Question regarding Apparitons of Mary?

[Elena321]

I’m not sure if ok(?) to post this here but hopefully it’s ok because the thread is just about general questions/ concerns/discussion surrounding them and not promoting them.

I tend not to believe these things as often it’s “dooms day” stuff but I’m also confused as often they seem to say stuff that’s consistent with Jesus teaching such as compassion,humility etc…?

My questions are:
1.Can even priests be deceived by “false stuff” too or are they excempt?
2.Why the apparitions often show Mary looking as a beautiful young European woman?Often even with “model features”
Ie: wouldn’t she have been looking like Jewish woman?
3.But even if most are baloney,would end “reward” would fallen angels get out of teaching good stuff like compassion and humility etc cause isn’t that against their nature & just doing Jesus’s work anyway?

I have considered that some are based from Psychological causes-eg a person might fabricate a apparition to get love/attention/acknowledgment etc if they feel left out in society etc.
I also considered some might be fabricated due to trying to recieve monetary rewards from visitors etc.
But perhaps some people are getting deceived from a “spiritual sources” too?

I know Catholics arn’t required to believe them,even approved ones,but I’m still curious as to what “bad angels” etc could gain from preaching things such as humility & kindness?

 

[eschator83]

How about selecting a specific Apparition for discussion? It’s hard to imagine without considering the people who witnessed the Apparition. I like the old Mexican who saw Mary on his way to Church. I also like St Andre, who St Joseph told to build a chapel in Montreal. When you are wondering about Miracles, I pray you’ll go to Montreal and see what St Andre’s prayers built, and the incredible wall of crutches and wheel chairs of people who were healed. There are other, similar, walls that you should pray about–Lourdes, Majugorie, I hope others will list more for you. But even more I hope you will pray and search for yourself.

 

[thistle]

How about selecting a specific Apparition for discussion? It’s hard to imagine without considering the people who witnessed the Apparition. I like the old Mexican who saw Mary on his way to Church. I also like St Andre, who St Joseph told to build a chapel in Montreal. When you are wondering about Miracles, I pray you’ll go to Montreal and see what St Andre’s prayers built, and the incredible wall of crutches and wheel chairs of people who were healed. There are other, similar, walls that you should pray about–Lourdes, Majugorie, I hope others will list more for you. But even more I hope you will pray and search for yourself.

Not Medjugorie.

 

[Elena321]

That’s why I kept the discussion in “generals”

 

[fred_conty]

My questions are:
1.Can even priests be deceived by “false stuff” too or are they excempt?

No, anyone can be deceived by apparitions. The devil has at times appeared, and tried to deceive someone. Even dressed as a priest, the devil tried to deceive a saint. That is one reason why we need an objective judgement…that of the church, so we aren’t deceived as well.

2.Why the apparitions often show Mary looking as a beautiful young European woman?Often even with “model features”
Ie: wouldn’t she have been looking like Jewish woman?

Not always, sometimes she looks like the people she is appearing to. And at times even wears clothing that is native to their country. Examples are Our Lady of Guadalupe and our Lady of Siluva. They are pictured here… miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/vatican.html

3.But even if most are baloney,would end “reward” would fallen angels get out of teaching good stuff like compassion and humility etc cause isn’t that against their nature & just doing Jesus’s work anyway?

As somebody once said, the devil will say 99 good things to sneak in 1 evil thing. He feeds us some sweetness to get us to swallow the evil. He will perform miracles to get us to believe in what he is saying. The scripture says that we need to “discern”. Again the church is there for us to do that discernment so we arn’t fooled because as Jesus said of him, “he is the father of lies.”

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[Path_Finder]

Our Lady of Kibeho in Rwanda: pallottines.ie/lady-kibeho-rwanda/

Apparitions happen from the Divine and God created us all.

The Divine can appear to us in any form they care to.

One of the best examples yes, is in a prior post, Our Lady of Guadelupe.

 

[ajecphotos]

I have had doubts about a lot of these apparitions. Doubts about saints saying they have spoken to Mary or Jesus. How can we know it is true? We have to believe what the church believes but even then we are not bound to believe these apparitions etc.

Quite a few saints that i dearly love but still have trouble believing 100% in what they said they saw or heard:

St Padre Pio
St Faustina

To name a couple. I dearly love these 2 but i always have doubts, niggling doubts about what Jesus is reputed to have said to St Faustina!! My name should be Thomas!!! (Sorry St Thomas)

 

[Della]

I recommend an excellent book by Fr. Benedict Groeschel A Still Small Voice. He answers all your questions brilliantly, but in readable language.

Having recommended a book, I’ll still take a stab at your questions:

1.Can even priests be deceived by “false stuff” too or are they excempt?

Well, it’s not up to priests to decide if an apparition/vision/inner locution is of God or not, but yes, they can be deceived. All such phenomena that become public, which the local bishop decides should be investigated, are tested according to set criteria. The Church never declared such things worthy of belief without fully investigating them, starting with any and all natural explanations, including mental illness or demonic possession.

2.Why the apparitions often show Mary looking as a beautiful young European woman?Often even with “model features”
Ie: wouldn’t she have been looking like Jewish woman?

Apparitions are not “revelations” of Mary as she was on earth. They are perceptions of Mary as seen through the eyes of the visionary. There are and will be not further revelations of God to man. Jesus Christ was/is God’s last revelation to man. Apparitions are visions, not revelations, you see. It has been suggested that visionaries see Mary (or she allows them to see her) according to their culture–because she has a special message for that country/culture. This is why Mary appears as an Indian woman at Guadalupe and a blue-eyed European by Bernadette. This is one of the things that Fr. Groeschel covers in his book.

3.But even if most are baloney,would end “reward” would fallen angels get out of teaching good stuff like compassion and humility etc cause isn’t that against their nature & just doing Jesus’s work anyway?

Well, fallen angels aren’t always behind “fake” apparitions. There are many reasons why people might believe they have received some special sighting/locutions besides demonice influence. My own parish had this happen with a woman who believed Mary was giving her daily messages. She had a large following until the bishop investigated and declared that nothing spiritual had happened, much to the disappointment of many, including our pastor at the time because people were seemingly getting so much from them. Once the bishop had made his pronouncement the devotion the woman had started dried up and the parish was none the worse for it.

I have considered that some are based from Psychological causes-eg a person might fabricate a apparition to get love/attention/acknowledgment etc if they feel left out in society etc.
I also considered some might be fabricated due to trying to recieve monetary rewards from visitors etc.
But perhaps some people are getting deceived from a “spiritual sources” too?

It’s possible that there are spiritual forces involved in some of these false phenomena, but they usually comes from natural causes of the kind you cited.

I know Catholics arn’t required to believe them,even approved ones,but I’m still curious as to what “bad angels” etc could gain from preaching things such as humility & kindness?

But how are the visions asking that people achieve those virtues? Through prayer and relying on God’s grace or by human efforts and for self-interest? Besides, most instances of such phenomena aren’t spiritual but merely people having insights–which is fine, but when they claim heavenly origins and their claims become widespread or create a following, it’s then that the bishop usually steps in to determine what is truly going on.

 

[Tenebrae]

Remember, even though an apparition is approved by the Church, we are not required to believe in it. Apparitions are private revelations. Nobody is required to believe in a private revelation.

 

[Elena321]

I recommend an excellent book by Fr. Benedict Groeschel A Still Small Voice. He answers all your questions brilliantly, but in readable language.

Having recommended a book, I’ll still take a stab at…

Well, fallen angels aren’t always behind “fake” apparitions. There are many reasons why people might believe they have received some special sighting/locutions besides demonice influence. My own parish had this happen with a woman who believed Mary was giving her daily messages. She had a large following until the bishop investigated and declared that nothing spiritual had happened, much to the disappointment of many, including our pastor at the time because people were seemingly getting so much from them. Once the bishop had made his pronouncement the devotion the woman had started dried up and the parish was none the worse for it.

It’s possible that there are spiritual forces involved in some of these false phenomena, but they usually comes from natural causes of the kind you cited.

But how are the visions asking that people achieve those virtues? Through prayer and relying on God’s grace or by human efforts and for self-interest? Besides, most instances of such phenomena aren’t spiritual but merely people having insights–which is fine, but when they claim heavenly origins and their claims become widespread or create a following, it’s then that the bishop usually steps in to determine what is truly going on.

I recommend an excellent book by Fr. Benedict Groeschel A Still Small Voice. He answers all your questions brilliantly, but in readable language.

Having recommended a book, I’ll still take a stab at your questions:

Well, it’s not up to priests to decide if an apparition/vision/inner locution is of God or not, but yes, they can be deceived. All such phenomena that become public, which the local bishop decides should be investigated, are tested according to set criteria. The Church never declared such things worthy of belief without fully investigating them, starting with any and all natural explanations, including mental illness or demonic possession.

Apparitions are not “revelations” of Mary as she was on earth. They are perceptions of Mary as seen through the eyes of the visionary. There are and will be not further revelations of God to man. Jesus Christ was/is God’s last revelation to man. Apparitions are visions, not revelations, you see. It has been suggested that visionaries see Mary (or she allows them to see her) according to their culture–because she has a special message for that country/culture. This is why Mary appears as an Indian woman at Guadalupe and a blue-eyed European by Bernadette. This is one of the things that Fr. Groeschel covers in his book.

Well, fallen angels aren’t always behind “fake” apparitions. There are many reasons why people might believe they have received some special sighting/locutions besides demonice influence. My own parish had this happen with a woman who believed Mary was giving her daily messages. She had a large following until the bishop investigated and declared that nothing spiritual had happened, much to the disappointment of many, including our pastor at the time because people were seemingly getting so much from them. Once the bishop had made his pronouncement the devotion the woman had started dried up and the parish was none the worse for it.

It’s possible that there are spiritual forces involved in some of these false phenomena, but they usually comes from natural causes of the kind you cited.

But how are the visions asking that people achieve those virtues? Through prayer and relying on God’s grace or by human efforts and for self-interest? Besides, most instances of such phenomena aren’t spiritual but merely people having insights–which is fine, but when they claim heavenly origins and their claims become widespread or create a following, it’s then that the bishop usually steps in to determine what is truly going on.

Thanks.Thats helpful.
What other options are there apart from either a.A psychological issue B.A person intentionally making it up or C.A person receiving it from spiritual source-good or bad angels.
Are there other options or do those three cover it?

What,in practical terms,would be the difference between relying on Gods grace versus by human efforts?

Also,things like levitation,bilocation etc I don’t get.
For example there’s a woman Maria Esperanza,whom a case for beautification and canonisation has been opened,who claimed to levitate etc.
This case for canonisation confuses me because just from a brief look I can tell “somethjng isn’t right”
I spent enough time with psychics and new age people etc in my younger days that I can see there is nothing that differentiates her from them.
Her demeanour,presence and behaviour are exactly the same.
It seems to me that she is a mix of devout Catholic and “psychic type phenomena”
Like,what purpose would God have to make someone levitate?
What are the fruits,it just seems a “sensational” distraction.
Same goes for bilocation.It has no point unless by being in two locations they are able to teach two people the bible simultaneously lol.
The fruit isn’t of making unbelievers believe because only credulous people would become Christian because someone levitates,to most other “atheists” it would just make Christians look like a bunch of fools.

 

[Della]

Thanks.Thats helpful.
What other options are there apart from either a.A psychological issue B.A person intentionally making it up or C.A person receiving it from spiritual source-good or bad angels.
Are there other options or do those three cover it?

I imagine there are a host of other reasons–as many as there are human beings. There is no way any one person can know all the ways people might receive or think they are receiving divine messages/locutions/visions.

What,in practical terms,would be the difference between relying on Gods grace versus by human efforts?

Also,things like levitation,bilocation etc I don’t get.
For example there’s a woman Maria Esperanza,whom a case for beautification and canonisation has been opened,who claimed to levitate etc.
This case for canonisation confuses me because just from a brief look I can tell “somethjng isn’t right”
I spent enough time with psychics and new age people etc in my younger days that I can see there is nothing that differentiates her from them.
Her demeanour,presence and behaviour are exactly the same.
It seems to me that she is a mix of devout Catholic and “psychic type phenomena”
Like,what purpose would God have to make someone levitate?
What are the fruits,it just seems a “sensational” distraction.
Same goes for bilocation.It has no point unless by being in two locations they are able to teach two people the bible simultaneously lol.
The fruit isn’t of making unbelievers believe because only credulous people would become Christian because someone levitates,to most other “atheists” it would just make Christians look like a bunch of fools.

When a bishop opens investigation into a person’s life it is not a gilt-edged guarantee that they will be canonized. And investigation is conducted for that very reason–to determine if the person’s case should go forward from servant of God to venerable to blessed and finally to saint. The process is thorough and intense. The devil loves to imitate miracles to fool the unwary. But when a bishop orders an investigation all options are looked into, starting with natural explanations as welll as demonic.

As to the importance of various manifestations, we cannot always see/understand what good they might do. St. Padre Pio could biolocate. I remember reading that he appeared to someone in deep distress, giving that person peace in the midst of all his troubles. Such gifts are like dessert–they’re fine in their place, but we are not to seek them nor desire them. The canonized saints who manifested such things met that criteria. In their cases such manifestations were given for various reasons, some of which were for the doubting and unbelievers, no doubt. But the overall witness to Christ in their lives is the reason they were canonized, not because of miracles or spiritual manifestations.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

St Faustina

To name a couple. I dearly love these 2 but i always have doubts, niggling doubts about what Jesus is reputed to have said to St Faustina!! My name should be Thomas!!! (Sorry St Thomas)

Oh yeah, isn’t she the one who had the detailed pictures of purgatory? I don’t know if it was her, but one saint writing (which btw were private writings to their SD’s so really they never wrote it for us in the first place, most of it) had all the sinners categorized and in different sections and stuff – sounded to me a bit like an after-life Krispy Kreme factory.

I don’t remember what it was she wrote, but I do remember she is in my “can’t take her views seriously” category.

Now you know who I think is hard core? St. Teresa of Avila. She’s one I can really give some support to, at least those brief writings of her I’ve seen. She’s actually lived a life where she understands kind of “both sides” of sin. She and St. John of the Cross to me are more in the class of Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee, compared to St. Faustina IMO. :nunchuk:

She may have written better stuff; I’ve never looked for any though.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

She may have written better stuff; I’ve never looked for any though.

OK that time I even noticed myself what a shlub I was being, so I just Googled up a few St. Faustina quotes and I hereby admit that just because I haven’t caught up to some of her stuff, here are a few quotes I can kind of like … a lot, some of them.

Pure Love

Pure love is capable of great deeds, and it is not broken by difficulty or adversity. As it remains strong in the midst of great difficulties, so too it perseveres in the toilsome and drab life of each day. It knows that only one thing is needed to please God: to do even the smallest things out of great love — love, and always love. Pure love never errs. Its light is strangely plentiful. It will not do anything that might displease God. It is ingenious at doing what is more pleasing to God, and no one will equal it. It is happy when it can empty itself and burn like a pure offering. The more it gives of itself, the happier it is. But also, no one can sense dangers from afar as can love; it knows how to unmask and also knows with whom it has to deal.(Diary 140)

Judging Others

I must never judge anyone, but look at others with leniency and at myself with severity. I must refer everything to God and, in my own eyes, recognize myself for what I am: utter misery and nothingness. In suffering, I must be patient and quiet, knowing that everything passes in time.(Diary 253)

Suffering

Suffering is the greatest treasure on earth; it purifies the soul. In suffering, we learn who our true friend is.(Diary 342)

Forgiveness

He who knows how to forgive prepares for himself many graces from God. As often as I look upon the cross, so often will I forgive with all my heart.(Diary 390)

 

[Della]

I have had doubts about a lot of these apparitions. Doubts about saints saying they have spoken to Mary or Jesus. How can we know it is true? We have to believe what the church believes but even then we are not bound to believe these apparitions etc.

The reason we are not bound to believe in apparitions is that they are not part of the revealed truths Christ gave the Apostles–they’re not part of the deposit of faith, as it’s called. They are supplimental phenomena meant to help our faith or challenge our compalcency–like homilies or sacramentals. We don’t have to accept everything said in a homily nor use sacramentals, either but we still have them because they are useful to our faith.

Quite a few saints that i dearly love but still have trouble believing 100% in what they said they saw or heard:

St Padre Pio
St Faustina

To name a couple. I dearly love these 2 but i always have doubts, niggling doubts about what Jesus is reputed to have said to St Faustina!! My name should be Thomas!!! (Sorry St Thomas)

When saint are canonized it does not mean that every word they wrote/said is part of the faith we must believe. All the Church says is that what they said and did was not contrary to the faith and that they were faithful witnesses to Christ. So, if something a saint wrote doesn’t help you, you are free to let it go. This falls under our devotional life. Whatever helps you keep your baptismal vows and grow in the faith is fine. If it doesn’t help you, then you don’t need to believe in it or use it.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

The reason we are not bound to believe in apparitions is that they are not part of the revealed truths Christ gave the Apostles–they’re not part of the deposit of faith, as it’s called. They are supplimental phenomena meant to help our faith or challenge our compalcency–like homilies or sacramentals. We don’t have to accept everything said in a homily nor use sacramentals, either but we still have them because they are useful to our faith.

When saint are canonized it does not mean that every word they wrote/said is part of the faith we must believe. All the Church says is that what they said and did was not contrary to the faith and that they were faithful witnesses to Christ. So, if something a saint wrote doesn’t help you, you are free to let it go. This falls under our devotional life. Whatever helps you keep your baptismal vows and grow in the faith is fine. If it doesn’t help you, then you don’t need to believe in it or use it.

I love this explanation! Thank you!

MS

 

[Della]

I love this explanation! Thank you!

MS

:tiphat: The truth always sets us free. :yup: