Question RE: Veiling

[aicirt]

I have noticed that you have posted these thoughts before and have decided to comment. Why does it matter what everyoneused** to do? People are using mantillas now and they are much handier than a hat, as they can be kept it the purse. When it gets cold, I will probably use hats, too. Many things today are improved and different than they used to be. A woman who wants to cover her head with a mantilla should do so. I do. So far no one else in the parish has shown interest in following suit, but I know I have support from many females on this forum even if I have never met them in person. And when I get a little self-conscious about going it alone, I remember these posts. The mantillas are beautiful and I see no reason that one has to have some legitimate heritage to wear one.

There’s this thing about “veiling” that I object to. We never “veiled”. I don’t know where this orginiated because women were not veiled. I get the feeling that some think that this is the way it was back when. When was when? Those of us who had to cover our heads, wore hats. Then the little chapel dolies came about mostly for girls who were going to Mass before parochial school. Then the mantilla. And in an emegency you stuck a Kleenex on your head and borrowed a bobby pin from your friend. When you left chuch, you removed the covering unless you looked absolutely fetching in the hat or it was cold. Then it stayed on.

Lady previously posted that she covers her hair all the time only allowing certain people to see it. Well, whatever but that is not Catholic. We all know everyone has hair. She’s older and I don’t know where that started with her.

There are also younger women who have posted on this subject doing the same thing. Have all kinds of scarfs you can buy to wrap your head up. Personally, looks like you’re from the Middle East just off the boat and I would never guess that the woman is Catholic. Actually, the sites selling those headcoverings are made for Jews. Fine. I’ve seen those headcoverings and I immediately classify the woman as a Jew. Their custom, not ours.

And then there are some men who have posted re.“veiling” who give lots of Bibical passages justifying a woman covering her head/hair all of the time. And when I’ve read their postings, I came away thinking there’s a control issue here and I didn’t appreciate it nor should any woman. There are many things in the Bible that were once done…like ritual bathing for women…which are not done now. I’m asking that you not get carried away.

Want to cover your head for the Presence of God in Church, wonderful. But there is noting wrong with your hair which is a gift from God and the Church has never said you must hide your hair. There was nothing in the Qu’ran about the canvas prison some Muslim women find themselves in either. Let’s not walk that path. Be vigilant.

 

[Elene]

Lady previously posted that she covers her hair all the time only allowing certain people to see it. Well, whatever but that is not Catholic. We all know everyone has hair. She’s older and I don’t know where that started with her.

So the nuns and religious sisters who all veiled prior to the 1960s weren’t being Catholic when they covered their hair? Women throughout the centuries have covered their hair outside of the home. My mother never left the house without a scarf on her head. Take that log out of your eye. Your judgmental attitude towards women who veil is what isn’t Catholic here.

 

[zab]

I remember, right up until I started serving in about 1978, having to look past “auntie” Ruth’s large, flamboyant hats, and other ladies’ (usually much smaller) hats. Ruth would often wear hats in the 2’ to 3’ diameter range… usually matching her outfit. When she would read, she’d wear a smaller one.

Many of the ladies wore rather large hats, but Ruth was wearing one of the larger. Her daughter usually wore a white mesh hat, tho’ sometimes a scarf or mantilla.

Many of the Eskimo and Athabascans wore scarves or hoods. Including Deacon Bill’s wife. (Alaska had married deacons amongst the Yupiq since the early 70’s, by indult from Pope Paul VI… and Deacon Bill was in the first class… his duties as Native Chief, and in the ANCSA issues, moved him to Anchorage… He was the Mentor Deacon to my Dad’s class… the first of married non-Yupiq Men in Anchorage.) reference

It just was normal for women to cover their heads with hats, scarves, or lace. It was still common for a majority to do so in the mid 80’s…

And in the Ruthenian Catholic parish I now belong to, about 1/3 wear something. A couple mantillas, several chapel veils, several in small brimmed hats, at least one in a scarf (tho often more), and one often in a largish bow (Not a young lady, at that!).

I remember the big hat ladies. We had a few in my hometown parish in Southeast Missouri. And like you said, it was difficult for anyone, let alone a little tyke, to see around them. Sometimes it seemed to be a competition of who was going to have the biggest hat and what decoration was going to be on the brim next. Flowers were common but I seem to recall seeing a bird’s nest on one. I also remember the Easter bonnets. My mom bought new hats for my sisters and me for Easter in the 1950’s. At school, I wore a scarf to Mass. And then came Jackie Kennedy and the fad and convenience of the mantillas as well as the small circular chapel veils that could easily fit in your pocket or purse (and on top of a bouffant hairdo). These were popular when I was in jr high and high school. The fad of the mantilla lasted longer than the pillbox hat. But as I recall- by the time that I was in college in the late 60’s the majority of women no longer wore head covering in church. Thanks for sharing your rememberance of the Ruthenian Catholic parish in Alaska. Apparently women were wearing head covering a lot longer there than in the rest of the country.

 

[dixieagle]

So the nuns and religious sisters who all veiled prior to the 1960s weren’t being Catholic when they covered their hair? Women throughout the centuries have covered their hair outside of the home. My mother never left the house without a scarf on her head. Take that log out of your eye. Your judgmental attitude towards women who veil is what isn’t Catholic here.

The veils worn by the good sisters were, in large part, vestiges of the everyday dress of medieval peasant women, and were typical of what was worn when the various orders were started. (The “cornette” originally worn by the Daughters of Charity was just the headdress worn by peasant women on the Ile de France to keep the sun out of their eyes when in the fields.) Of course the pre-1960s sisters were “being Catholic”; headcoverings were required at the time, and the religious orders simply hadn’t changed their type of headcovering.

What aicirt was expressing, I believe, was the same bemusement that I share at all the talk of “veiling” as if pre-1960s Catholic women (and I speak of the US) typically wore veils, and that veiling today is simply recapturing that tradition. We had not - for hundreds of years - worn veils, and veils themselves were never required - just a headcovering; in our culture, it was usually a hat.

A certain romanticization of “veiling” seems to have taken place that - to my mind - is simply baffling. When I hear young Catholic women eager to wear actual hijabs (and refer to them that way) or cover their hair all the time, I wonder what’s up, as those are NOT lay Catholic traditions or practices. As I have stated in other threads, my view - as a cradle Catholic woman who’s been around since the 50s - is that headcovering had its time and place, and no longer has “normative value”. I don’t believe that God, the angels or anyone else is offended by my hair.

At the same time, I believe that women who choose to cover their heads in church are devout and reverent, and that respecting an old custom is admirable. Let’s just not assign undue significance to the practice.

 

[lizaanne]

Would it be appropriate/advisable to ask the Father’s permission prior to veiling in a parish where NO females cover their heads (even the Sister’s are uncovered)?

It is none of your priest’s business what you wear on your head at Mass as long as you are being respectful, reverent, and modest.

~Liza

 

[zab]

It is none of your priest’s business what you wear on your head at Mass as long as you are being respectful, reverent, and modest.

~Liza

…for uncovered heads, too?

 

[lizaanne]

…for uncovered heads, too?

Your point?

~Liza

 

[nickybr38]

Hot topic?

I’d just like to respond quickly to a few comments.

1st. I do think it’s sad that so many women are not covering their heads. That doesn’t mean I’ll be devastated by other issues the Church is facing, it just means I see the small details as well as the large.

2nd. At the front of our Church is a statue of Mary… and I have to tell you her veiled head (yes, VEILED, not with lace however) is the most beautiful thing I’ve ever seen.

3rd. Just because veiled heads were NOT the custom in YOUR town/parish/country does NOT mean it was not the custom elsewhere.

 

[zab]

It is none of your priest’s business what you wear on your head at Mass as long as you are being respectful, reverent, and modest.

~Liza

…for uncovered heads, too?

Your point?

~Liza

It is not being rude or judgemental to wonder why there is a growing interest in veiling today and to share rememberances of headcovering from the past. And that was the accusation that proceeded your post as well as responses to that accusation. But you are right, It is not the priest’s business what she wears on her head, nor it is anybody’s business whether a woman chooses not to cover her head in this day.

 

[Aramis]

I remember the big hat ladies. We had a few in my hometown parish in Southeast Missouri. And like you said, it was difficult for anyone, let alone a little tyke, to see around them. Sometimes it seemed to be a competition of who was going to have the biggest hat and what decoration was going to be on the brim next. Flowers were common but I seem to recall seeing a bird’s nest on one. I also remember the Easter bonnets. My mom bought new hats for my sisters and me for Easter in the 1950’s. At school, I wore a scarf to Mass. And then came Jackie Kennedy and the fad and convenience of the mantillas as well as the small circular chapel veils that could easily fit in your pocket or purse (and on top of a bouffant hairdo). These were popular when I was in jr high and high school. The fad of the mantilla lasted longer than the pillbox hat. But as I recall- by the time that I was in college in the late 60’s the majority of women no longer wore head covering in church. Thanks for sharing your rememberance of the Ruthenian Catholic parish in Alaska. Apparently women were wearing head covering a lot longer there than in the rest of the country.

I switched to the Ruthenian parish in the fall of 1988. Those hat stats are CURRENT, not mid 70’s!

And I still see about 2% of women in hats at local Roman parishes. And about 1/10th of them are big hat ladies, still. (More like 5% of daily mass…)

 

[lizaanne]

It is not being rude or judgemental to wonder why there is a growing interest in veiling today and to share rememberances of headcovering from the past. And that was the accusation that proceeded your post as well as responses to that accusation. But you are right, It is not the priest’s business what she wears on her head, nor it is anybody’s business whether a woman chooses not to cover her head in this day.

You have me completely baffled. I never said anything about being rude or judgmental (though I think that the ability to judge is what separates us from the animals, that is another discussion), nor did I say anything about accusations that proceeded my post.

I still don’t get your point. I answered the OP’s question, that’s all.

~Liza

 

[zab]

You have me completely baffled. I never said anything about being rude or judgmental (though I think that the ability to judge is what separates us from the animals, that is another discussion), nor did I say anything about accusations that proceeded my post.

I still don’t get your point. I answered the OP’s question, that’s all.

~Liza

I never said that you did say anything about being rude or judgemental. I gather that you weren’t following the previous conversation of other posters. And that was the conversation that I was referring too.

 

[dixieagle]

Hot topic?

I’d just like to respond quickly to a few comments.

1st. I do think it’s sad that so many women are not covering their heads. That doesn’t mean I’ll be devastated by other issues the Church is facing, it just means I see the small details as well as the large.

Why sad? No reason to be. If Holy Mother Church thought it was a significant issue, I am confident there would be an official pronouncement. However, not only was the requirement left out of the most recent code of canon law, but in Inter Insigniores, 1976, an official letter from the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (dealing with the impossibility of the ordination of women), we have this:

*“But it must be noted that these ordinances, probably inspired by the customs of the period, concern scarcely more than disciplinary practices of minor importance, such as the obligation imposed upon women to wear a veil on their head (1 Cor 11:2-16); such requirements no longer have a normative value.” * Clearly most Catholic women concur, while having no problem with other women continuing to cover their heads, should they wish.

2nd. At the front of our Church is a statue of Mary… and I have to tell you her veiled head (yes, VEILED, not with lace however) is the most beautiful thing I’ve ever seen.

As we also have in our church; Mary is portrayed as she was…a Jewish woman of the first century.

3rd. Just because veiled heads were NOT the custom in YOUR town/parish/country does NOT mean it was not the custom elsewhere.

But we have, for the most part, been discussing the practices of the U.S.

To state it again, plainly… I think it is important to place the practice of covering one’s head in context. There was never a requirement that women veil. The newfound popularity of the practice in certain traditional quarters, and the term “veiling” simply raises some questions in my mind.

Interestingly, I live in a very conservative part of the country, in a most conservative archdiocese, and am a member of a very large parish of many thousands of parishioners. One elderly lady wears a hat, and I have seen a lady visiting from the Philippines wearing a chapel veil; that is it. They don’t get any funny looks, as folks are happy to live and let live, with regard to headgear.

 

[zab]

One of my daughters is a young mother striving to raise her family in the Catholic Faith. She has some new friends who have veiled for years. They grew up attending only the Latin Mass. My daughter has always struggled with vanity. She knows she spends too much time getting ready to go anywhere and sometimes they get to church just in the nick of time, not because of getting the kids ready but because of her primping. On the one hand she thinks that covering her head will help her to be less vain and concerned about how her hair looks. On the other hand, she thinks she will be even more tempted because she will be concerned if her veil or head covering matches what she is wearing and if she will look good in the veil. She knows she can’t escape the temptations to vanity by wearing a veil. But she is reading up on the reasons for veiling and whether or not veiling means the same thing today as it did years ago or if it is a fad that will pass in time. She is prayerfully considering whether or not she should veil.

 

[nickybr38]

Why sad? No reason to be. If Holy Mother Church thought it was a significant issue, I am confident there would be an official pronouncement. However, not only was the requirement left out of the most recent code of canon law, but in Inter Insigniores, 1976, an official letter from the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (dealing with the impossibility of the ordination of women), we have this:

But we have, for the most part, been discussing the practices of the U.S.

Sad because I think it’s a beautiful custom. Again, I am not a veiler (I only veil in private actually). I like my hats in public. It’s just an issue I am curious about, because it’s an issue that is relevant where I live.

I think it’s funny we’re discussing practices in the US when the OP is Canadian. Anyway, where I live (Canada), veiling has never been a norm (in my lifetime - 28 years). The only mention I’ve heard of women who veil were Sisters from a particular rite. Although they no longer cover.

So, when a lady (like my sister) walks into a Church with her lovely scarves covering her head the reactions she gets are most curious (she did have one lady try to talk her out of covering her head - apparently covering is not something ‘nice’ girls do… or some such thing). Not everyone reacts the same way, of course, I was just curious if things that spark such controversy should be passed by the leader of the parish and I have my answer.

I didn’t intend to spark a whole discussion on whether or not veiling itself is necessary. Just wondering if controversial actions should be passed by the Father. That’s all! And I know there are those here who cannot FATHOM veiling being controversial (and I use the term veiling VERY loosely to mean covering with scarves/veils/hats) but in some parishes it IS.

 

[nickybr38]

One of my daughters is a young mother striving to raise her family in the Catholic Faith. She has some new friends who have veiled for years. They grew up attending only the Latin Mass. My daughter has always struggled with vanity. She knows she spends too much time getting ready to go anywhere and sometimes they get to church just in the nick of time, not because of getting the kids ready but because of her primping. On the one hand she thinks that covering her head will help her to be less vain and concerned about how her hair looks. On the other hand, she thinks she will be even more tempted because she will be concerned if her veil or head covering matches what she is wearing and if she will look good in the veil. She knows she can’t escape the temptations to vanity by wearing a veil. But she is reading up on the reasons for veiling and whether or not veiling means the same thing today as it did years ago or is it a fad that will pass in time. She is prayerfully considering whether or not she should veil.

I DO think God calls some to veil. The reasons why aren’t important, what IS important is that we do as we are called. The question is… is it God calling or something else? So that’s why it is good to approach these things prayerfully. The ladies I know who veil (one is Catholic, the other is not) are not prideful in the sense that they think they’re beautiful, or that they fuss over their appearance, but they are prideful in other ways.

 

[dixieagle]

Sad because I think it’s a beautiful custom. Again, I am not a veiler (I only veil in private actually). I like my hats in public. It’s just an issue I am curious about, because it’s an issue that is relevant where I live.

I think it’s funny we’re discussing practices in the US when the OP is Canadian. Anyway, where I live (Canada), veiling has never been a norm (in my lifetime - 28 years). The only mention I’ve heard of women who veil were Sisters from a particular rite. Although they no longer cover.

So, when a lady (like my sister) walks into a Church with her lovely scarves covering her head the reactions she gets are most curious (she did have one lady try to talk her out of covering her head - apparently covering is not something ‘nice’ girls do… or some such thing). Not everyone reacts the same way, of course, I was just curious if things that spark such controversy should be passed by the leader of the parish and I have my answer.

I didn’t intend to spark a whole discussion on whether or not veiling itself is necessary. Just wondering if controversial actions should be passed by the Father. That’s all! And I know there are those here who cannot FATHOM veiling being controversial (and I use the term veiling VERY loosely to mean covering with scarves/veils/hats) but in some parishes it IS.

Just as no one should pass judgment on women who feel headcovering no longer has any normative value, so should no one (including a priest) prevent a woman from wearing something on her head, either. Her choice entirely.

 

[aicirt]

So the nuns and religious sisters who all veiled prior to the 1960s weren’t being Catholic when they covered their hair? Women throughout the centuries have covered their hair outside of the home. My mother never left the house without a scarf on her head. Take that log out of your eye. Your judgmental attitude towards women who veil is what isn’t Catholic here.

The nuns took vows. They were the only ones “veiled”. Your everyday housewife, with the exception of your Mom, were not walking around with their heads covered in some type of shawl or veil.

Please tell me, and I have asked this before, where you find the Church ever stating that a woman must cover her head when she’s out and about?

And tone down your attitude, please.

 

[aicirt]

Hot topic?

I’d just like to respond quickly to a few comments.

1st. I do think it’s sad that so many women are not covering their heads. That doesn’t mean I’ll be devastated by other issues the Church is facing, it just means I see the small details as well as the large.

2nd. At the front of our Church is a statue of Mary… and I have to tell you her veiled head (yes, VEILED, not with lace however) is the most beautiful thing I’ve ever seen.

3rd. Just because veiled heads were NOT the custom in YOUR town/parish/country does NOT mean it was not the custom elsewhere.

Regarding #3…yes, customs but that is not the Church telling women they had to cover their heads when they went out of the house. We are not peasants living 100 years ago in Europe. We live in the US and it is the 21 century. Fine…no problem is you want to cover your head in Church. And if the priest asked women in my parish to cover, I’d do it. But I’m not walking around all day with my head covered because someone drummed this idea up. It is false modesty. No man is going to lose his thoughts because he sees a head of hair. I think it is very prideful for anyone to suggest that or to think that their hair is so special only certain people can see it. A bare head doesn’t turn heads but put on one of those headcoverings, which are not in the Catholic tradition, and you get attention, the very attention you say you don’t want.

Could you please provide where it was the custom in the last 100 years for Catholic women to cover here in the US?

 

[aicirt]

The veils worn by the good sisters were, in large part, vestiges of the everyday dress of medieval peasant women, and were typical of what was worn when the various orders were started. (The “cornette” originally worn by the Daughters of Charity was just the headdress worn by peasant women on the Ile de France to keep the sun out of their eyes when in the fields.) Of course the pre-1960s sisters were “being Catholic”; headcoverings were required at the time, and the religious orders simply hadn’t changed their type of headcovering.

What aicirt was expressing, I believe, was the same bemusement that I share at all the talk of “veiling” as if pre-1960s Catholic women (and I speak of the US) typically wore veils, and that veiling today is simply recapturing that tradition. We had not - for hundreds of years - worn veils, and veils themselves were never required - just a headcovering; in our culture, it was usually a hat.

A certain romanticization of “veiling” seems to have taken place that - to my mind - is simply baffling. When I hear young Catholic women eager to wear actual hijabs (and refer to them that way) or cover their hair all the time, I wonder what’s up, as those are NOT lay Catholic traditions or practices. As I have stated in other threads, my view - as a cradle Catholic woman who’s been around since the 50s - is that headcovering had its time and place, and no longer has “normative value”. I don’t believe that God, the angels or anyone else is offended by my hair.

At the same time, I believe that women who choose to cover their heads in church are devout and reverent, and that respecting an old custom is admirable. Let’s just not assign undue significance to the practice.

THANK YOU Dixieagle!!!

The hijab is a traditional MUSLIM covering. Why would a Catholic woman ever want to use them as a role model considering that most of their dress restrictions were not even part of the Qu’ran?
The good nuns who taught before Vatican II had some very strong objections to any of us girls showing up in a scarf,. aka the babusha. Looks just like the hijab. If you wanted a dressing down, try wearing one of them to Church. You would have gotten a earful from the nuns. Better a Kleenex on you noggin.