walk right out of church! (I have not taken another Bible class from this priest, although many, unfortunately, still do and think he’s an expert.)
 
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rougeux:
Today at mass, the deacon informed the congregation that there was no “magic” at this event conveyed in the “story of the gospel”, that “the apostles and people simply shared out of their abundance and put in the basket what they had to share, which is what Jesus is calling us all to do.”

Where does this tripe come from?

Someone told me today that it comes from the “Jesus Seminar”…I’ll google that later, but can you point me to resources that will provide information on this seemingly well known error?

TIA,

Tom
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I’ve heard this at numerous Lifeteen sponsored events. It caught me off guard…because it was an outrageous claim.
 
My priest started off this Sundays homily talking about going to the moon, and all the other things in history that people have said is impossible.
He then said that the disciples said it was impossible to feed 5000 men with 2 fish and 5 loaves of bread.
But Jesus told them they could.
My priest said nothing about it being a miracle or not.
To me he was saying it was the same as man on the moon. Not a miracle. Maybe I just interpreted him wrong.
I think he should have made it definitely clear though that the feeding of the 5000 was a miracle, and man on the moon was pure persistance, research, and trials.

Love Kellie
 
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BrianDay:
I am a Lector at my parish and we use the Workbook for Lectors and Gospel Readers, by Aelred R. Rosser, published by Liturgy Training Publications, (a major player in liturgy publications) Chicago, IL. It has all of the Sunday and Holy Day readings for the current liturgical year. Along with the readings there are notes and short commentaries on the readings.

One of the notes for today’s Gospel reading is this:
“Some say the real miracle here is that Jesus, by example, got the people to share what they had with them – and to discover that, despite their selfish fears, there was plenty for everyone.”

I was surprised when I read this this morning. “Some say…” , well I say that this is misleading at best, hetrodox at worst.

So this might be where the Deacon got this. In any case, a letter of complaint to LTP is in order.
Click to expand...
FYI…

LTP has been completely overhauled the last three years. They have weeded out many of the problems and are working on newer more orthodox texts. You should still write them a letter to let them know that this passage is in this book.
 
“the apostles and people simply shared out of their abundance and put in the basket what they had to share, which is what Jesus is calling us all to do.”

I was once told that the purpose of this miracle was one way Jesus showed He had the power to increase the quantity of what was needed to feed the people without changing the appearance or adding anything to what was there…This miracle was after the Cana miracle - where He changed the substance of the water into wine without changing the appearance or quantity…Together they proved He had the power to give us the Eucharist where He changes both the substance of the bread and wine into His Body and Blood without changing the appearance using only the bread and wine and enough for all who desire to be fed…He had the power to change both the quality and quantity of a substance.
This makes more sense to me than the reason given in the original post.
 
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wilhelmus7:
Doesn’t it say somewhere that if your brother messes up then you should go and talk quietly to him and point out his error. Then if he doesn’t take notice take a few friends - THEN shout out to all the church?

I agree your deacon was wrong, but I also think that the hand of gentleness should be first approach - particularly to those who have made such a sacrifice and a stand to dedicate their lives to God.

We’re all just children and sometimes we think like them - we should also be corrected like them.

Another thought: let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I doubt your own theology is perfect.
Click to expand...
I respectfully disagree. The Deacon’s words were harmful to the entire congregation. No one should have left that church without hearing your challenge to him to speak the truth. Think of the people who were too timid to say anything themselves, and left Mass feeling empty and hurt. Think about those that are poorly catechized (sic?) who may have spread this “new theology”. This Deacon owes the entire parish an apology for spreading tales that attempt to demystify and humanize our Lord.

You did well to speak up. If only more of us had the guts.
:clapping:
 
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