Question regarding Annulments

[zoocrew]

Hi! I am new to this forum and joined primarily because I have a question regarding annulments.

I am Catholic, but was married in Las Vegas about 14 yrs. ago and then got divorced, which was not my choice and a devastating part of my life. Before getting divorced, I had asked a priest about having my marriage recognized by the Church. He refused to speak to me about it and really made me feel horrible. After I got divorced, I was grateful that he behaved the way that he did. It took me over a year to see another priest about getting an annulment and was told that I didn’t need one, since the Church never recognized my first marriage. I needed only to go to confession. I left with relative peace of mind.

I am currently engaged to a man who is not a Catholic. He was married by a justice of the peace to help a friend stay in the U.S. They were NEVER involved romantically in any way, as she was already in a relationship with another man, also here under the radar. My fiance is technically, divorced. However, there was never ANY intent for there to be an actual marriage; the relationship was never “consummated”. I believe this falls under Canon 1101, section 2.

We explained all of this to my priest and were told that HE needs an annulment to the tune of $1000.oo, although the Church is willing to take payments and pick up half the cost and that it could take up to a year. We are both going to be 40 within 6 months and our clocks are ticking. We were also told that I would need an annulment, but that mine would only cost $85.00. Why was I told by another priest that I didn’t need an annulment, but now I do?

I have been trying to sell my fiance on Catholicism and this isn’t helping. My non-Catholic friends have offered their own pastors/ ministers and some of my CathoIic friends have suggested that I just go to another Church and say that we were never married. I asked about getting married outside the Church while the annulment process takes place and having it recognized later-which I now know can and does take place. That didn’t go over too well. I am very upset because I know very well that some priests/ churches are willing to bend the “rules”, while others respond with disgust as if I had asked for something horrible. I could understand if everyone followed the same protocols everywhere, but they don’t and I’m not naive enough to believe that the same rules are applied equally to everyone. I shouldn’t be treated like I’m a terrible person for asking to take the short cut, when I know it’s out there.

So-why do I suddenly need an annulment? Why does he need an annulment, when there was not an actual marriage? Why do the “rules” apply to some and not to all?

I don’t mean to be disrespectful to anyone, I’m just tired of getting the runaround by my own church and honestly, I’m tired of being treated like I’m a terrible person.

 

[Tommy_Joe]

You need to get ahold of your Diocese. They’ll be able to help you more than the priest.

Call them.

If I’ve read correctly, your first marriage might be declared invalid due to “defect of form” because you were married outside the Church.

Until you have that done, you are probably still married.
Don’t fall for the “All you need to do is go to confession” thing,…I was told the very same thing by a liberal priest and was soon remarried. Fourteen years later I found out the truth, and it took over a year to get it all straightened out.

As far as your friend goes, he may still be married also,…the Church recognizes as valid, the marriage of two non-Catholic baptized persons.

The only way you can be sure is to call your Diocese offices and they should put in touch with the office that deals with annulments,…they’ll be able to answer all your questions and get you started in the right direction.

 

[Tommy_Joe]

By the way, I’ve been involved in four annulments and not a single person was charged a penny!

 

[JRKH]

I agree with What Tommy has said. Your best bet is to get in touch with someone who is well versed in the annullment process. Many priests are not. They may mean well, but are just not well enough versed.

In your case, I would the assumption that you are still validly married. Given the information above I’d say you ave a good chance of having the decrees granted. Of course that opinion is worth exactly the cyber-paper it is printed on.

As to cost, I went through the process a year ago and was charged about $350. The explanation I was given is that the cost is designed to help defray the costs, and demonstrate sincerity. The actual costs, on average, I was told is around $2000 for all the paperwork etc. But no one is ever charged that. At least not in this Diocese.

So Get ahold of someone knowledgable as soon as possible and get the paperwork going. A year goes by pretty quick you know.

Peace
James

 

[otjm]

Some of your questions take more room than there really is within this forum. The advice to seek out the diocese is good advice.

As to the money - which offends a lot of people - the Church provides the tribunal for those who need it. However, the tribunal costs money just to function; not an issue about salaries (although if there are lay people working it, someone has to pay their wages), but a very real issue about the costs of offices, paper, fax machines, copiers, and anything else that goes into running an office. It is not a money maker for any diocese; it is a money loser as it costs more to run than anyone ever comes even close to paying. Your future intended has a long case ahead of them, which is why there is a higher associated cost.

Your case is one of form, from the facts you outlined; a Catholic is required by Church law to have their marriage witnessed officially by a priest. Failure to do so is fairly quick and easy to prove and is a very short case.

As to your intended: Assuming all the facts are such as you indicate, the Church still takes a very high approach to marriage: between to baptized non-Catholics it is still considered to be prima facia a sacrament, because marriage is a sacrament that the two parties “confect” (cause) by their promise; if Catholic there is the additional requirement that it be witnessed by a priest. If they are not Catholic, that does not apply, and it is presumed they are just as sacramentally married as if they were both Catholic and it had been witnessed properly.

There may be more facts about your intended that might possibly result in a quicker case, perhaps not; but unless one is a Canon lawyer, or deals with decrees of nullity on a regular, on-going basis, the ins and outs of Canon law may not all be properly addressed.

They (your intended) did not intentionally put themselves in this position with the Church; they did what they did for whatever reasons they did it, but it was not done with malice. Some times there is a feeling that the Church is out to punish them, or considers them to be second class citizens. That is not the case; it is rather that the Church looks on marriage so seriously (when often, others don’t have that same level of seriousness), and when one runs into the Church’s seriousness, it is sometimes misjudged.

Your clock is ticking whether or not you go through this issue as the Church would have you do. Ultimately, I would hope that you could come to an understanding of marriage as the Church understands it, go through the process, and grow closer to God and his Church. It is not easy, particularly when decisions that were made long ago, in different circumstances, come back to cause conflict in our lives today. Stay the course; keep yourself and your intended in prayer, and God bless.

 

[Tommy_Joe]

Your clock is ticking whether or not you go through this issue as the Church would have you do. Ultimately, I would hope that you could come to an understanding of marriage as the Church understands it, go through the process, and grow closer to God and his Church. It is not easy, particularly when decisions that were made long ago, in different circumstances, come back to cause conflict in our lives today. Stay the course; keep yourself and your intended in prayer, and God bless.

What a beautiful statement.

Zoocrew, if I may; as I said, I was involved in four annulments at the age of 54. When I found out that I was going to have to go through what seemed to be not only a mountain of paperwork but a lot of embarrassment, I was, to say the least, sad and downhearted. But a seminarian friend of mine suggested that perhaps God was telling me that I was finally old and wise enough to understand what going on, and was mature enough to handle it.

After thinking about that for a while, I figured he might be right. So I started the paperwork.

During the year long process I was not allowed to receive any of the sacraments but was encouraged to continue going to Mass and keep saying my prayers. Although it broke my heart to not be able to take part in the sacraments, I managed to find a couple devotionals to temporarily replace them.
I used a lot of my time while waiting for everything to be done, to read as much as I could in order to learn about not only the Sacrament of Marriage, but also divorce and what the Church says about it and what the Bible teaches us about the bond between a man and a woman.
To make a long story short, the experience of going through what I thought would be a nightmare, turned out to be the best learning experience of my life. I now have more love for the Catholic Church than I ever would have thought possible.

My seminarian friend was correct. It was my time.

 

[Yerusalyim]

You were misinformed. You need a Simple Declaration of Nullity for lack of form for your previous marriage. Depending on your fiance’s religious background, that might be all he needs as well…ESPECIALLY since the marriage, by your telling (or my reading) of it…was not consumated. His situation is a little trickier than yours because of not being Catholic…talk to the tribunal at the Diocese, they’ll have the right answers. $1000 for an annullment sounds steep to me…I paid $450.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

We explained all of this to my priest and were told that HE needs an annulment to the tune of $1000.oo, although the Church is willing to take payments and pick up half the cost and that it could take up to a year. We are both going to be 40 within 6 months and our clocks are ticking. We were also told that I would need an annulment, but that mine would only cost $85.00. Why was I told by another priest that I didn’t need an annulment, but now I do?

I have been trying to sell my fiance on Catholicism and this isn’t helping. My non-Catholic friends have offered their own pastors/ ministers and some of my CathoIic friends have suggested that I just go to another Church and say that we were never married. I asked about getting married outside the Church while the annulment process takes place and having it recognized later-which I now know can and does take place. That didn’t go over too well. I am very upset because I know very well that some priests/ churches are willing to bend the “rules”, while others respond with disgust as if I had asked for something horrible. I could understand if everyone followed the same protocols everywhere, but they don’t and I’m not naive enough to believe that the same rules are applied equally to everyone. I shouldn’t be treated like I’m a terrible person for asking to take the short cut, when I know it’s out there.

So-why do I suddenly need an annulment? Why does he need an annulment, when there was not an actual marriage? Why do the “rules” apply to some and not to all?

I don’t mean to be disrespectful to anyone, I’m just tired of getting the runaround by my own church and honestly, I’m tired of being treated like I’m a terrible person.

Your situation is a simple one, but one that does not have a firm rule as to how to proceed. When a Catholic attempts marriage outside of the Church (“attempts” because if done without dispensation it cannot be valid - as, presumably, in your case), the Church does not favor that union with a presumption of validity. Quite the opposite, actually. It is presumed invalid because nothing short of those dispensations could have made it so. Thus, you don’t need an official declaration of nullity, becuase the Church “knows” such a marriage could not be been valid. STILL, a good-faith investigation must be done to establish the circumstances of your attempted marriage (taking a look at your marriage certificate to see it was not witnessed by a priest with faculties, look through the diocesan archives for any possible dispensation, etc.). Some dioceses require that this short but necessary step be accomplished through a simple but formal process - which it sounds like your diocese must - while others leave it to priests and the honor system to check those facts out. The long and short, though, is that, as I said, you do NOT need a declaration of nullity but you DO need a quick investigation just to make sure things are as you claim so that all parties can move forward with moral certainty.

Things are different, however, with your intended. He, being non-Catholic, is capable of validly marrying in front of a justice of the peace and thus his marriage enjoys a presumption of validity. While that presumption can be overturned (and saying the words without ever intending the marital union would indeed overturn that presumption if things are as you say), it nevertheless requires much more investigation, since declaring a marriage null on grounds other than lack of form means the tribunal needs to investigate for either a defect of intention or a mental defect. Both of those are hard to establish by purely objective criteria (they deal with the subjective inner workings of someone’s mind, after all!), so you have to ask a lot of witnesses questions that would shed light upon his intentions and mental state at the time of the marriage ceremony. His own word is not enough because of the principle “once a liar, always a liar” - he basically claims that he lied when he spoke his wedding vows, so that might indicate to us now that he was willing to lie about something so significant that we shouldn’t so easily trust him now, and if we want reliable testimony about his mental state we’re going to have to corroborate that with people who aren’t confessedly liars. It also might simply indicate that he has latched on to a condition that is hard to verify, knowing that while he did mean the vows we will have a hell of a time trying to sort out fact from fiction in his psyche years ago. Of course, with many if not most people it is simply the truth, but we’re trying to find grounds upon which ministers of the Church can act with moral certainty, so it takes a very diligent investigation.

As for a shortcut, you must understand that the route you are considering is not a matter of getting married and then getting a rubber stamp later. Rather, it is a matter of pretending to get married and then living in sin with someone who is not your spouse until such time as you manage to rectify the situation. The very grounds that render your first, Vegas wedding null, you see, would also render this second marriage outside of the Church null - you wouldn’t actually be getting married, so marital relations with your putative spouse would be gravely sinful, not to mention the possible scandal caused to others by your pretended marriage. The only way to actually get married is to do things on the up and up, even though is going to be far more difficult than anyone looking to get married would ever wish. But at the end you have the consolation of knowing that you are married in the eyes of God, which should hopefully be worth the trouble.

 

[catharina]

What a beautiful statement.

Zoocrew, if I may; as I said, I was involved in four annulments at the age of 54. When I found out that I was going to have to go through what seemed to be not only a mountain of paperwork but a lot of embarrassment, I was, to say the least, sad and downhearted. But a seminarian friend of mine suggested that perhaps God was telling me that I was finally old and wise enough to understand what going on, and was mature enough to handle it.

After thinking about that for a while, I figured he might be right. So I started the paperwork.

During the year long process I was not allowed to receive any of the sacraments but was encouraged to continue going to Mass and keep saying my prayers. Although it broke my heart to not be able to take part in the sacraments, I managed to find a couple devotionals to temporarily replace them.
I used a lot of my time while waiting for everything to be done, to read as much as I could in order to learn about not only the Sacrament of Marriage, but also divorce and what the Church says about it and what the Bible teaches us about the bond between a man and a woman.
To make a long story short, the experience of going through what I thought would be a nightmare, turned out to be the best learning experience of my life. I now have more love for the Catholic Church than I ever would have thought possible.

My seminarian friend was correct. It was my time.

So there is no misunderstanding, if I might add to this:

“During the year long process I was not allowed to receive any of the sacraments but was encouraged to continue going to Mass and keep saying my prayers.”

This very unusual condition - staying away from the Sacraments - had to do with some specific in your own life, such as a new, current “marriage,” and not with the simpler process of being divorced and applying for and awaiting an annulment.

Correct?

 

[Claire_from_DE]

Zoocrew, a friend of mine did the very same thing, married to keep an acquaintance in the U.S. because conditions where she lived in Colombia were very dangerous. He thought of it as saving her life, not lying, but I worried about him getting in trouble with the government as well as what if he wanted to marry later. The church just wants to make sure your fiance isn’t already in a sacramental marriage. Once that is established, he is good to go.

It may take less time than he thinks it will. If his ex-wife was Hispanic there’s a chance she was Catholic and it could be like your situation and be annulled for lack of form.

If your fiance isn’t able to afford the cost of the process, many dioceses will reduce the price or will let him make several payments.

The priest who told you that you didn’t need an annulment may have meant that you just needed to go to confession to come back into the church and receive communion. Any former marriage must be examined if you want to remarry (unless your former husband is now dead).

If you can be patient and wait for both annulments, you won’t be sorry.

 

[Tommy_Joe]

So there is no misunderstanding, if I might add to this:

“During the year long process I was not allowed to receive any of the sacraments but was encouraged to continue going to Mass and keep saying my prayers.”

This very unusual condition - staying away from the Sacraments - had to do with some specific in your own life, such as a new, current “marriage,” and not with the simpler process of being divorced and applying for and awaiting an annulment.

Correct?

You are correct of course, I should have emphasized the fact that due to the statement made by my priest at the time “Well you were never married in the eyes of the Church anyhow, so you’re free to start all over again,” (paraphrasing), I never obtained an annulment before getting remarried. Which put me in a potential state of sin.
So until I could get the annulments necessary to have my present marriage validated I was advised to continue in my prayers and Mass attendance, but to refrain from the Sacraments.