Question Regarding Homosexuality

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Did I issue a negative value judgement? I think not, I simply stated that from a biological and evolutionary point of view, homosexual sex is a (yep, I’m gonna use the word!) corruption of the intent of the process. That does not mean much beyond what I said. In other words, my argument can be summed as following:

1. Sexual intercourse is intended for reproduction

2. Homosexual intercourse fails to do this

3. Therefore, it is a corruption of the original intent.

It is up to humans, who have freewill, to decide if that makes homosexual sex immoral. As a Catholic, I know where I stand. As a practicing homosexual, I know where you stand.


In fact, I am really failing to see any kind of value judgment in what I said. A value judgement is defined by Webster’s Online Dictionary as “An assessment that reveals more about the values of the person making the assessment than about the reality of what is assessed.” Wikipedia offers a more indepth view of the subject here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_judgement



Let’s examine the word I used that you don’t seem to like, corruption. Corruption is defined in a number of ways. Notably, it can be used to mean a breakdown from an original state or purpose. No value judgement there and you know it.
You deny that the word “corruption” carries a value judgement? I don’t think you understand the meaning of the word:

Corruption:
  1. the act of corrupting or state of being corrupt.
  2. moral perversion; depravity.
  3. perversion of integrity.
  4. corrupt or dishonest proceedings.
  5. bribery.
  6. debasement, as of language or a text.
  7. a debased form of a word.
  8. putrefactive decay; rottenness.
  9. any corrupting influence or agency.
And if you look at the root word there:

Corrupt:
–adjective 1. guilty of dishonest practices, as bribery; lacking integrity; crooked: a corrupt judge.
2. debased in character; depraved; perverted; wicked; evil: a corrupt society.
3. made inferior by errors or alterations, as a text.
4. infected; tainted.
5. decayed; putrid.
–verb (used with object) 6. to destroy the integrity of; cause to be dishonest, disloyal, etc., esp. by bribery.
7. to lower morally; pervert: to corrupt youth.
8. to alter (a language, text, etc.) for the worse; debase.
9. to mar; spoil.
10. to infect; taint.
11. to make putrid or putrescent.
12. English Law. to subject (an attainted person) to corruption of blood.

Do you still honestly suggest that the word “corrupt” doesn’t carry a negative value judgement? Every single defination of the word carries a negative value judgement; hence, when you use it in the sentence “Therefore, homosexual acts are a corruption of the original intent,” you imply that they are a negative changes by the very word.

But, in your last post, you seemed to move away from using this defination, which is good:
Given this, you can see that I have left the “value judgement” of the issue to the reader. I have not said, “therefore, homosexuality is wrong.” I have only said it fails to follow the original intent of the biological nature of sex. Whether that is good or bad, that is, the “value” of it, is up to each person to make.
Fair enough.
 
WOAH! Eyes pop out!

Anyhoo…

My question is thus… if we live any lifestyle outside holiness, are we really where we should be with God? (This is regarding all things sinful, not just SSA/Homosexuality, but drunkedness, adultery, fornication, lust, etc… the whole Kit-and-Kaboodle!)

For instance:

1 - We are children of God.
2 - We are overcomers through Christ.
3 - We are dead to sin through Christ.
4 - We are temples of the Holy Spirit.
5 - We are to walk in the light and not the dark.

Many more scriptural things determine the way we walk… even the Sacred Scriptures itself states that it is to be used for “reproof, correction, …”

How can we just merely conform ourselves to society and pick and choose when the Bible blatantly states that it is an abomination? (Harsh words having been there, but it’s not the Word of God unless it IS the Word of God!)

I’ve made up my mind, however, it is NOT God’s will for anyone to be or suffer with homosexual/SSA attractions! However it may be that some homosexual/SSA relationships are “true love” (in their eyes), we are allowing the Evil One to step in and take control… Are we, the Church and Body of Christ, going to stand up and take back what Satan is using for his glory and turn it to be used as a way of ministering and life-changing for the glory of God?

Sorry if this blows some fuses… but it’s time to stop being philosophical and being faithful.

Peace be with you,
~ Brian
I respect your viewpoints, Brian, as long as you made them for yourself, which is what you have appeared to have done.
 
I respect your viewpoints, Brian, as long as you made them for yourself, which is what you have appeared to have done.
How terribly rude to minimize, mischaracterize and attempt to isolate the import of this man’s personal testimony of gaining victory over the distressing experience of SSA. I suppose in your agenda pursuit, nothing is off limits. Not a very compelling testimony on your part to win over converts to your side, for its lack of genuineness and basic kindness.
 
I mean that those with homo tendencies is unwelcome in the church and must be decommunicated.
I am not sure if there is a language barrier here or not.

The Church welcomes those with Same Sex Attraction. It is only acting on those tendencies that is considered sinful. The orientation itself is not sinful.
 
I am not sure if there is a language barrier here or not.

The Church welcomes those with Same Sex Attraction. It is only acting on those tendencies that is considered sinful. The orientation itself is not sinful.
whatever 4?
 
How terribly rude to minimize, mischaracterize and attempt to isolate the import of this man’s personal testimony of gaining victory over the distressing experience of SSA. I suppose in your agenda pursuit, nothing is off limits. Not a very compelling testimony on your part to win over converts to your side, for its lack of genuineness and basic kindness.
I told him I respected his viewpoints.

That’s rude… how?
 
Here’s my summary of the arguements against homosexuality:
  1. Homosexuality is harmful.
  2. Homosexuality doesn’t fit.
  3. People innately feel that homosexuality is wrong.
  4. Homosexuality is condemned in scripture.
  5. The Church says homosexuality is wrong.
  1. It is harmful because it does not contribute to the advancement of our collective survival. This is not a religious viewpoint, but a societal position. It is harmful because the homosexual relationship completely eliminates the chance of openess to life by it’s very anti-nature. It is harmful when it is legitimized by the courts and elevated to equal status with heterosexual marriage and parenthood because the natural state of marriage is to produce not only children, but many children to populate the state. This is why the state has always conferred benefits upon marriage. Not to “reward” a couple’s “love”, but for it’s own interests in survival. Homosexual parenting is harmful in that it deprives children of the necessary role model of mother and father. Additionally, the children of such unions are not the “flesh and blood” of the two homosexual parents but rather the offspring of artificial methods of procreation. These children are also deprived of natural siblings. Moreover, any children inside such unions must adapt to sectors of the populations that suffer from abnormally high levels of health problems, infectious social diseases, mental health problems, alcoholism, drug use, suicide rates, domestic abuse, child abuse and pedophilia. In the absence of long-term studies, no one knows all the effects of such abnormal conditions on the development of the child. In effect, these children are being made the guinea pigs of a cruel social experiment.
Sigmund Freud, who had little sympathy for religion of any kind, regarded the separation of intercourse from its procreative end as a model of sexual perversity. The founder of modern psychoanalysis wrote: “. . . it is a characteristic common to all the perversions that in them reproduction as an aim is put aside. This is actually the criterion by which we judge whether a sexual activity is perverse - if it departs from reproduction in its aims and pursues the attainment of gratification independently . . . Everything that . . . serves the pursuit of gratification alone is called by the unhonored title of ‘perversion’ and as such is despised.”
catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Faith/11-12-98/Morality2.html
Procreative (pro-ceptive) sex is rightly ordered; intentionally sterilized (contra-ceptive) sex is inherently disordered. Homosexual sex is contraceptive sex.
  1. Agreed
  2. Agreed. And not just in the Catholic Church. Not just in the Bible. It is condemned in the Torah, the NT, and the Koran. It was consistently condemned in the OT and clarified in the NT. As Christians, we accept the teaching of the NT and are not bound by OT teaching and tradition regarding Mosaic Laws.
  3. Again, not just the Catholic Church. And up until the early 20th century every state had anti-sodomy laws on the books. The state also recognized that homosexuality was disordered. Regardless of this, history tells us that a man named Jesus lived and walked this earth. He came to show us the way and to give His life as a ransom for all. Now, either He did this and was indeed who He says He was, or He was a liar or a nut. If I did not believe Him to be the Son of God, the Savior of man, than I would have to discount everything He said, for He would have proven Himself entirely absurd in making such a preprosterous claim. History also tells us that He left one Church and that this Church is protected by Christ from teaching error. That Church is the Catholic Church. I think I will stick with His word over yours.
Now that you know the source of our “objective morality”, I am curious about yours?
 
. . People shouldn’t refer to themselves as homosexual anyways. If someone has that affliction, then he or she should just say that they have same-sex attractions.
Why?
That’s exactly what homosexual means: same sex attraction.
The homo part comes from the Greek “omoios” which means same or similar, not from the Latin homo, man. It’s the same as in homogeneous or homologous or homonym.
Sorry, I just had to make that clarification
 
Why?
That’s exactly what homosexual means: same sex attraction.
The homo part comes from the Greek “omoios” which means same or similar, not from the Latin homo, man. It’s the same as in homogeneous or homologous or homonym.
Sorry, I just had to make that clarification
I concur with your clarification of the meaning of homosexual.

However, the confusion occurs when folks most often use homosexual to erroneously and/or purposely over identify a persons identity with their psychosexual identity. Example: Erroneous ~ “I am a homosexual”; Correction ~ “I am a person who has a homosexual attraction”; Erroneous ~ “What’s so bad about being a homosexual?”; Correction ~ “What’s so bad about being a person who has a homosexual attraction?”; …etc. A person’s psychosexual identity is an integral and pervasive aspect, by not an entire or encompassing aspect, of that person’s fundamental identity made in the image and likeness of God, i.e., God did not in His opriginal design create anyone with a [disordered] SSA.

A nuanced point of clarification, but none the less an essential distinction which homosexual aopologist seek to blur and eliminate in order to claim and substantiate that SSA [and homosexual acts] are not a deviation from the norm of God’s natural law design for human sexuality.
 
Now that you know the source of our “objective morality”, I am curious about yours?
I’m curious about this as well.

Are you a Benthamite? Seems to be the case from your posts, but I don’t want to attribute to you things which you don’t believe. I ask because you clearly reject Natural Law (which is not the same thing as Divine Law, BTW – see the works of John Finnis) and apparently reject Divine Revelation (as comprised in the various religious writings). What is the source of your objective morality?

Also, why do you keep rehashing arguments that gardenswithkids dismantled on this thread?

God Bless,
RyanL
 
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