Question re NFP

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All this talk about the couple “discerning” whether their particular justification is serious or not seems somewhat flimsy. Does anyone agree with me on this?
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Thanks for quoting me, but I don’t think it is filmsy because there is the completely non-flimsy aspect which is the objective wrongness of using ABC. If one can accept that and understand why it is so forces a deep reflection on what the purpose of marriage is.
 
Idranoel said:
I am sorry if you find anything i’ve said insulting. Of course, I have not intended to insult anyone and if I have, I apologize. However, I feel there is a strong likelihood that there are couples out there, thinking that they are following Catholic teaching on NFP, and discerning that they are not called to have another child, but the real reason is that they are satisfied with their lifestyle and don’t want to have the added expense (in terms of time and money) of another child. Clearly, many couples COULD handle another child but choose not to have any more children, for the time being or at all and use NFP to achieve this goal. It seems to be, that these couples are sinning. This position would be supported by those that would give as an example for justification for resorting to NFP the heart condition that would be aggrevated by a pregnancy. THAT’S serious. The fact that you feel stretched thin may seem serious to you at the time, but is it REALLY serious enough to justify consciously striving to avoid pregnancy?

Bottom line, don’t you think it’s possible (if not probable) that many of the couples using NFP are using it without sufficient justification?

Dan
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It is possible, but maybe not for the reasons you cite. You have referred to “being stretched too thin” as not legitimate. I’m going to suggest that you haven’t experienced “stretched too thin” or at least not long term. I know families who only have a couple of children and struggle everyday, financially, emotionally, etc. I happen to be privy to details about some families and I could see having a child pushing one or the other of the parents over the edge. From outside appearances things look fine, but they are not. They are not drama queens or otherwise air dirty laundry so unless one have the knowledge I have, one might make certain assumptions.

If a couple discerns wrongly about having children (or if we discern wrongly about anything) they are not sinning. The couple may not experience a particular blessing, joy or grace they might have if they had done otherwise.
If a person who would have a vocation to the religious life or married life but choses the opposite they haven’t sinned but they will not have the same joy or grace.

You say:
Clearly, many couples COULD handle another child but choose not to have any more children, for the time being or at all and use NFP to achieve this goal. It seems to be, that these couples are sinning.
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The less they know about NFP, church teaching , the less likely they are sinning. But if, as you suggest,
they are satisfied with their lifestyle and don’t want to have the added expense (in terms of time and money) of another child.
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I will agree the could be sinning, but I don’t know. But this is very different than what you were suggesting to LittleDeb upthread, that not having relations everytime a couple is fertile as thwarting God’s will. I think you are mushing a few things together that need to be considered separatly. That’s why I’m unwilling to to embrace this theory as a whole and say that it is church teaching because it’s not. And there are a lot of people who explain church teaching better than I.
 
I think it’s also important not to make judgment on families with just 2 or 3 children because a person might not know whether that couple is very sad to only have 2 or 3 children (i.e., miscarriages, onset of infertility, etc.)

Personally, I just always think it’s best to mind one’s own family’s business when it comes to planning/accepting children because people outside the couple/family don’t know the circumstances.
 
Michelle in KC summed up in a few words what I was trying to say in vast posts.

When we are more concerned with other’s sins we have a tendancy to become less concerned with our own. If I’m being confronted with me own faults and failings and not feeling good about that I might start searching out where others are apparently not doing so well either. It makes me feel better. Falsely. And temporarily.

Idranoel, I might be more persuaded to your position (if it were Catholic teaching) if perhaps you approached it with the positive side. There is great beauty in the Church’s teaching in sexuality. I think the truth of it is very powerful and can be persuasive. But I don’t think even you are persuaded by that. I feel as though you were approaching this legalistically. Let’s say you were right. But would be right all by yourself. Legalism is a tough way to evangelize.

I’ve disagreed with you rather adamantly but please don’t make the mistake of thinking I don’t like you or whatever. I wanted to say I believe that your motivation is for people to do God’s will and ultimately go to Heaven. I also believe we all take rather different paths.
 
I certainly appreciate all of your comments (I’m happy to be getting so many) and I am definitely learning so KEEP IT COMING. I guess the one thing that I am stuck on is my perception (maybe I’m wrong) that when a couple practicing NFP decides to refrain from the marital act because the wife is fertile, they are thwarting God’s plan. They could engage in the marital act–maybe they would become pregnant, maybe not, but that would be up to God. By refraining, they are effectively taking the possiblity of pregnancy out of God’s hands, aren’t they. The couple’s intent is clearly to AVOID a pregnancy. I am not saying that couples have to TRY to get pregnant as often as possible, of course. That would be silly (and exhausting). It just seems to me that when a couple practicing NFP refrains from the marital act, they are not being OPEN to children. What do you all think?

Thanks again,

Dan
 
Idranoel said:
I guess the one thing that I am stuck on is my perception (maybe I’m wrong) that when a couple practicing NFP decides to refrain from the marital act because the wife is fertile, they are thwarting God’s plan. They could engage in the marital act–maybe they would become pregnant, maybe not, but that would be up to God. By refraining, they are effectively taking the possiblity of pregnancy out of God’s hands, aren’t they.
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Good question! Is a couple required by God to have relations at any specific time of the month? Of course not. Are they required by God to have relations at every possible opportunity? (OK, husbands, you know what I mean 😉

With NFP a couple can choose to abstain. They are abstaining from pleasure and the possibility of a child. But they are not thwarting anything because nothing has taken place. With contraceptives, they are engaging in an act, enjoying the pleasure, but preventing natural consequences. —KCT
 
Idranoel said:
Bottom line, don’t you think it’s possible (if not probable) that many of the couples using NFP are using it without sufficient justification?
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I think it’s possible that NFP can be used without sufficient justification, and I think the op identifies a part of the Church teachings about conjugal life that is often overlooked.

During the time of the Great Forum Crash, I began reading a book entitled Marriage A Path to Sanctity by Javier Abad and Eugenio Fenoy. I’m almost finished and it’s wonderful. It speaks well of the desire for large families. “*Children are, in fact, a blessing of the Lord. When for no serious and objective reason, spouses do not with to have children–many children–it is a sign that they have lost the strong natural instinct of perpetuating themselves: they have become denaturalizes as it were and have allowed selfishness to take such deep root in them that it has drowned out the voice of the noble inlination. It is true that, many times, spouses will have to sacrifice their desire of having many children because of a real inability to feed, educate and bring up a large family. A costly sacrifice no doubt, but one that is well made provided it is inspired by the demands of responsible parenthood and lived in accordance with the norms of chastity.” *

Notice that language: chidren are blessings we should desire. Sometimes parents can’t have all the children they desire because of some limitations. In those circumstances, with the norms of chastity, it is a sacrifice for the parents not to have more children. People who use NFP thinking the only sacrifice required is not having sexual intimacy with their spouse, miss the big picture that children are blessings.
 
Idranoel said:
I certainly appreciate all of your comments (I’m happy to be getting so many) and I am definitely learning so KEEP IT COMING. I guess the one thing that I am stuck on is my perception (maybe I’m wrong) that when a couple practicing NFP decides to refrain from the marital act because the wife is fertile, they are thwarting God’s plan. They could engage in the marital act–maybe they would become pregnant, maybe not, but that would be up to God. By refraining, they are effectively taking the possiblity of pregnancy out of God’s hands, aren’t they. The couple’s intent is clearly to AVOID a pregnancy. I am not saying that couples have to TRY to get pregnant as often as possible, of course. That would be silly (and exhausting). It just seems to me that when a couple practicing NFP refrains from the marital act, they are not being OPEN to children. What do you all think?

Thanks again,

Dan
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NFP is very effective in determining a womans fertile time and therefore having relations has a very good chance of resulting in pregnancy.

It’s like the illicit reverse of this situation. Couples having sex outside of marriage freak out when a pregnancy results. Hello! Sex gets people pregnant. Most likely they don’t understand this whole fertility thing that well and left it up to chance (not God). Outcome is the same - sex during fertile times is likely to result in pregnancy.

Now you said that you didn’t think couples have to try to get pregnant “as often as possible” but having sex with every fertile time is pretty much the same thing. It leaves it up to God but takes “responcibility” out of the couples hands.
 
Michelle_in_KC said:
I think it’s also important not to make judgment on families with just 2 or 3 children because a person might not know whether that couple is very sad to only have 2 or 3 children (i.e., miscarriages, onset of infertility, etc.)

Personally, I just always think it’s best to mind one’s own family’s business when it comes to planning/accepting children because people outside the couple/family don’t know the circumstances.
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:amen:

Or no children, like my husband and me. I’m sure that from the outside we look like either a contracepting or selfish-NFP using couple, as we are well off, I’m a full-time student, we’ve been married three years, and have no kids. Truth of the matter is, we don’t even use NFP and are attempting to resign ourselves to infertility after having our hearts broken. My point? Be careful before you start judging based on appearances, and mind your own business.
 
Idranoel said:
I guess the one thing that I am stuck on is my perception (maybe I’m wrong) that when a couple practicing NFP decides to refrain from the marital act because the wife is fertile, they are thwarting God’s plan.
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You are assuming that at every fertile moment God’s “plan” is for them to conceive-- “if it’s his will, I’ll won’t get pregnant”. That is along the vein of “tempting God”, which we should not do.

God does not directly intervene to achieve or avoid a pregnancy except in a very few instances-- for example Sarah, John the Baptist, Jesus, etc-- he allows the natural process of conception to occur or not via biological mechanisms.

If you have sex knowing you are fertile when you do not believe you can handle/accept a child at that time, then I would say you are going against God’s will. When you prayerfully discern, you can be confident that your will and God’s will are in harmony at that time.
Idranoel said:
They could engage in the marital act–maybe they would become pregnant, maybe not, but that would be up to God.
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Only if you wrongly assume that God directly intervenes in the natural process of conception, which is presumptuous, I would say. If you go along this line of reasoning, then it’s “God’s will” when someone miscarries, is infertile, gets pregnant when they are a crack addict, gets hit by a bus, etc. Be careful here, that is not how God works.

God gives us both intellect and free will.
Idranoel said:
By refraining, they are effectively taking the possiblity of pregnancy out of God’s hands, aren’t they.
The couple’s intent is clearly to AVOID a pregnancy.
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Of course their intent is to avoid pregnancy. No one has stated this is wrong, nor does the church teach that it is wrong to do so.
Idranoel said:
I am not saying that couples have to TRY to get pregnant as often as possible, of course. That would be silly (and exhausting). It just seems to me that when a couple practicing NFP refrains from the marital act, they are not being OPEN to children. What do you all think?
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Each marital act must be open to procreation, not “the couple” as you have stated. I’m open to children right now sitting here typing, even though I’m not engaging in an act that can procreate at the moment. Each act of intercourse my husband and I engage in is properly ordered to procreation because we never alter that act in any way.
 
Wow! There have been some awesome posts on this. 👍 Many people have already addressed the questions raised in response to my previous post. Great job to everyone BTW.

I think a look from the other side of the issue might help the OP’s understanding. You see, some of us who use NFP have marginal fertility. For us, abstaining during possible fertility is a real leap of faith. If God is not calling us to conceive right now, then we must trust His divine wisdom. My fertility returned 7 months post-partum. Our son was having severe allergies and not nursing nearly enough to maintain my hormone levels at infertile. He was in and out of the hospital during that first year and a half and we had large medical bills over what insurance paid. (Example: A specialty allergy test bill $750. Insurance paid $250.)

We really want more children. Abstaining during these long months has been sad. For us, trying to conceive right now is not what God wants for us. Through prayer we are at peace waiting for God’s will. As a wise nun has often said to me, “God’s delay is not God’s denial.”
 
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