Question re: Process of Discerning move towards Eastern Catholicism

[PursuitofJoy3]

Good evening,
This is long and I am appreciative for any help or thoughts on this. Thank you.

I was born to Catholic (Maronite/ Roman) raised parents who converted to Syrian Orthodoxy during their wedding ceremony, but never practiced the Orthodox faith. Upon my birth, they had me baptized Roman Catholic, but I was raised in presbyterian/ evangelical churches.
My husband was raised Calvinist Baptist/ evangelical.
As we journeyed together and tried to find our spiritual “home”, we ended up in a protestant church which had a “covenant renewal” liturgy (similar to a mass with weekly communion) and baptized + communed small children (the pastor has strong affection for EO).
Through several years of the Holy Spirit working on our hearts, we finally saw the need to enter into full communion with the See of Rome. The only church that fit that description in our small rural town, was the Roman Catholic Church. Even though we still desired infant communion, we did not want to drive long distances for church and desired a nearby community, so we decided to attend this parish. We received an abbreviated RCIA course, marriage validation, first reconciliation, confirmation, and first Holy Communion in this parish. We knew full well what both our particular archdiocese and the Latin rite’s rules regarding first communion/ first penance/ confirmation were, but did not think we really had any other choices, since the closest Byzantine churches are several hours away, We tried to see the bright side, saying things like, “maybe it will mean more to them if they are older and able to remember it,” “maybe they will appreciate it more if they can’t have it right now,” “first communion dresses are so pretty!” (well, okay, I said that last one, not my husband).

We are coming up on one year since our confirmation, and have grown increasingly uncomfortable with the way the Latin rite does the sacraments.As we’ve learned and read this past year, we have realized more fully that the three sacraments of initiation are Baptism, Confirmation, and Eucharist. It does not make sense to us that our children have to wait to be confirmed until they’re in high school, but will receive penance before the Eucharist.
As we have participated in the Eucharist and fallen in love with this Sacrament, it has become increasingly devastating to us to not be able to share this amazing gift with our little ones, as they were accustomed to receiving the protestant version of the Eucharist every week.

The closest parish to us which communes small children is a Melkite Church which is a 3 hour drive. As I have learned about the Melkite Church, I have also grown to desire to instill in my children an appreciation for their Lebanese/ Middle-Eastern heritage. (I have grandparents & great grandparents raised Maronite Catholic, Melkite Catholic and Syrian Orthodox). I grew up with exposure to Arabic culture and I also feel a desire to pass this onto my children in some way.

I know this would be up to the priests & bishops to decide, but my husband & I were wondering if anyone here had experience, thoughts or advice on making a transition from the Roman church to an Eastern church, especially if the Eastern church is quite a distance from one’s home. We would love for our children to receive confirmation & eucharist while they are still young (they’re 6, 4, and 1 now) and were wondering if it would be possible for us to become Melkite canonically & attend the divine liturgy there periodically but still attend the local latin rite parish for mass on a daily/ weekly basis since it’s only 2 minutes away.

Thank you again for reading.

 

[SyroMalankara]

After reading your stated background I’d say leaving for another church is probably not a good idea - at least not so soon. Stability would be good. Try sticking with the Latin Church for a number of years before leaving.

However, if you are intent on doing this, there are many Eastern Catholic and/or Orthodox Churches all over the US. It would be best to go where you can regularly practice. Where do you live?

 

[PursuitofJoy3]

Thank you for your reply.
Stability is important, you are right. That is something we have been lacking, as we moved and had a really hard time finding a fit in the protestant world. Now that we’re Catholic, we enjoy it, but do miss the paedocommunion.
We’re in south Alabama.

 

[JamalChristophr]

Hi,

I am of Syrian origin myself but I am happy in the Latin Church, though i think I’d be just as happy in most any other rite to be honest. It seems one of your best courses of action would be to speak with a latin rite priest that you feel comfortable with on these issues. Also, you should contact the Eastern Catholic parish that you’re considering and speak to them about your issues.

Sitting down face to face with a priest is going to be the ideal way to go, it seems to me.

Although there are some here that can give you an idea of the feasibility of such a proposition.

May Christ and the Blessed Virgin abundantly bless your family, and welcome home!

 

[Vico]

Good evening,
This is long and I am appreciative for any help or thoughts on this. Thank you.

I was born to Catholic (Maronite/ Roman) raised parents who converted to Syrian Orthodoxy during their wedding ceremony, but never practiced the Orthodox faith. Upon my birth, they had me baptized Roman Catholic, but I was raised in presbyterian/ evangelical churches.
My husband was raised Calvinist Baptist/ evangelical.
As we journeyed together and tried to find our spiritual “home”, we ended up in a protestant church which had a “covenant renewal” liturgy (similar to a mass with weekly communion) and baptized + communed small children (the pastor has strong affection for EO).
Through several years of the Holy Spirit working on our hearts, we finally saw the need to enter into full communion with the See of Rome. The only church that fit that description in our small rural town, was the Roman Catholic Church. Even though we still desired infant communion, we did not want to drive long distances for church and desired a nearby community, so we decided to attend this parish. We received an abbreviated RCIA course, marriage validation, first reconciliation, confirmation, and first Holy Communion in this parish. We knew full well what both our particular archdiocese and the Latin rite’s rules regarding first communion/ first penance/ confirmation were, but did not think we really had any other choices, since the closest Byzantine churches are several hours away, We tried to see the bright side, saying things like, “maybe it will mean more to them if they are older and able to remember it,” “maybe they will appreciate it more if they can’t have it right now,” “first communion dresses are so pretty!” (well, okay, I said that last one, not my husband).

We are coming up on one year since our confirmation, and have grown increasingly uncomfortable with the way the Latin rite does the sacraments.As we’ve learned and read this past year, we have realized more fully that the three sacraments of initiation are Baptism, Confirmation, and Eucharist. It does not make sense to us that our children have to wait to be confirmed until they’re in high school, but will receive penance before the Eucharist.
As we have participated in the Eucharist and fallen in love with this Sacrament, it has become increasingly devastating to us to not be able to share this amazing gift with our little ones, as they were accustomed to receiving the protestant version of the Eucharist every week.

The closest parish to us which communes small children is a Melkite Church which is a 3 hour drive. As I have learned about the Melkite Church, I have also grown to desire to instill in my children an appreciation for their Lebanese/ Middle-Eastern heritage. (I have grandparents & great grandparents raised Maronite Catholic, Melkite Catholic and Syrian Orthodox). I grew up with exposure to Arabic culture and I also feel a desire to pass this onto my children in some way.

I know this would be up to the priests & bishops to decide, but my husband & I were wondering if anyone here had experience, thoughts or advice on making a transition from the Roman church to an Eastern church, especially if the Eastern church is quite a distance from one’s home. We would love for our children to receive confirmation & eucharist while they are still young (they’re 6, 4, and 1 now) and were wondering if it would be possible for us to become Melkite canonically & attend the divine liturgy there periodically but still attend the local latin rite parish for mass on a daily/ weekly basis since it’s only 2 minutes away.

Thank you again for reading.

If you are eastern Catholic then it has implications for your children.

You were baptized into a particular ritual Catholic church, since you said your parents were Maronite and Latin, do you know the church of ascription of your Father? Also did they agree to ascribe you to the Latin Church or the Maronite Church? If there was no agreement and your Father was Maronite, then your ascription, by law, is to the Maronite.

Since your husband is from the Latin tradition, he is Latin Catholic, unless you are Maronite and he elected to transfer to your church upon marriage, or was granted a transfer by the Catholic hierarchy.

 

[PursuitofJoy3]

If you are eastern Catholic then it has implications for your children.

You were baptized into a particular ritual Catholic church, since you said your parents were Maronite and Latin, do you know the church of ascription of your Father? Also did they agree to ascribe you to the Latin Church or the Maronite Church? If there was no agreement and your Father was Maronite, then your ascription, by law, is to the Maronite.

Since your husband is from the Latin tradition, he is Latin Catholic, unless you are Maronite and he elected to transfer to your church upon marriage, or was granted a transfer by the Catholic hierarchy.

My mother was baptized Maronite and my dad was Latin. I was baptized in a Latin parish. I don’t think their intention was for me to be Maronite, though there was no local parish.

 

[Proton]

After reading your stated background I’d say leaving for another church is probably not a good idea - at least not so soon. Stability would be good. Try sticking with the Latin Church for a number of years before leaving.

However, if you are intent on doing this, there are many Eastern Catholic and/or Orthodox Churches all over the US. It would be best to go where you can regularly practice. Where do you live?

They are Roman-Catholic, be careful when you advice them Orthodox Church for communion, they would have to be baptized in the Orthodox Church first to receive holy communion there.

 

[Proton]

Good evening,
This is long and I am appreciative for any help or thoughts on this. Thank you.

I was born to Catholic (Maronite/ Roman) raised parents who converted to Syrian Orthodoxy during their wedding ceremony, but never practiced the Orthodox faith. Upon my birth, they had me baptized Roman Catholic, but I was raised in presbyterian/ evangelical churches.
My husband was raised Calvinist Baptist/ evangelical.
As we journeyed together and tried to find our spiritual “home”, we ended up in a protestant church which had a “covenant renewal” liturgy (similar to a mass with weekly communion) and baptized + communed small children (the pastor has strong affection for EO).
Through several years of the Holy Spirit working on our hearts, we finally saw the need to enter into full communion with the See of Rome. The only church that fit that description in our small rural town, was the Roman Catholic Church. Even though we still desired infant communion, we did not want to drive long distances for church and desired a nearby community, so we decided to attend this parish. We received an abbreviated RCIA course, marriage validation, first reconciliation, confirmation, and first Holy Communion in this parish. We knew full well what both our particular archdiocese and the Latin rite’s rules regarding first communion/ first penance/ confirmation were, but did not think we really had any other choices, since the closest Byzantine churches are several hours away, We tried to see the bright side, saying things like, “maybe it will mean more to them if they are older and able to remember it,” “maybe they will appreciate it more if they can’t have it right now,” “first communion dresses are so pretty!” (well, okay, I said that last one, not my husband).

We are coming up on one year since our confirmation, and have grown increasingly uncomfortable with the way the Latin rite does the sacraments.As we’ve learned and read this past year, we have realized more fully that the three sacraments of initiation are Baptism, Confirmation, and Eucharist. It does not make sense to us that our children have to wait to be confirmed until they’re in high school, but will receive penance before the Eucharist.
As we have participated in the Eucharist and fallen in love with this Sacrament, it has become increasingly devastating to us to not be able to share this amazing gift with our little ones, as they were accustomed to receiving the protestant version of the Eucharist every week.

The closest parish to us which communes small children is a Melkite Church which is a 3 hour drive. As I have learned about the Melkite Church, I have also grown to desire to instill in my children an appreciation for their Lebanese/ Middle-Eastern heritage. (I have grandparents & great grandparents raised Maronite Catholic, Melkite Catholic and Syrian Orthodox). I grew up with exposure to Arabic culture and I also feel a desire to pass this onto my children in some way.

I know this would be up to the priests & bishops to decide, but my husband & I were wondering if anyone here had experience, thoughts or advice on making a transition from the Roman church to an Eastern church, especially if the Eastern church is quite a distance from one’s home. We would love for our children to receive confirmation & eucharist while they are still young (they’re 6, 4, and 1 now) and were wondering if it would be possible for us to become Melkite canonically & attend the divine liturgy there periodically but still attend the local latin rite parish for mass on a daily/ weekly basis since it’s only 2 minutes away.

Thank you again for reading.

If the holy communion is so precious for your kids to have it at early age, take that 3 hours driving distance.

 

[PursuitofJoy3]

This is my understanding also - that if our children received their sacraments in an Eastern church, that the Latin rite priest would commune them provided he knew the situation beforehand.

 

[Vico]

My mother was baptized Maronite and my dad was Latin. I was baptized in a Latin parish. I don’t think their intention was for me to be Maronite, though there was no local parish.

Ok. That makes it almost certain that your children are ascribed to the Latin Church. If there is no note to the contrary in the baptismal record of it, then it will be Latin. Your children were baptised intants in the Latin tradition and are ascribed to your Catholic church. So clarification of ascription is important for the priest to know which sacramental discipline to follow. According to the Maronite Eparchy of Our Lady of Lebanon, “In the Maronite Church, the baptismal candidate also receives the Mystery of Chrismation with Holy Myron on the same occasion as Baptism (CCEO c. 695 §1). Divine Eucharist is not administered until the child reaches the age of reason.”

eparchy.org/ourladyoflebanon/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=111&Itemid=86

So the Latin Catholic and Maronite wait to the age of reason.

For the Latin Church this is the rule to follow for both the clergy and faithful:CIC

Can. 913 §1. The administration of the Most Holy Eucharist to children requires that they have sufficient knowledge and careful preparation so that they understand the mystery of Christ according to their capacity and are able to receive the body of Christ with faith and devotion.
§2. The Most Holy Eucharist, however, can be administered to children in danger of death if they can distinguish the body of Christ from ordinary food and receive communion reverently.
The sacramental discipline in the eastern Catholic law is shown below and allows for variations:CCEO

Canon 697 Sacramental initiation in the mystery of salvation is perfected in the reception of the Divine Eucharist, and thus the Divine Eucharist is administered after baptism and chrismation with holy myron as soon as possible according to the norms of the particular law of the each Church sui iuris.

I am Byzantine Catholic, and we do fully initiate infants at one time (it is during the Divine Liturgy and all three Holy Mysteries are given one after the other: Baptism, Chrysmation, and Holy Eucharist). In our parish we have Latin and various eastern Catholics as regular participants. He does not commune the Latin infants, only those know to be eastern (giving infant Eucharist).

 

[JamalChristophr]

This is my understanding also - that if our children received their sacraments in an Eastern church, that the Latin rite priest would commune them provided he knew the situation beforehand.

Yes,I have seen it with my own eyes.

 

[PursuitofJoy3]

Ok. That makes it almost certain that your children are ascribed to the Latin Church. If there is no note to the contrary in the baptismal record of it, then it will be Latin. Your children were baptised intants in the Latin tradition and are ascribed to your Catholic church. So clarification of ascription is important for the priest to know which sacramental discipline to follow. According to the Maronite Eparchy of Our Lady of Lebanon, “In the Maronite Church, the baptismal candidate also receives the Mystery of Chrismation with Holy Myron on the same occasion as Baptism (CCEO c. 695 §1). Divine Eucharist is not administered until the child reaches the age of reason.”

eparchy.org/ourladyoflebanon/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=111&Itemid=86

So the Latin Catholic and Maronite wait to the age of reason.

For the Latin Church this is the rule to follow for both the clergy and faithful:CIC

Can. 913 §1. The administration of the Most Holy Eucharist to children requires that they have sufficient knowledge and careful preparation so that they understand the mystery of Christ according to their capacity and are able to receive the body of Christ with faith and devotion.
§2. The Most Holy Eucharist, however, can be administered to children in danger of death if they can distinguish the body of Christ from ordinary food and receive communion reverently.
The sacramental discipline in the eastern Catholic law is shown below and allows for variations:CCEO

Canon 697 Sacramental initiation in the mystery of salvation is perfected in the reception of the Divine Eucharist, and thus the Divine Eucharist is administered after baptism and chrismation with holy myron as soon as possible according to the norms of the particular law of the each Church sui iuris.

I am Byzantine Catholic, and we do fully initiate infants at one time (it is during the Divine Liturgy and all three Holy Mysteries are given one after the other: Baptism, Chrysmation, and Holy Eucharist). In our parish we have Latin and various eastern Catholics as regular participants. He does not commune the Latin infants, only those know to be eastern (giving infant Eucharist).

Thank you for sharing this information. We thought that was most likely the case (we are all Latin, therefore we submit to the Latin canons regarding the age of reason).

We understand that we must submit to our bishop regarding this matter and we desire to do so cheerfully even if we strongly prefer infant communion. This is why we were considering the possibility of requesting to be transferred canonically to an Eastern church so that all of our children could begin receiving the Eucharist.

I find the varying practices between the east & west to be worlds apart in the way that children and catechesis are approached. At what age does a person truly “understand”? My four year old plays “mass” at home with bread and cups of water & grape juice, pouring and pretending to “offer it up.” I ask him, “what does the bread and wine become during mass?” He answers, “Jesus!” He believes and he will continue to learn by doing & experiencing, not just by completion of a certain number of intellectually stimulating academic worksheets. We are technically Latin rite on paper, but we recognize that our personal beliefs are far more in line with the eastern churches on this particular matter. We believe that the Eucharist is the “source & summit of our faith” - so watching our children (who WANT to be included and who believe) being excluded week after week is obviously not our preference. But again, we will continue to submit regarding this matter unless there is an alternative solution.

 

[SyroMalankara]

They are Roman-Catholic, be careful when you advice them Orthodox Church for communion, they would have to be baptized in the Orthodox Church first to receive holy communion there.

Not necessarily, depends on the Orthodox jurisdiction. Syriac Orthodox and Armenian Orthodox do not require this in all cases.

Nevertheless, to the original poster, some Latin parish priests have their bishop’s permission to move their children’s 1st Communion to 7years old, so it might be a moot point for your first 2 older kids.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Thank you for your reply.
Stability is important, you are right. That is something we have been lacking, as we moved and had a really hard time finding a fit in the protestant world. Now that we’re Catholic, we enjoy it, but do miss the paedocommunion.
We’re in south Alabama.

Just an FYI, regarding a Byzantine mission:
Seeking Information

Information is being sought to determine if sufficient interest exists to pursue the formation of missions in the following areas:

ALABAMA: Mobile, Alabama / Gulf Coast Mississippi: Contact St. Catherine of Siena Church, 2605 Springhill Ave., Mobile, AL 36607, Phone: 251-473-1415.

 

[PursuitofJoy3]

Just an FYI, regarding a Byzantine mission:
Seeking Information

Information is being sought to determine if sufficient interest exists to pursue the formation of missions in the following areas:

ALABAMA: Mobile, Alabama / Gulf Coast Mississippi: Contact St. Catherine of Siena Church, 2605 Springhill Ave., Mobile, AL 36607, Phone: 251-473-1415.

Thank you so much for sharing this. We’re only about an hour away from there. We saw it on the website, so I called the church recently and they told me that unfortunately, the priest responsible for it has passed away, so there is no longer anyone doing this.

 

[PursuitofJoy3]

Not necessarily, depends on the Orthodox jurisdiction. Syriac Orthodox and Armenian Orthodox do not require this in all cases.

Nevertheless, to the original poster, some Latin parish priests have their bishop’s permission to move their children’s 1st Communion to 7years old, so it might be a moot point for your first 2 older kids.

Thank you. Are Catholics allowed (by the Catholic Church) to receive the Eucharist in Orthodox churches if the Orthodox allow it?

 

[Vico]

Thank you. Are Catholics allowed (by the Catholic Church) to receive the Eucharist in Orthodox churches if the Orthodox allow it?

Not unless physically or morally impossible and the danger of indifferentism is avoided.

CICCan. 844
** §1. **Catholic ministers administer the sacraments licitly to Catholic members of the Christian faithful alone, who likewise receive them licitly from Catholic ministers alone, without prejudice to the prescripts of §§2, 3, and 4 of this canon, and can. 861, §2.
**§2. **Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it, and provided that danger of error or of indifferentism is avoided, the Christian faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister are permitted to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.
§3. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick licitly to members of Eastern Churches which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church if they seek such on their own accord and are properly disposed. This is also valid for members of other Churches which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition in regard to the sacraments as these Eastern Churches.
§4. If the danger of death is present or if, in the judgment of the diocesan bishop or conference of bishops, some other grave necessity urges it, Catholic ministers administer these same sacraments licitly also to other Christians not having full communion with the Catholic Church, who cannot approach a minister of their own community and who seek such on their own accord, provided that they manifest Catholic faith in respect to these sacraments and are properly disposed.

Can. 861
**§2. **When an ordinary minister is absent or impeded, a catechist or another person designated for this function by the local ordinary, or in a case of necessity any person with the right intention, confers baptism licitly. Pastors of souls, especially the pastor of a parish, are to be concerned that the Christian faithful are taught the correct way to baptize.

 

[Proton]

Not necessarily, depends on the Orthodox jurisdiction. Syriac Orthodox and Armenian Orthodox do not require this in all cases.

Nevertheless, to the original poster, some Latin parish priests have their bishop’s permission to move their children’s 1st Communion to 7years old, so it might be a moot point for your first 2 older kids.

Syriac Orthodox and Armenian Orthodox are ORIENTAL Orthodox and they are not in communion with Constantinople - Orthodox Church.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Syriac Orthodox and Armenian Orthodox are ORIENTAL Orthodox and they are not in communion with Constantinople - Orthodox Church.

Right. That’s why I stated, “depends on the Orthodox jurisdiction.” Being in communion with Constantinople is not the universal definition of “Orthodox”. I don’t think Eastern Orthodox define Orthodox that way internally.

 

[Proton]

Orthodox Church teaches that only those in communion with Orthodox Church are Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox are not only different jurisdiction, they have different teachings on Christ’s dual nature and they have no all 7 Ecumenical Councils confirmed. They separated from the 5 Patriarchates in 5th century.