Question re SSPX

[commenter]

What about current families? They seem to be living their parish life at their SSPX run Catholic parish, no laity belong to SSPX only priests

A parish and a **diocese ** have certain purposes in the Church, with ecclesiastic oversight. The SSPX doesn’t have any parishes; their chapels offer some aspects of parish life, but not others. Their chapels are not in relationship to other parishes in geographic or ethnic proximity. They are not in relationship with a bishop ordinary, with the Holy See, nor with the educational, spiritual, and service life of a diocese. A parish is created as an integral part of a diocese, not to be free floating.

The SSPX has no dioceses. Technically they have no laity, but they are attached, and chapels request exclusive loyalty, from lay people. These attached families have no real pastor, no bishop ordinary, and, sometimes, cut off from both bad and good supports in their city. So families suffer.

In my area there are Eastern Catholic parishes, an Anglican Ordinariate parish, and Opus Dei members who have some programs here. But all of them are also active in, benefit from, sometimes take the lead in regional Catholic activities from the Latin Diocese, including Catholic Action, so emphasized by St. Pius X. This is especially true of prolife.

This is totally different from families in the SSPX chapel.

 

[Jestersage]

A parish and a **diocese ** have certain purposes in the Church, with ecclesiastic oversight. The SSPX doesn’t have any parishes; their chapels offer some aspects of parish life, but not others. Their chapels are not in relationship to other parishes in geographic or ethnic proximity. They are not in relationship with a bishop ordinary, with the Holy See, nor with the educational, spiritual, and service life of a diocese. A parish is created as an integral part of a diocese, not to be free floating.

The SSPX has no dioceses. Technically they have no laity, but they are attached, and chapels request exclusive loyalty, from lay people. These attached families have no real pastor, no bishop ordinary, and, sometimes, cut off from both bad and good supports in their city. So families suffer.

In my area there are Eastern Catholic parishes, an Anglican Ordinariate parish, and Opus Dei members who have some programs here. But all of them are also active in, benefit from, sometimes take the lead in regional Catholic activities from the Latin Diocese, including Catholic Action, so emphasized by St. Pius X. This is especially true of prolife.

This is totally different from families in the SSPX chapel.

If what you said is true, then while their theology and liturgy are definitely Catholic, the operation and administration is completely protestant.

 

[commenter]

If what you said is true, then while their theology and liturgy are definitely Catholic, the operation and administration is completely protestant.

In my diocese we have parishes entrusted to a religious order - entrusted by the bishop ordinary. The laity belong to the diocese, are under the bishop; the parish is in relationship to the bishop and other parishes. The religious orders have connection to the Church, and each other, at the diocesan, national, and Vatican level.

The SSPX **clergy **have some oversight at the priory, region, district, or world level, but only from the SSPX. Historically, even good priests (and there are some good ones at chapels) sometimes err, they go off on tangents, or they may be meeting their own needs rather than the needs of their flocks. This happens in the Church itself at times, and I had problems with my last 2, then-liberal parishes.

In the long run, those problems in **parishes **tend to get resolved, because there are various oversights for pastoral care of the laity in the Church itself. But in a chapel, with connection to a free-standing religious order with no checks and balances in the Church itself? And no relation to other religious orders or parishes for support?

Putting a “Vatican Approved” sign on the door of the **very **independent chapel would not resolve the problem of pastoral oversight and ministry to the families. Families will only benefit by connecting to their diocese.

 

[giuseppeTO]

In my diocese we have parishes entrusted to a religious order - entrusted by the bishop ordinary. The laity belong to the diocese, are under the bishop; the parish is in relationship to the bishop and other parishes. The religious orders have connection to the Church, and each other, at the diocesan, national, and Vatican level.

The SSPX **clergy **have some oversight at the priory, region, district, or world level, but only from the SSPX. Historically, even good priests (and there are some good ones at chapels) sometimes err, they go off on tangents, or they may be meeting their own needs rather than the needs of their flocks. This happens in the Church itself at times, and I had problems with my last 2, then-liberal parishes.

In the long run, those problems in **parishes **tend to get resolved, because there are various oversights for pastoral care of the laity in the Church itself. But in a chapel, with connection to a free-standing religious order with no checks and balances in the Church itself? And no relation to other religious orders or parishes for support?

Putting a “Vatican Approved” sign on the door of the **very **independent chapel would not resolve the problem of pastoral oversight and ministry to the families. Families will only benefit by connecting to their diocese.

C-

What you describe here is not accurate. There is strict oversight by the US District over every chapel including financial audits and regular District Superior ‘pastoral’ visits where the District Superior meets privately with each priest in a particular priory, as well as with the laity of the chapel to hear of any concerns or suggestions. It is true that there have been issues throughout the years, as there are in the diocese, as we are all subject to our fallen nature. These issues are dealt with promptly, in my experience. And in the case of some priests (and even a Bishop) with extreme views, they have been ejected from the order by the Superior General.

There are a few diocese, mostly in Europe, who have incorporated the SSPX Chapel into their diocese and provided those priests with ordinary faculties.

It is common for every SSPX chapel to be actively involved in the local pro-life movement and with community outreach, especially where a chapel is in the “hood”, so to speak.

As far as a pastor goes, every chapel has one, although he can not be technically called a pastor as that is an assignment from the ordinary. He functions as the spiritual guide for all of the faithful who assist at Mass in that chapel. The District provides for regular visits by priests preaching special missions and the District has elaborate facilities for men/women/married couples retreats.

So there are significant checks and balances from the District level and in many cases at the Superior General level. In those cases, they are referred to Rome, as they would be from any diocese, and Rome (The Pope) delegates the Superior (Bishop Fellay) to make the final adjudication in those cases referred to Rome.

Over the last decade, the Society has been working very closely with the church hierarchy in anticipation of a regularization. Bishop Fellay has met with Pope Francis at least twice a year since the beginning of his Pontificate. As the Pope himself recently stated, we must move slowly and patiently.

The more we can avoid polemics, the easier the ‘integration’ will be. There are detractors on both sides of the issue that make the process even slower.

 

[commenter]

C-

What you describe here is not accurate. There is strict oversight by the US District over every chapel including financial audits and regular District Superior ‘pastoral’ visits where the District Superior meets privately with each priest in a particular priory, as well as with the laity of the chapel to hear of any concerns or suggestions. It is true that there have been issues throughout the years, as there are in the diocese, as we are all subject to our fallen nature. These issues are dealt with promptly, in my experience. And in the case of some priests (and even a Bishop) with extreme views, they have been ejected from the order by the Superior General.

There are a few diocese, mostly in Europe, who have incorporated the SSPX Chapel into their diocese and provided those priests with ordinary faculties.

It is common for every SSPX chapel to be actively involved in the local pro-life movement and with community outreach, especially where a chapel is in the “hood”, so to speak.

As far as a pastor goes, every chapel has one, although he can not be technically called a pastor as that is an assignment from the ordinary. He functions as the spiritual guide for all of the faithful who assist at Mass in that chapel. The District provides for regular visits by priests preaching special missions and the District has elaborate facilities for men/women/married couples retreats.

So there are significant checks and balances from the District level and in many cases at the Superior General level. In those cases, they are referred to Rome, as they would be from any diocese, and Rome (The Pope) delegates the Superior (Bishop Fellay) to make the final adjudication in those cases referred to Rome.

Over the last decade, the Society has been working very closely with the church hierarchy in anticipation of a regularization. Bishop Fellay has met with Pope Francis at least twice a year since the beginning of his Pontificate. As the Pope himself recently stated, we must move slowly and patiently.

The more we can avoid polemics, the easier the ‘integration’ will be. There are detractors on both sides of the issue that make the process even slower.

G,
As always, your summary is relevant and not at all polemical. I can’t comment on it, since you have experience that I don’t have. In my prior posts, I was not thinking about abuses, which can happen anywhere, including diocesan parishes. I was thinking about laity accessing good ideas and guidance from local Catholic sources outside their chapel’s or parish’s affiliated religious order.

If that happens in a chapel in your city, that is very good.

 

[reggieM]

G,
As always, your summary is relevant and not at all polemical. I can’t comment on it, since you have experience that I don’t have. In my prior posts, I was not thinking about abuses, which can happen anywhere, including diocesan parishes. I was thinking about laity accessing good ideas and guidance from local Catholic sources outside their chapel’s or parish’s affiliated religious order.

If that happens in a chapel in your city, that is very good.

I admire your response here also. Too often we can get defensive and want to argue, but if we can reach some agreement on good things, that’s a solid step forward.

 

[Dempsey1919]

The SSPX are Catholic. The priests pray for Pope Francis in the Canon. Bishop Fellay is in contact with Roman dicasteries. They aren’t in schism. They’re in an irregular canonical situation.

The SSPX are a great group of priests. They’ve literally been the black sheep of the Catholic Church. In my honest opinion, history will be kind to them. They’ve been badly treated for decades. People complain that the SSPX reject Vatican II, but we’ve all seen people in the ‘mainstream’ who call for female ordination, the abolition of Humane Vitae, married priests…ad nauseam. There has been a huge double standard. I’ve always said that we should pray that Rome issue an authoritative statement on Vatican II and that the SSPX be given a canonical structure. We need to pray for orthodoxy and clarity.

 

[Jestersage]

I think the best way for someone like me is then:
If there exist FSSP nearby, go with FSSP.
However, if there are inconvenience, then SSPX is acceptable.

 

[Dempsey1919]

However, if there are inconvenience, then SSPX is acceptable.

You can go to the SSPX. It’s perfectly fine. You can even go if there’s an FSSP nearby. I’m not going to post the evidence because it’s one google search away, but Rome has given the laity permission to attend Mass and confession at the SSPX chapel - and even make a modest donation at the offertory.

Think about it. Rome says we can participate in protestant ecumenical services. That being the case, we can definitely attend a Catholic Mass celebrated by a Catholic priest. That’s my logical conclusion.

 

[Kielbasi]

The SSPX are a great group of priests. They’ve literally been the black sheep of the Catholic Church. In my honest opinion, history will be kind to them. They’ve been badly treated for decades.

I don’t see how they’ve been “badly treated”? certainly people disagree with their activities and beliefs, but disputes- even heated ones- aren’t ‘bad treatment’

 

[reggieM]

I think the best way for someone like me is then:
If there exist FSSP nearby, go with FSSP.
However, if there are inconvenience, then SSPX is acceptable.

Yes, and keep a watch out for very harsh polemic which may have a negative effect on your spiritual growth. I know of several good people who innocently slipped right out of the Church because they embraced an extreme criticism of the Church from the SSPX (and just took it a little farther than the SSPX does). So, if you’re mindful of the potential danger (the same, perhaps worse, danger exists in liberal “authorized” parishes so it’s not confined to traditional sites), you’ll be fine.

 

[commenter]

Yes, and keep a watch out for very harsh polemic which may have a negative effect on your spiritual growth. I know of several good people who innocently slipped right out of the Church because they embraced an extreme criticism of the Church from the SSPX (and just took it a little farther than the SSPX does). So, if you’re mindful of the potential danger (the same, perhaps worse, danger exists in liberal “authorized” parishes so it’s not confined to traditional sites), you’ll be fine.

We sometimes have harsh polemic on CAF, on this and other issues. We have to keep in mind:

• there’s a child of God on the other end, who reads this;
• I personally don’t have all the answers;
• Any direct experience or facts I can share can be useful to others;
• My opinions or theories are less useful, but can also be shared;
• Be careful not to assert as official teaching, unless you know it for a fact;
• pray for guidance and charity before posting;
• keep in mind the people on the other side of this debate have often felt frustration at the same abuses that you have. They have responded in another way. The likelihood they will consider your own chosen response for the future depends on the respect they perceive in you.
• History is important, but we can’t now win the battles of the 1960s and 70s. But there are dragons in 2017 that definitely need slaying.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Yes, and keep a watch out for very harsh polemic which may have a negative effect on your spiritual growth. I know of several good people who innocently slipped right out of the Church because they embraced an extreme criticism of the Church from the SSPX (and just took it a little farther than the SSPX does). So, if you’re mindful of the potential danger (the same, perhaps worse, danger exists in liberal “authorized” parishes so it’s not confined to traditional sites), you’ll be fine.

On the other hand, look at the number of baptized Catholic, raised in any parish and see how many do NOT attend nor care one iota about any Catholic teachings. Also, see the number of questionable statements by priests in “good standing”.

 

[reggieM]

On the other hand, look at the number of baptized Catholic, raised in any parish and see how many do NOT attend nor care one iota about any Catholic teachings. Also, see the number of questionable statements by priests in “good standing”.

Yes, it’s easy to overlook all of that because it is considered “normal”.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

The obvious schism should supply all anyone who is true to the Magisterium, would need to know.

Obvious schism?

No.
It’s just as erroneous to say they are in full communion.

But schism is not what is currently the situation. The fact is tomorrow I can travel to the sspx chapel for confession. By permission of the pope. Something he couldn’t do with a schismatic group…

 

[corsair]

I used to attend the SSPX back in the early days (70’s - 80’s) until 1988. I then agonized my way back to the establishment church. In 2008 we finally got a monthly TLM that lasted for about 4 1/2 years. Went through 3 priests in that time. They were always being transferred. Then in 2012 we got a retired priest weekly in a rented church for the TLM. In 2015 we got the FSSP, with 2 priests.

Yes, all along my journey I met Catholics of all types. Mushy loving wimps, wild eyed radicals, you name it I’ve seen them. The worst bunch were those that came down from CMRI. Couldn’t even hardly converse with them without a little verbal combat.

Still with the FSSP, even though they have a few faults. If push came to shove, I could return to the SSPX with no qualms.

 

[commenter]

Obvious schism?

No.
It’s just as erroneous to say they are in full communion.

But schism is not what is currently the situation. The fact is tomorrow I can travel to the sspx chapel for confession. By permission of the pope. Something he couldn’t do with a schismatic group…

There is much that we have permission to do, that is not the most prudent choice. If someone is swimming in risky waters, the lifeguard may well throw him a lifeline, just in case, while he is there. That does not mean swimming in the risky waters is equally recommended as the safe waters would be.

The pope has also told pastors they should reach out to couples living together outside marriage, to offer what pastoral care that they can. This does not equate to the pope saying all family situations are therefore equally wholesome. The pope is hoping the couple will change, but in any event, the Church still loves them.

A doctor may recommend patients who still smoke should take Vitamin C, and other precautions. This does not mean he thinks continuing to smoke to be an equally healthy option as quitting.

Years ago I was leader of a Catholic Charismatic prayer group that had gotten much smaller. I longed for the full charismatic type of gathering, so I sometimes attended the Assembly of God service, in addition to Mass on Sunday. One day 2 young Catholic ladies who knew me as leader of the prayer group, saw me there. These ladies did not have the theological background I had, and they were leaning towards joining the Assembly of God exclusively. Their seeing **me **there helped confirm that choice, I later learned.

When you go to the SSPX (just for the service, of course) you may be influencing someone else, priest or layperson, in ways you do not know, to make a bad decision, or cancel a good decision.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Obvious schism?

No.
It’s just as erroneous to say they are in full communion.

But schism is not what is currently the situation. The fact is tomorrow I can travel to the sspx chapel for confession. By permission of the pope. Something he couldn’t do with a schismatic group…

You could also do the same and confess to various Orthodox clergy depending on the Orthodox and your particular situation - by permission of the Pope.

 

[Jestersage]

Years ago I was leader of a Catholic Charismatic prayer group that had gotten much smaller. I longed for the full charismatic type of gathering, so I sometimes attended the Assembly of God service, in addition to Mass on Sunday. One day 2 young Catholic ladies who knew me as leader of the prayer group, saw me there. These ladies did not have the theological background I had, and they were leaning towards joining the Assembly of God exclusively. Their seeing **me **there helped confirm that choice, I later learned.

I see. Thanks for the warning. Nonetheless, sometimes the problem had been teh magisterium – the past is too corrupt, giving rise to Savarnorola and then Martin Luther. Now it’s being too liberal. Who knows what will comes out of it.

 

[DMIMS]

If I’m wrong, please let me know. Pope St Pius X warned against Modernism. You can research and you’ll find that from Vatican 2 on the Church has suffered greatly. There is proof that Freemasonry has been infiltrating the Vatican for many years; it’s called New World Order and One World Religion. The Traditional Latin Mass is legal; I forget which pope, but around the 6th century a pope said that the Mass could not be changed, period.
I believe it was Paul VI that changed the missal, but left the older one alone, he had no choice. To understand the problems of Vatican II, see - Fr Gregory Hesse, a Canon lawyer and Fr Krammer, The Fatima Center. Both on You Tube. There will be explanations about SSPX. Blessings, and God bless all Catholics