Question regarding Indult Orders

[JohnSanzone5]

Hello,

I am trying to get a feel for where I should spend the rest of my life, in the Church.
I am open to the idea of joining the FSSP or Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest…
however, I have some questions:

(1) Do either of their seminaries (the 2 international FSSP or 1 international ICKSP seminary) offer the M.Div/Theo/Ma or licentiate which I could expect from a diocesan major seminary?
Its just that I want to continue my education further into grad/Doctoral, and I am concerned about the academic viability after 7 years spent in traditional formation and then ‘graduating’ with no degree.

(2) Does anybody know anything about the diocese sponsoring someone to go to either seminary, and then come back to be a diocesan priest?

(3) Does anyone know if such priests eventually attend further studies at the Pontifical uni.s and institutes, or any other higher education for that matter?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Hello,

I am trying to get a feel for where I should spend the rest of my life, in the Church.
I am open to the idea of joining the FSSP or Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest…
however, I have some questions:

(1) Do either of their seminaries (the 2 international FSSP or 1 international ICKSP seminary) offer the M.Div/Theo/Ma or licentiate which I could expect from a diocesan major seminary?
Its just that I want to continue my education further into grad/Doctoral, and I am concerned about the academic viability after 7 years spent in traditional formation and then ‘graduating’ with no degree.

I believe that they offer the pontifical degree.

(2) Does anybody know anything about the diocese sponsoring someone to go to either seminary, and then come back to be a diocesan priest?

These theologates are for the orders only as far as I know. They have, for the most part, a waiting list. I find it highly unlikely that a diocese would use one of these.

(3) Does anyone know if such priests eventually attend further studies at the Pontifical uni.s and institutes, or any other higher education for that matter?

That would be up to the order. As the orders you speak of work to spread the EF I doubt that they are working to train scholars.

 

[JohnSanzone5]

I believe that they offer the pontifical degree.

These theologates are for the orders only as far as I know. They have, for the most part, a waiting list. I find it highly unlikely that a diocese would use one of these.

That would be up to the order. As the orders you speak of work to spread the EF I doubt that they are working to train scholars.

Thank you, that last suggestion was very practical and made a lot of sense. Looks like I will have to weight my priorities, and see if being the ‘white elephant’ promoting the TLM in diocesan clergy (the increasing orthodoxy of my classmates, notwithstanding) might be the best option.

Although I do want a traditional formation…

 

[Young_Thinker]

Thank you, that last suggestion was very practical and made a lot of sense. Looks like I will have to weight my priorities, and see if being the ‘white elephant’ promoting the TLM in diocesan clergy (the increasing orthodoxy of my classmates, notwithstanding) might be the best option.

Although I do want a traditional formation…

Well, for one thing, if you wish to be clerically tonsured as a secular priest, you could, of course, just shave your head right before ordination. While that would be far less ceremonial, that it is what I may do if I enter a “liturgically non-traditional” order. It would still have the same meaning as a “real” tonsure.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Well, for one thing, if you wish to be clerically tonsured as a secular priest, you could, of course, just shave your head right before ordination. While that would be far less ceremonial, that it is what I may do if I enter a “liturgically non-traditional” order. It would still have the same meaning as a “real” tonsure.

Most tonsures that occur today are done when one is received into the community, not just before ordination. Also it is usually just a cutting of some of the hair, not a shaving of the head.

With out the ritual it would be meaningless, at least to me it would be.

But then we don’t tonsure. We are clothed in the habit when we enter the order (novitiate). At the end of the novitiate when we make our first profession we are given the the rest of the habit, the white mantle.

 

[Young_Thinker]

Most tonsures that occur today are done when one is received into the community, not just before ordination. Also it is usually just a cutting of some of the hair, not a shaving of the head.

With out the ritual it would be meaningless, at least to me it would be.

But then we don’t tonsure. We are clothed in the habit when we enter the order (novitiate). At the end of the novitiate when we make our first profession we are given the the rest of the habit, the white mantle.

Thank you, but I believe doing something without ritual is better than not doing it at all. Obviously, the crown-shaped tonsure would be more suitable, but it is often not available anymore. The habit is an excellent symbol and one of practice, but I think that something is missing without the initial cutting of hair.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Thank you, but I believe doing something without ritual is better than not doing it at all. Obviously, the crown-shaped tonsure would be more suitable, but it is often not available anymore. The habit is an excellent symbol and one of practice, but I think that something is missing without the initial cutting of hair.

This is where we disagree. I do not see anything missing.

Cutting ones own hair is just that, cutting your hair. Without the Church and the ritual it is just as meaningless as not doing it, IMHO.

 

[Ocarm]

Thank you, but I believe doing something without ritual is better than not doing it at all. Obviously, the crown-shaped tonsure would be more suitable, but it is often not available anymore. The habit is an excellent symbol and one of practice, but I think that something is missing without the initial cutting of hair.

Um, if you do go ahead and ‘enter a “liturgically non-traditional” order’ (whatever that would be) and decide to perform a self-tonsure, do you not imagine that your superiors might have something to say about this?

Hint: ‘I don’t think Brother Young Thinker quite understands that he doesn’t get to dictate how we choose to enact our centuries-old rituals. Perhaps he’s not ready for profession just yet.’

Or something.

 

[Young_Thinker]

This is where we disagree. I do not see anything missing.

Cutting ones own hair is just that, cutting your hair. Without the Church and the ritual it is just as meaningless as not doing it, IMHO.

All right, Brother.

 

[Young_Thinker]

Um, if you do go ahead and ‘enter a “liturgically non-traditional” order’ (whatever that would be) and decide to perform a self-tonsure, do you not imagine that your superiors might have something to say about this?

Hint: ‘I don’t think Brother Young Thinker quite understands that he doesn’t get to dictate how we choose to enact our centuries-old rituals. Perhaps he’s not ready for profession just yet.’

Or something.

But would I punished if I shaved my own head just before a rite of religious vows or ordination(I mean, do you have to ask for permission to or worry about being reprimanded for cutting your hair or shaving)? It is not like I would be imposing it upon others. I would like to keep a little symbolism even though it was recently taken away in an official sense.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

But would I punished if I shaved my own head just before a rite of religious vows or ordination(I mean, do you have to ask for permission to or worry about being reprimanded for cutting your hair or shaving)? It is not like I would be imposing it upon others. I would like to keep a little symbolism even though it was recently taken away in an official sense.

Again cutting your hair is just cutting your hair.

If you want to make some sort of pseudo ritual out of it then there could be issues. If the order has deemed that it is not part of their life and you are following constitutions and your superiors why would you need to do this? They may view it as you thinking you know better.

Anyways I think there would be “warning” signs for your formators and superiors long before you got to this point.

I do not really see the “symbolism” you are speaking of in cutting your hair. The rituals of the Church are done publicly, you doing this privately really means nothing and could cause issues for you.

If the tonsure means so much to you then I would take that as a sign that you are not called to an order that does not practice this ritual. Join one of those that do tonsure, most of the “traditional” groups do this.

 

[JohnSanzone5]

But would I punished if I shaved my own head just before a rite of religious vows or ordination(I mean, do you have to ask for permission to or worry about being reprimanded for cutting your hair or shaving)? It is not like I would be imposing it upon others. I would like to keep a little symbolism even though it was recently taken away in an official sense.

I get the feeling that the most important thing in the priesthood is ‘just going with the flow’.

There’s a saying in the military that really dampens the enthusiasm of young lieutenants, when issued from an old fart NCO: its to keep your head low, and don’t make a name for yourself–good or bad. If you’re looking at a career in the Church, liturgically/traditionally orthodox or no, it is best to be doing whatever everyone else is doing in terms of rituals.

That’s why it is critical that you join an order/diocese that you believe you can blend well with. Or so I have gathered…

 

[Young_Thinker]

Again cutting your hair is just cutting your hair.

If you want to make some sort of pseudo ritual out of it then there could be issues. If the order has deemed that it is not part of their life and you are following constitutions and your superiors why would you need to do this? They may view it as you thinking you know better.

Anyways I think there would be “warning” signs for your formators and superiors long before you got to this point.

I do not really see the “symbolism” you are speaking of in cutting your hair. The rituals of the Church are done publicly, you doing this privately really means nothing and could cause issues for you.

If the tonsure means so much to you then I would take that as a sign that you are not called to an order that does not practice this ritual. Join one of those that do tonsure, most of the “traditional” groups do this.

Thank you, but I wish to join an order, not a recent “indult society”(though this is certainly not meant to offend anyone, just a personal concern). Also, I do not think that I am suited for, say, the Trappists. I feel that the most important thing is whether one shares the group’s charism.

 

[Young_Thinker]

I get the feeling that the most important thing in the priesthood is ‘just going with the flow’.

There’s a saying in the military that really dampens the enthusiasm of young lieutenants, when issued from an old f**t NCO: its to keep your head low, and don’t make a name for yourself–good or bad. If you’re looking at a career in the Church, liturgically/traditionally orthodox or no, it is best to be doing whatever everyone else is doing in terms of rituals.

That’s why it is critical that you join an order/diocese that you believe you can blend well with. Or so I have gathered…

Thank you, Mr. Sanzone.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I get the feeling that the most important thing in the priesthood is ‘just going with the flow’.

There’s a saying in the military that really dampens the enthusiasm of young lieutenants, when issued from an old fart NCO: its to keep your head low, and don’t make a name for yourself–good or bad. If you’re looking at a career in the Church, liturgically/traditionally orthodox or no, it is best to be doing whatever everyone else is doing in terms of rituals.

That’s why it is critical that you join an order/diocese that you believe you can blend well with. Or so I have gathered…

If one is looking at religious life as a career then I do not think that they are called to it.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Thank you, but I wish to join an order, not a recent “indult society”(though this is certainly not meant to offend anyone, just a personal concern). Also, I do not think that I am suited for, say, the Trappists. I feel that the most important thing is whether one shares the group’s charism.

And part of the charism is the rites and rituals that one goes through during formation and living the life as your brothers do according to the constitutions and rule of the Order.

 

[Young_Thinker]

And part of the charism is the rites and rituals that one goes through during formation and living the life as your brothers do according to the constitutions and rule of the Order.

All right. I know that it is a poor analogy, but I think of it as like entering a political party- not everyone “tows the line” at all times or agrees with the “fine print” of every platform-position of his party. There are plenty of politicians who are like that(though it is not tolerated as much in countries with a parliamentary system like the U.K.). In the Church, obedience obviously comes into play, but I think that you know what I mean.

 

[Ocarm]

But would I punished if I shaved my own head just before a rite of religious vows or ordination(I mean, do you have to ask for permission to or worry about being reprimanded for cutting your hair or shaving)? It is not like I would be imposing it upon others. I would like to keep a little symbolism even though it was recently taken away in an official sense.

Religious in formation are not punished for having a shave, no.

But as Brother David has said, if it was clear that you were doing this because you thought you were better informed on how the rites of the institute should be enacted, then yes, of course you would be asked to explain yourself. And just in case it isn’t obvious, if you were to go ahead and do some such thing but in a surreptitious way that meant your superiors might not realise why you had cut your hair in this fashion (which doesn’t strike me as very likely), this would be even worse, because it would be an act of deliberate disobedience to the institute’s norms, and one that you were not willing to admit to.

You are completely free to ignore my words, because of course I have no influence or authority over you: but in the spirit of being transparent, I would have to say that I think you have a grossly distorted sense of how religious life works (and diocesan priesthood too, which although very different also demands a great deal of discipline and self-denial).

Previously I pointed out to you once that religious don’t get to plan their own careers; here I’m saying - along with other people - that religious don’t get to organise their own liturgies and formation; and in another thread I note that you were discussing the positions within the church hierarchy to which you’d like to advance (I assume light-heartedly). Also not a good idea.

Religious life is not a candy store into which you go and choose your favourite sweets, or where you can demand that the store owner orders the kind of sweets that you would like. You get what you’re given, and if you don’t like it, you’re in the wrong store. That doesn’t mean you’ll never get asked about your preferences: it just means that they aren’t necessarily taken into consideration when the final decisions are made.

In my own religious life, I’ve noticed that the less I ask for something specific, the more likely I am to get both what I need, and curiously, what I want as well. God can be trusted.

I have the feeling that I will be coming across as patronising or aggressive. I apologise unreservedly if that is so. But I think your understanding of the issues is lacking: and even engaging with these subjects in banter is problematic unless you’re putting a lot more time into actually doing something about your vocation. Spending hours on the forums enthusing about how great its all going to be in the future isn’t the best use of your energy, which is obviously huge. So I’d advise that you put that energy into following providence and avoid making too many plans.

 

[Young_Thinker]

Religious in formation are not punished for having a shave, no.

But as Brother David has said, if it was clear that you were doing this because you thought you were better informed on how the rites of the institute should be enacted, then yes, of course you would be asked to explain yourself. And just in case it isn’t obvious, if you were to go ahead and do some such thing but in a surreptitious way that meant your superiors might not realise why you had cut your hair in this fashion (which doesn’t strike me as very likely), this would be even worse, because it would be an act of deliberate disobedience to the institute’s norms, and one that you were not willing to admit to.

You are completely free to ignore my words, because of course I have no influence or authority over you: but in the spirit of being transparent, I would have to say that I think you have a grossly distorted sense of how religious life works (and diocesan priesthood too, which although very different also demands a great deal of discipline and self-denial).

Previously I pointed out to you once that religious don’t get to plan their own careers; here I’m saying - along with other people - that religious don’t get to organise their own liturgies and formation; and in another thread I note that you were discussing the positions within the church hierarchy to which you’d like to advance (I assume light-heartedly). Also not a good idea.

Religious life is not a candy store into which you go and choose your favourite sweets, or where you can demand that the store owner orders the kind of sweets that you would like. You get what you’re given, and if you don’t like it, you’re in the wrong store. That doesn’t mean you’ll never get asked about your preferences: it just means that they aren’t necessarily taken into consideration when the final decisions are made.

In my own religious life, I’ve noticed that the less I ask for something specific, the more likely I am to get both what I need, and curiously, what I want as well. God can be trusted.

I have the feeling that I will be coming across as patronising or aggressive. I apologise unreservedly if that is so. But I think your understanding of the issues is lacking: and even engaging with these subjects in banter is problematic unless you’re putting a lot more time into actually doing something about your vocation. Spending hours on the forums enthusing about how great its all going to be in the future isn’t the best use of your energy, which is obviously huge. So I’d advise that you put that energy into following providence and avoid making too many plans.

I appreciate your advice, sir.