Question re: Non-Practicing Catholic Getting Married

[Sarabande]

Is there any specific protocol for a non-practicing Catholic who is getting married to a non-Catholic in terms of dispensations, etc.? The person in question considers herself an agnostic and her fiance was not raised in any particular religion. She doesn’t want to get married in the Church because she doesn’t believe in anything the Church teaches and also isn’t even sure that she believes there is a God, so she doesn’t want to be a hypocrite and make a mockery of what we believe is a Sacrament. I know that a Catholic can request a dispensation to be married at a non-Catholic fiance’s place of worship. It is also my understanding that even though she considers herself an agnostic she is still a Catholic unless she officially and formally breaks from the Church. (Please correct me if I’m wrong on this as I am not completely sure on it.)

Knowing this person pretty well, I don’t think she’ll ever officially break from the Church, so should she apply for a dispensation? Most non-practicing Catholics I know don’t do this and just get married whereever they want, but she would like to know what the proper thing for her to do. I would love for her to be married in the Church as well, but I know you can’t force people to believe in something and she feels that she would be lying if she “went through the motions” of having a Catholic ceremony just because her family wants her to.

Thanks in advance.

 

[EasterJoy]

If your friend rejects one of the fundamental goods of marriage, which in this case is to say if she has no intention of raising her children in the Catholic faith, her marriage wouldn’t be valid. Although she is bound by canon law to marry according to the laws of the Church, it is not moral for her to lie to the Church in order to receive the required dispensations. Even if she were marrying a fellow Catholic, if it were clear that she rejected one or more of the goods of marriage when she made her vows, it would be grounds for a decree of nullity.

It is a sad situation for you and for her family, but there is little to be done about it other than to try to bring your friend back to the faith. Otherwise, any amount of following form is nothing more than pretense. It would not accomplish the desired end, and might even do harm.

 

[Sarabande]

If your friend rejects one of the fundamental goods of marriage, which in this case is to say if she has no intention of raising her children in the Catholic faith, her marriage wouldn’t be valid. Although she is bound by canon law to marry according to the laws of the Church, it is not moral for her to lie to the Church in order to receive the required dispensations. Even if she were marrying a fellow Catholic, if it were clear that she rejected one or more of the goods of marriage when she made her vows, it would be grounds for a decree of nullity.

It is a sad situation for you and for her family, but there is little to be done about it other than to try to bring your friend back to the faith. Otherwise, any amount of following form is nothing more than pretense. It would not accomplish the desired end, and might even do harm.

Thank you. This is how I’ve been feeling as well with the situation. She is a very good person and has had the “Christian” values instilled in her from her parents (even to the point at still being a virgin and waiting till she is married). But for as long as I’ve known her she has just never been interested in spirituality, faith, religion, etc. no matter what her family did to try to encourage it. I’ve tried encouraging it as well since I’m a little older and she looked up to me when we were younger, but in terms of faith, she just never could get on fire. We’ve all been praying for her in regards to this.

My only hope at this point if she does not gain any faith before the marriage is that she comes back later and has a convalidation. Her fiance is a wonderful person as well and I would love for both of them to come to the faith, but again, it can’t be forced.

 

[puzzleannie]

Is there any specific protocol for a non-practicing Catholic who is getting married to a non-Catholic in terms of dispensations, etc.? .

the protocol is for the Catholic party to return to the sacraments, beginning with confession, and return to the practice of the Faith so that they have a firm spiritual foundation on which to begin the most difficult of all vocations, marriage.

 

[MisterCorduroy]

Any priest with a backbone would refuse to witness the marriage anyway. Sure there are many that out of good intention allow these kind of marriages–I wish they didn’t.

You wouldn’t want her to go up for Communion in her state, so why the Sacrament of marriage? I never understood parents who insisted their apostate children get married in the church. If any of her family are more narrow minded than you it’s because they don’t understand the Sacrament. Sounds like this young lady has some understanding of what Catholic marriage should be and knows that she can’t/won’t live up to it. At least she’s honest.

Not to be cynical, but if the marriage doesn’t work out, the civil union will easily be declared null by a tribunal.

 

[Sarabande]

Any priest with a backbone would refuse to witness the marriage anyway. Sure there are many that out of good intention allow these kind of marriages–I wish they didn’t.

You wouldn’t want her to go up for Communion in her state, so why the Sacrament of marriage? I never understood parents who insisted their apostate children get married in the church. If any of her family are more narrow minded than you it’s because they don’t understand the Sacrament. Sounds like this young lady has some understanding of what Catholic marriage should be and knows that she can’t/won’t live up to it. At least she’s honest.

Not to be cynical, but if the marriage doesn’t work out, the civil union will easily be declared null by a tribunal.

Uh… I don’t believe she should get married in the Church either if she doesn’t believe in the tenants of the faith. We are all sad that she does not believe in it, but I do not believe in forcing people to choose a faith or spirituality or forcing them to marry in the Church if that is not what they believe in. Her parents are also not forcing the issue, because they DO UNDERSTAND the Sacrament, but it doesn’t mean they can’t be sad over this and still not wish she would return to the faith and be married in the Church. It has been difficult for them to handle, as you can imagine how hard it would be for any parent whose child leaves the faith. They are not forcing the issue. Please do not call them or me narrow minded, when we are far from it. We have a very good understanding of what’s going on.

She, herself, asked me if there was a specific protocol for her to get permission to not get married in the Church since she has no belief in the faith and has not practiced for years. If you read my posts correctly, that is what I’m asking and I’m doing it on her behalf. I work couples often in the capacity of music ministry, but I wasn’t as well-versed as to what to do in this particular situation. I especially have not tried to encourage to her get married in the Church, because I do agree that it would make a mockery of it if she does since she does not have believe in it. (I’ve seen enough of it in my own experience when working at nuptial masses.) I would love for her to eventually come back to the faith, but I know for now that is not the case.

 

[Sarabande]

the protocol is for the Catholic party to return to the sacraments, beginning with confession, and return to the practice of the Faith so that they have a firm spiritual foundation on which to begin the most difficult of all vocations, marriage.

Thank you. That would be the ideal. Unfortunately not the reality in her situation at this point in time. I will need to give her my opinion that a request for a dispensation would not be appropriate based on what she believes or does not believe, because it would still be hypocritical, which is what she wants to avoid.

 

[PatriceA]

Thank you. That would be the ideal. Unfortunately not the reality in her situation at this point in time. I will need to give her my opinion that a request for a dispensation would not be appropriate based on what she believes or does not believe, because it would still be hypocritical, which is what she wants to avoid.

I have the opposite opinion. I’d advise her to talk to a priest to get the dispensation with the hopes that the priest could give her good advice on what to do now and in the future. Better to talk to someone that is experienced in this kind of situation than asking anyone else for their opinions.

 

[Phemie]

I have the opposite opinion. I’d advise her to talk to a priest to get the dispensation with the hopes that the priest could give her good advice on what to do now and in the future. Better to talk to someone that is experienced in this kind of situation than asking anyone else for their opinions.

But the dispensation is usually only granted if there is a good reason to believe that the Catholic is not in danger of losing his/her faith and will have any children the union produces baptized and raised in the Catholic Church. Can she sign those papers under oath?

It’s because I knew that she’d be lying if she did it that, as much as it broke my heart to do so, I did not argue with DD when she said that she had absolutely no interest in marrying in the Church and went with a garden wedding officiated by a non-denominational minister.

 

[agapewolf]

The dispensation is from form, NOT from the tenets needed for a valid marriage.

She would still have to do pre cana, go to nfp class, and be questioned on the aspects that make a marriage valid (free, total, faithful, fruitful)

 

[Sarabande]

Thanks for the replies.

PatriceA - That’s a good point. I could suggest that to her and see what she thinks about it.

Phemie - I can imagine how you must have felt about your daughter. I know it breaks her parents’ hearts as well.

Agapewolf - I know that you have some good knowledge on this and had hoped you would pipe in here. Even though she is not practicing and considers herself agnostic, does she still have an obligation to get a dispensation and to go through the classes, pre-cana, etc.? That probably should be something she should ask a priest about, too.

 

[puzzleannie]

Thank you. That would be the ideal. Unfortunately not the reality in her situation at this point in time. I will need to give her my opinion that a request for a dispensation would not be appropriate based on what she believes or does not believe, because it would still be hypocritical, which is what she wants to avoid.

the best advice you can give is also the safest in these situations: if you have questions about marriage in the Catholic church your first stop is to make an appointment with the priest in your parish, or the closest parish, or the church where you would like to be married. Tell him all the particulars of you specific situation and allow him to guide you. Whether or not you decide to take his advice, he is the only one that can give the proper answers to all the issues that are involved.

 

[EasterJoy]

Thank you. This is how I’ve been feeling as well with the situation. She is a very good person and has had the “Christian” values instilled in her from her parents (even to the point at still being a virgin and waiting till she is married). But for as long as I’ve known her she has just never been interested in spirituality, faith, religion, etc. no matter what her family did to try to encourage it. I’ve tried encouraging it as well since I’m a little older and she looked up to me when we were younger, but in terms of faith, she just never could get on fire. We’ve all been praying for her in regards to this.

My only hope at this point if she does not gain any faith before the marriage is that she comes back later and has a convalidation. Her fiance is a wonderful person as well and I would love for both of them to come to the faith, but again, it can’t be forced.

She might have a mistaken impression about the role of emotional connection in practice of the faith. You don’t have to get all goose-bumpy when you receive the sacraments to be a practicing Catholic. It isn’t hypocritical to have questions. She doesn’t have to be willing to raise her children in the faith to still profit from having talked to a priest before she marries, either. It is better to make this kind of decision having been fully informed and having had the opportunity to ask questions.

You might mention to her that because there are so many non-Catholics marrying Catholics these days, pre-marital counselling within the Church is not conducted as if everyone were fully signed on to everything the Catholic Church teaches. That would be the ideal, but priests are used to getting the full spectrum of belief, not to mention practice. If she comes as says, “I don’t know if I believe the faith, but I do think the faith might help us to have a better marriage, and that is important to me”, I think the priest will probably help her out from that starting point.

It would be an excellent idea for this couple to receive pre-marital counselling. It requires the two of them to talk about certain questions that they will have to answer as a couple, more questions than most couples ever talk about before saying, “I do.”

Encourage her to go to go to the Church for her pre-marital counselling, if only for the sake of giving her marriage a better chance of being lasting. If she and her husband don’t feel comfortable asking for a dispensation after their preparation is complete, well, that’s no change. She’ll still finish knowing not just more about what the Church teaches concerning the meaning of marriage, but more about what she and her fiance both think, feel, and intend.

That ought to be very valuable and much to be desired, no matter what she decides. Having done, that, too, she will have investigated the matter with diligence, and can tell her family in good conscience that she has tried to reconcile herself with the Church, and what conclusions she came to. Her decision *not *to marry in the Church will have been a far more fully formed decision. From her family’s point of view, the seeds will have been planted, and they are more likely to leave her in peace with regards to her decision. I think she’ll thank herself for going that route.

 

[Sarabande]

Thanks so much Puzzelannie and Easterjoy!!! I truly appreciate this. I will talk to her about it again when I see her next week (I think these things are always better to talk about in person). Also, I’ve never thought about the misconception of emotional connection to faith practice with her, but I do remember her mentioning often when we were younger how she just didn’t “feel” anything and she was never very serious while at mass. She’s much more respectful now as an adult, of course.

 

[EasterJoy]

Thanks so much Puzzelannie and Easterjoy!!! I truly appreciate this. I will talk to her about it again when I see her next week (I think these things are always better to talk about in person). Also, I’ve never thought about the misconception of emotional connection to faith practice with her, but I do remember her mentioning often when we were younger how she just didn’t “feel” anything and she was never very serious while at mass. She’s much more respectful now as an adult, of course.

I think you’re right about talking in person!

If she doesn’t buy that fidelity in things religious is real when there isn’t a felt emotional connection, at least tell her to get it straight that the true test of fidelity in marriage is how you act when what you feel for your spouse is anything but romantic!

Seriously, though, the parallel is apt. Having said that, I wouldn’t be surprised if she remains uncommitted to the faith. If that is where she is, she can still profit from premarital preparation that involves talking to her spouse.

I don’t know about now, but in the old days Engaged Encounter was heavy on communicating but a bit weak on how to do it or what to do with what you communicate. You might also look at “The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work: A Practical Guide from the Country’s Foremost Relationship”, by John Gottman and Nan Silver, and see if it is something she’d like. (Lots of libraries have it.)

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

If your friend rejects one of the fundamental goods of marriage, which in this case is to say if she has no intention of raising her children in the Catholic faith, her marriage wouldn’t be valid.

Raising of children in the Catholic faith is not a fundamental good of marriage. That would have no effect on the validity of the marriage.

 

[DAAVEED1590]

Is there any specific protocol for a non-practicing Catholic who is getting married to a non-Catholic in terms of dispensations, etc.? The person in question considers herself an agnostic and her fiance was not raised in any particular religion. She doesn’t want to get married in the Church because she doesn’t believe in anything the Church teaches and also isn’t even sure that she believes there is a God, so she doesn’t want to be a hypocrite and make a mockery of what we believe is a Sacrament. I know that a Catholic can request a dispensation to be married at a non-Catholic fiance’s place of worship. It is also my understanding that even though she considers herself an agnostic she is still a Catholic unless she officially and formally breaks from the Church. (Please correct me if I’m wrong on this as I am not completely sure on it.)

Knowing this person pretty well, I don’t think she’ll ever officially break from the Church, so should she apply for a dispensation? Most non-practicing Catholics I know don’t do this and just get married whereever they want, but she would like to know what the proper thing for her to do. I would love for her to be married in the Church as well, but I know you can’t force people to believe in something and she feels that she would be lying if she “went through the motions” of having a Catholic ceremony just because her family wants her to.

Thanks in advance.

I hope you won’t think I am being too harsh when I say this, but I have a question, if she is agnostic and thus does not have full faith in God or His holy Church, why does she care what a non-practicing Catholic should do when getting married. After all, in her mind it [The Church] has no moral or genuine authority over her or anybody else. She might not even believe in God!? Having read your responses to others questions and responses about your situation, this is the picture I get. An agnostic non-practicing Catholic young woman who has never really had much, if any, faith in the Church, is marrying a religionless non-Catholic young man, and has asked what the proper thing for a non-practicing Catholic to do when getting married in this situation. I am not trying to judge, I am simply trying to clarify my understanding of the said parties state of faith. Please don’t rage at me:blush:

I will answer to the best of my ability (mind that I am not a theological expert)

First, the proper thing for a non-practicing Catholic to do when getting married is for the said party to return to practicing the Catholic faith by confessing, reciving the sacraments and professing a true belief in the teachings of the Church, and have her feance do the same. Then, they both get married in the church. That is really what a non-practicing Catholic should do. However, from the information you have provided, she will never do that. So any other alternative she choses will result in an invalad marriage.

Second, the fact that she is marring a non-Catholic complicates the situation. The Church strongly discourages mixed mairrages, but will offer dispensations if she feels that the faith of the future children is not being threteaned. However, in this case, the faith of the future children is obviously threatened because neither future parent has any faith themselves, so what are the chances that they will raise the children with any faith? Therefore, the Church will probably not offer a dispensation to your friend.

So really, unless she and her feance changes there beliefs to conform to the Truth of the Church and get married in it , then any marriage they enter will be invalad. Period. No getting around that. Either she does what the Church and God want, or she does what she wants. In this situation, both cannot be pleased.

Please give me both your friend and her feances first names so i can pray for them. Only God can help in this situation. My prayers obviously go out to you as well as you have to give this information to them.

God Bless and Ave Maria!

 

[Sarabande]

I hope you won’t think I am being too harsh when I say this, but I have a question, if she is agnostic and thus does not have full faith in God or His holy Church, why does she care what a non-practicing Catholic should do when getting married. After all, in her mind it [The Church] has no moral or genuine authority over her or anybody else. She might not even believe in God!? Having read your responses to others questions and responses about your situation, this is the picture I get. An agnostic non-practicing Catholic young woman who has never really had much, if any, faith in the Church, is marrying a religionless non-Catholic young man, and has asked what the proper thing for a non-practicing Catholic to do when getting married in this situation. I am not trying to judge, I am simply trying to clarify my understanding of the said parties state of faith. Please don’t rage at me:blush:

I will answer to the best of my ability (mind that I am not a theological expert)

First, the proper thing for a non-practicing Catholic to do when getting married is for the said party to return to practicing the Catholic faith by confessing, reciving the sacraments and professing a true belief in the teachings of the Church, and have her feance do the same. Then, they both get married in the church. That is really what a non-practicing Catholic should do. However, from the information you have provided, she will never do that. So any other alternative she choses will result in an invalad marriage.

Second, the fact that she is marring a non-Catholic complicates the situation. The Church strongly discourages mixed mairrages, but will offer dispensations if she feels that the faith of the future children is not being threteaned. However, in this case, the faith of the future children is obviously threatened because neither future parent has any faith themselves, so what are the chances that they will raise the children with any faith? Therefore, the Church will probably not offer a dispensation to your friend.

So really, unless she and her feance changes there beliefs to conform to the Truth of the Church and get married in it , then any marriage they enter will be invalad. Period. No getting around that. Either she does what the Church and God want, or she does what she wants. In this situation, both cannot be pleased.

Please give me both your friend and her feances first names so i can pray for them. Only God can help in this situation. My prayers obviously go out to you as well as you have to give this information to them.

God Bless and Ave Maria!

You are not sounding judgmental or harsh at all, so no worries. Practically all of the responses have been well-thought out, meaningful and helpful without knee-jerk reactions in judgment of people’s characters. So, I appreciate yours as well.

Honestly, I don’t know the real reason why she would care because, you are right, she considers herself an agnostic and has no other real connection with her religion or faith in general. I started this thread on behalf of her. Because she is aware that I have made this thread and knowing her well since we were very young, I do have my thoughts. But in deference to her I don’t want to give more information than what she is comfortable with me sharing in regards to my original question and what I have already imparted. That said, if she is willing to speak with a priest, it might help her better with the decisions she has made thus far, or at least help her to think more about them… whether that is to return to the Church or not.

Thank you for your prayers. That is what we have all been doing for her and her fiance which, right now, is probably the only thing we can do. We love both of them very much as they are truly wonderful people.

Edit - Also, after starting this thread and thinking about it a little more, it has made me a little hopeful that there may be a voice in there talking to her, which might be making her be concerned. It could be a seed which will eventually grow. But as I have said before, I am not one who believes in forcing beliefs and practices on others. I believe people find their own way, which is how my life has been. I’ve always been turned off by those who were pushy and I know she is similar to me in that regard. I’ll give an opinion if asked and try to be as neutral as I can be (although I’m not always successful), but hopefully try to also live well as an example rather than just talk. The last thing I want to do is push her further away.

 

[DAAVEED1590]

You are not sounding judgmental or harsh at all, so no worries. Practically all of the responses have been well-thought out, meaningful and helpful without knee-jerk reactions in judgment of people’s characters. So, I appreciate yours as well.

Thanks. I tend to talk in a very say-it-as-it-is way, so I can sometimes be offencive when I dont intend to be so. I am happy were not offended though, and that you appreciate my responce, as I was afraid you might not.

Honestly, I don’t know the real reason why she would care because, you are right, she considers herself an agnostic and has no other real connection with her religion or faith in general. I started this thread on behalf of her. Because she is aware that I have made this thread and knowing her well since we were very young, I do have my thoughts. But in deference to her I don’t want to give more information than what she is comfortable with me sharing in regards to my original question and what I have already imparted. That said, if she is willing to speak with a priest, it might help her better with the decisions she has made thus far, or at least help her to think more about them… whether that is to return to the Church or not.

**Yes, if she speaks to a priest, he might help her realise that the descisions she has made are wrong. It will have even more of an impact if she arranges the meeting herself, as she will feel that she is talking to him on her own terms.
**

Thank you for your prayers. That is what we have all been doing for her and her fiance which, right now, is probably the only thing we can do. We love both of them very much as they are truly wonderful people.

**I agree. In a situation like this that deals with deep rooted lives of sin and the conversion of a person(s), prayer is best, as we often are tempted to be uncharitable with our words when we become frustrated with the other partys lack of faith. God will mend all things when the time is right.
**

Edit - Also, after starting this thread and thinking about it a little more, it has made me a little hopeful that there may be a voice in there talking to her, which might be making her be concerned. It could be a seed which will eventually grow. But as I have said before, I am not one who believes in forcing beliefs and practices on others. I believe people find their own way, which is how my life has been. I’ve always been turned off by those who were pushy and I know she is similar to me in that regard. I’ll give an opinion if asked and try to be as neutral as I can be (although I’m not always successful), but hopefully try to also live well as an example rather than just talk. The last thing I want to do is push her further away.

Actuallly, I thought the exact same thing when I read your first thread. Maybe she wants to findout what she should do in this situation as a Catholic because she is curious about the Faith? Its very possible, as her close friendship with you has probably shown her how good Catholisism can be and is. It was Saint Francis who taught we should convert with our actions before our words. I think that approach is best in this situation. But do not be apprehencive about teaching her things about the faith if she begins to show genuine intrist. What a great victory it would be if her soul was won for Christ!

However, throw away this idea that “I can not force my beliefs and practices on others”. It stems from Americanism, which is summed up in the statement “live and let live” and “I can not force my religion on anyone” and “all religions are equal”. All these ideas are contrary to the teachings of Christ, who taught us that he is the only Truth, and that we must convert with a zeal all souls for Christ. For if they fall into hell becuase of our negligence, God will hold that against us at our judgement. The idea that “we cant force our faith on anyone” might make us apprehencive about trying to convert others.

Now in no way am I saying that it is exceptable to force someone to convert to Catholisism. However, in reality, it is impossible to ever force anyone to convert to any religion. Stick someones head underwater, or stabe them with a nail for a long enough time, and you can get them to say anything. However, it is hearts and souls we are after, not words and actions. Empty conversions are worthless. And forced conversions are empty and worthless conversions, so we must let them chose Christ. Our role is to set the example and to preach the Gosple to all people. And we must always be ready to accept them into the Body of Christ.

BTW, I think that this woman has a great friend in you. :thumbsup:By showing concern for her eternal soul, you are showing good moral character and a true love for this person. After all, this Sunday’s Gospel was about just that, correcting your peer out of love for thier soul and concern for their salvation…

Anyway sorry for the long, preachey responce, I talk too much:blush:

God Bless and Ave Maria!

 

[EasterJoy]

Raising of children in the Catholic faith is not a fundamental good of marriage. That would have no effect on the validity of the marriage.

This does not make sense to me. A Catholic has a right to marry, but a Catholic who wants permission to marry a non-Catholic must promise to raise the children Catholic. If you don’t agree to that, you don’t get the permission, and if you don’t get permission, your marriage will not be valid. Furthermore, even when you exchange vows with a fellow Catholic, you are required to consent to “accept children lovingly from God, and bring them up according to the law of Christ and his Church.” Are you saying that a couple can choose to say “no, I won’t” instead of “yes, I do” on some of their vows, and the marriage will go on fine, anyway?

I can see where you might mean that raising children in the faith might not be listed on some official statement giving the “fundamental goods of marriage”, but I’m talking about practice, not theory. If it is not fundamentally required that a Catholic raise their children Catholic, then how can the Church make that a requirement for permission to marry a person outside the faith? How would adding unnecessary conditions not violate the Catholic’s right to marry? Also, if my husband were to lie on our wedding day, and say later that he never intended to raise our children as he had solemnly and publicly promised he would do, then why would that have no effect on the validity of our marriage?

Are you telling me that as far as validity goes, there are some lies made in the wedding vows that are fatal to the attempt at marriage and some lies that are not? I don’t get it.