Question RE: Veiling

[dixieagle]

Well, personally, I think it does seem like a bit of a moral dilemma when the crowd you’re around are hostile towards it. That’s the only reason I could think of why asking would be prudent.

In a way I’m very sad I’m coming into the Church during a time when veiling is not the norm. I think it would have been awesome to see a Church full of veiled heads.

Even way back in the 50s and 60s, I NEVER saw a “Church full of veiled heads.” Everyone - with the exception of a couple elderly Italian ladies - wore hats of some sort in our parish. Chapel “veils” (just round, doily-like pieces of lacy material) were generally reserved for quick Church visits and the school Masses the whole student body attended (though our school uniform had matching beanies and berets that we generally wore.)

 

[Indyann]

Well, personally, I think it does seem like a bit of a moral dilemma when the crowd you’re around are hostile towards it. That’s the only reason I could think of why asking would be prudent.

In a way I’m very sad I’m coming into the Church during a time when veiling is not the norm. I think it would have been awesome to see a Church full of veiled heads.

If you are sad to not see a Church full of veiled heads, brace yourself dear,you are in for a life of devestation.

Whether to cover your head or not, is not even a blip on the radar screen of problems in the Church.

I hope the seeds of your faith are sown in better soil than to be sad because veiling is not the norm.

 

[CEM5]

Would it be appropriate/advisable to ask the Father’s permission prior to veiling in a parish where NO females cover their heads (even the Sister’s are uncovered)?

I ask because in a group where veiling/covering is not the norm, a single female veiling could be seen A: as the veiler attempting to set herself above her peers, B: as an act of defiance against her peers, C: attention seeking… etc. etc. etc. Basically it can be a very jarring and, yes, even upsetting thing for a group that’s used to uncovered heads.

So, would it be proper form to approach the Father first. Further, if he WERE to say ‘no, please don’t wear a veil’, would it then be inappropriate for the said female to wear her veil regardless?

This is all hypothetical. I’m just thinking, that’s what I do.

HI Nicky,

It could just be simply that the lady in question is old fashioned and accustomed to this old tradition in the Church.

I would just let it be. Bottom line: this custom is not harmful and is not harming anyone, and the main thing is, is that this lady is attending.

My question: Why does it bother anyone so much as to make an issue of it?

blessings,

 

[AnneElliot]

Well, personally, I think it does seem like a bit of a moral dilemma when the crowd you’re around are hostile towards it.

Do you know for a fact they are hostile towards veiling? How do you know this?

 

[floresco]

Do you know for a fact they are hostile towards veiling? How do you know this?

When a person makes a comment about veiling being done by women who are “holier-than-thou” it is fair to say that the person is hostile. When a woman says " I don’t need to veil because I have a real relationship with Christ that does not depend on externals" I think it fair to say she is hostile. I have seen these sorts of comments many times online, so it does not seem strange to me when posters report encountering or anticipating hostility.

 

[AnneElliot]

When a person makes a comment about veiling being done by women who are “holier-than-thou” it is fair to say that the person is hostile. When a woman says " I don’t need to veil because I have a real relationship with Christ that does not depend on externals" I think it fair to say she is hostile. I have seen these sorts of comments many times online, so it does not seem strange to me when posters report encountering or anticipating hostility.

I’m sorry if you have encountered such attitudes… but I certainly never have. In fact, no one has ever even seemed to notice whether my head is covered or not. Irrespective of whether I’m at a TLM or Novus Ordo parish (or Byzantine liturgy).

 

[reaganjn]

i am a new convert and want to wear a veil but no one else during the mass time i attend wears one. this morning i went to the 830 am mass and saw one woman wearing a veil and i thought it was beautiful…and she looked beautiful as well wearing it. it was a mantilla the color of it was light blue.

 

[Phemie]

Even way back in the 50s and 60s, I NEVER saw a “Church full of veiled heads.” Everyone - with the exception of a couple elderly Italian ladies - wore hats of some sort in our parish. Chapel “veils” (just round, doily-like pieces of lacy material) were generally reserved for quick Church visits and the school Masses the whole student body attended (though our school uniform had matching beanies and berets that we generally wore.)

My experience was the same as yours, most girls and women wore hats to church; those who didn’t have hats wore kerchiefs. Then came the little triangular piece of fabric with ties which is what I usually wore until we stopped covering our heads. Mantillas started showing up in my parish in the late 60s but only a few of the high school girls wore those.

 

[dixieagle]

My experience was the same as yours, most girls and women wore hats to church; those who didn’t have hats wore kerchiefs. Then came the little triangular piece of fabric with ties which is what I usually wore until we stopped covering our heads. Mantillas started showing up in my parish in the late 60s but only a few of the high school girls wore those.

I well remember going to shop for new Easter or winter hats. In Boston, where I grew up, the winter hats, especially, served a very practical purpose, as well as fulfilling the requirement of those days; our ears would have frozen without something covering them!!!

I understand the desire of more traditional Catholics to return to the practice of wearing something on one’s head; it’s the “veil” thing that still escapes me, as mantillas, chapel veils, etc., were worn only by a very small percentage of parishioners (the elderly Italian ladies), or simply because it was easy to keep a lacy thing folded in your pocket or purse for an unexpected visit to church. A certain romanticizing of “veiling” on the part of some seems to have emerged, as actual veils hadn’t been the norm for a very long time.

 

[aicirt]

I can’t tell if you’re serious or kidding. Basically, the loss of the immemorial custom of women covering their heads at Mass was the product of the whole spirit of Vatican II schmatza, a combination of ignorance (on the part of the majority) and feminists with an agenda (on the part of a few). At this point I personally think that it is still binding, but that trying to force adherence to the practice would not be prudent. But there are many individual women who are returning to the traditional practice and ultimately I think it will come back “on its own” as it were.

I’m not kidding. What feminists? They certainly weren’t in my parish. We wore head coverings and never thought a thing about it. If the priest stood up and said he wants us to wear them, I’d wear one.

From my point of veiw 40 plus years ago, it was the parish priests who changed things. The laity weren’t asking for it. The statues were fine as was the altar rail etc. No feminists were picketing the churches I attended demanding not to wear head coverings. And according to that article cited on this board, we’re suppose to wear head coverings. If this is what matters, then the priests should stand up and say so. They weren’t clear 40 years ago so they need to be clear now.

 

[aicirt]

Even way back in the 50s and 60s, I NEVER saw a “Church full of veiled heads.” Everyone - with the exception of a couple elderly Italian ladies - wore hats of some sort in our parish. Chapel “veils” (just round, doily-like pieces of lacy material) were generally reserved for quick Church visits and the school Masses the whole student body attended (though our school uniform had matching beanies and berets that we generally wore.)

I never saw it either. We wore hats. And the veil wasn’t some religious thing. It was fashion started by Jackie O. I don’t know where this fascination with the mantilla began. Hats were the thing. “In Your Easter Bonnet”…everyone had one. It wasnt’ the Easter veil.

 

[aicirt]

Well, personally, I think it does seem like a bit of a moral dilemma when the crowd you’re around are hostile towards it. That’s the only reason I could think of why asking would be prudent.

In a way I’m very sad I’m coming into the Church during a time when veiling is not the norm. I think it would have been awesome to see a Church full of veiled heads.

Veiling was never the norm. Please tell me where you got this idea. My grandparents were born in 1875…they wore hats. Maybe when you came over on the boat, they might have pulled the shawl over their heads going to Church but they didn’t veil. When in history did all women veil?

 

[Charlotte1776]

I starting wearing a veil to mass after my husband took me to a Latin Mass one time and I was one of the the only ones not wearing one. He said he forgot to warn me that women are expected to wear a veil at the Latin Mas. I looked it up online and found out there are many great reasons to cover your head, and the Bible actually commands women to cover their heads in Church - and as a former sola scriptura believing evangelical fundamentalist that had an impact on me. I am a very shy and self-concious person so I was a little nervous about it, but I am not the only one who wears a veil at my parish so it makes it easier. Hopefully by wearing one I can give someone else the confidence to wear one too if they choose. I don’t think it is something you need the priest’s permission to do.

 

[aicirt]

I do it because I want to. I pick and choose who can or cannot see my hair.

Miz

Fine. Just wanted to make clear that the Church has NO objection to a woman showing her hair. Orthodox Jews, Muslims, and Amish ect. do. We don’t. I believe some Orthodox Jewish women are required, after marriage, to shave their heads and wear wigs.

 

[Elene]

There is a middle ground you could consider, which is partially veiling. You basically start out with something like a lace headband, and then, if you feel like it, you could transition to a garland, which leads into a chapel veil, and so on. This way you begin slowly covering more and more of your head as time goes on.

 

[Phemie]

I believe some Orthodox Jewish women are required, after marriage, to shave their heads and wear wigs.

I don’t think so. IIRC, some women choose to wear wigs as a way to cover their own hair when they’re not with family. But then again, I should admit that I learned most of what I know of Orthodox Judaism from Faye Kellerman’s Peter Decker detective novels.

 

[jeanannemarie]

I well remember going to shop for new Easter or winter hats. In Boston, where I grew up, the winter hats, especially, served a very practical purpose, as well as fulfilling the requirement of those days; our ears would have frozen without something covering them!!!

I understand the desire of more traditional Catholics to return to the practice of wearing something on one’s head; it’s the “veil” thing that still escapes me, as mantillas, chapel veils, etc., were worn only by a very small percentage of parishioners (the elderly Italian ladies), or simply because it was easy to keep a lacy thing folded in your pocket or purse for an unexpected visit to church. A certain romanticizing of “veiling” on the part of some seems to have emerged, as actual veils hadn’t been the norm for a very long time.

I have noticed that you have posted these thoughts before and have decided to comment. Why does it matter what everyoneused** to do? People are using mantillas now and they are much handier than a hat, as they can be kept it the purse. When it gets cold, I will probably use hats, too. Many things today are improved and different than they used to be. A woman who wants to cover her head with a mantilla should do so. I do. So far no one else in the parish has shown interest in following suit, but I know I have support from many females on this forum even if I have never met them in person. And when I get a little self-conscious about going it alone, I remember these posts. The mantillas are beautiful and I see no reason that one has to have some legitimate heritage to wear one.

 

[dixieagle]

]I have noticed that you have posted these thoughts before and have decided to comment.

Yes, I have.

Why does it matter what everyoneused** to do?

Because I would think that - to traditional Catholic women - it would be significant to know just what the tradition actually was; in the U.S., for the last couple hundred years, it was hats, rather than veils.

People are using mantillas now and they are much handier than a hat, as they can be kept it the purse. When it gets cold, I will probably use hats, too. Many things today are improved and different than they used to be.

Indeed they are. Fashions change, customs change, norms change.

 

[rben20]

Just do it. Why do you have think so much into it? You are veiling in honor of being in the presence of our Lord. There is nothing else to it.

Would it be appropriate/advisable to ask the Father’s permission prior to veiling in a parish where NO females cover their heads (even the Sister’s are uncovered)?

I ask because in a group where veiling/covering is not the norm, a single female veiling could be seen A: as the veiler attempting to set herself above her peers, B: as an act of defiance against her peers, C: attention seeking… etc. etc. etc. Basically it can be a very jarring and, yes, even upsetting thing for a group that’s used to uncovered heads.

So, would it be proper form to approach the Father first. Further, if he WERE to say ‘no, please don’t wear a veil’, would it then be inappropriate for the said female to wear her veil regardless?

This is all hypothetical. I’m just thinking, that’s what I do.

 

[Aramis]

I remember, right up until I started serving in about 1978, having to look past “auntie” Ruth’s large, flamboyant hats, and other ladies’ (usually much smaller) hats. Ruth would often wear hats in the 2’ to 3’ diameter range… usually matching her outfit. When she would read, she’d wear a smaller one.

Many of the ladies wore rather large hats, but Ruth was wearing one of the larger. Her daughter usually wore a white mesh hat, tho’ sometimes a scarf or mantilla.

Many of the Eskimo and Athabascans wore scarves or hoods. Including Deacon Bill’s wife. (Alaska had married deacons amongst the Yupiq since the early 70’s, by indult from Pope Paul VI… and Deacon Bill was in the first class… his duties as Native Chief, and in the ANCSA issues, moved him to Anchorage… He was the Mentor Deacon to my Dad’s class… the first of married non-Yupiq Men in Anchorage.) reference

It just was normal for women to cover their heads with hats, scarves, or lace. It was still common for a majority to do so in the mid 80’s…

And in the Ruthenian Catholic parish I now belong to, about 1/3 wear something. A couple mantillas, several chapel veils, several in small brimmed hats, at least one in a scarf (tho often more), and one often in a largish bow (Not a young lady, at that!).